Who else is excited for NEW Epic Elyd Edge?

[earlran]

I for one am totally LRing my level 20 Spellsinger healing/CC-specced bard with 44 cha to include TWF Will have to drop 2 DCs from my SF and GSF: Ench feats though...but Fascinate works wonders in epic anyway.

I already have 1 E-elyd, and am missing just shard for 2nd

Maybe with feat progression like:

Human Bonus: Toughness
Bard 1: TWF
Bard 3: Quicken (or Empower Healing, not sure yet, been healing epics solo without quicken for quite some time now)
Bard 6: Maximise
Bard 9: iTWF
Bard 12: Power Attack
Bard 15: Improved Crit: Piercing (or Quicken, suggestions?)
Bard 18: gTWF

What are your opinions/comments? How would you build for a dual E-elyd edge healing SS bard?

This opens up a host of cool drow builds as well, especially with their Cha buff mmmm

[gurth83]

I tought about similar build but i have got mixed feelings. On the one hand investing points in charisma forces CC speced bard but on the other hand there is not enought feats to handle full dps line, healing and CC from spells.
To do good CC by songs charisma is not needed. Even with starting 12 charisma DC of fascinate will be 23 skill + 15 item + 1 base 12 cha + 3 cha 6 item + 1 cha 2 tome + 1 cha 2 guild + 4 GH + 1 FC = 49 +d20. Bonus from charisma to mana is low 19 mn for each 2 cha. But if I were so close to second E-EE like you I think I would do similar build.

Things needed to be checked for me to take proper feats:
-quicken, how does it improve delay between time of starting spell casting and time of first attack. Think as SS, concentration will be quite good, so uninterruptible spell casting benefit from quicken is not worth to take this feat. Same with faster spell casting time benefit because mass cure spells are quite fast and bard don't have accest to mass heal. So reason to take quicken would be better dps if delay is reduced significantly.
-imp piercing, how does it increase dps for 2xE-EE vs enemy fortification, maybe its not worth to take it.
-does 2:06 min haste and displacenent is not annoying to keep. I had 15 bard (1:30) splash and without extened spell it was horror to keep those spells all the time.

[mournbladereigns]

I for one am totally LRing my level 20 Spellsinger healing/CC-specced bard with 44 cha to include TWF Will have to drop 2 DCs from my SF and GSF: Ench feats though...but Fascinate works wonders in epic anyway.

I already have 1 E-elyd, and am missing just shard for 2nd

Maybe with feat progression like:

Human Bonus: Toughness
Bard 1: TWF
Bard 3: Quicken (or Empower Healing, not sure yet, been healing epics solo without quicken for quite some time now)
Bard 6: Maximise
Bard 9: iTWF
Bard 12: Power Attack
Bard 15: Improved Crit: Piercing (or Quicken, suggestions?)
Bard 18: gTWF

What are your opinions/comments? How would you build for a dual E-elyd edge healing SS bard?

This opens up a host of cool drow builds as well, especially with their Cha buff mmmm

It looks like a pretty solid weap, and good option for a TWF bard. I'd be tempted to get a couple just to swing around on a sorc too bad I don't grind epics. I'd definitely take IC, 30% crit is nice DPS boost.

Epic Elyd Edge - (Weapon) +6 Rapier (dmg:2d6+6), Charisma +7, Superior Devotion VI, Silver, Alchemical, Screaming, Cacophony, Inspiring Echoes, Anthem, Empty Red Augment Slot [ML:20, BTC]

[Doganpc]

I think you only need TWF & OTWF, but then again i'm okay with things not being 100%

Dogan
its different.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think you only need TWF & OTWF, but then again i'm okay with things not being 100%

Dogan
its different.

No, just no.

OTWF does squat. +2 attack? Pffft.

You'll hit more often and do more damage with ITWF (14.3% DPS boost).

GTWF I guess is vaguely optional as an absolute last resort (but it still adds 12.5% DPS).

[Dendrix]

No, just no.

OTWF does squat. +2 attack? Pffft.

You'll hit more often and do more damage with ITWF (14.3% DPS boost).

GTWF I guess is vaguely optional as an absolute last resort (but it still adds 12.5% DPS).

OTWF is essential for a 2WF bard IMO. the BAB15 mean you still miss with Power Attack on in epics, even after destruction/improved desctruction.

[gwenniez]

OTWF is essential for a 2WF bard IMO. the BAB15 mean you still miss with Power Attack on in epics, even after destruction/improved desctruction.

bab 17 and 1 feat less wont make you connect everything magicly also :P. bards are pretty feat starved
because they dont get any choosable / good feats while they lvl up otwf should be the first thing to go
on most twf build imo.

[wax_on_wax_off]

OTWF is essential for a 2WF bard IMO. the BAB15 mean you still miss with Power Attack on in epics, even after destruction/improved desctruction.

Doesn't add up.

If you need OTWF to hit then you will hit 10% more often.

However, GTWF gives 12.5% more attacks. Therefore, GTWF will ALWAYS be a better choice, not just when you need don't need the +2 AB (which won't happen that often).

Cast inspire courage, set your APs to have maximum AB on inspire courage, use a divine power scroll, don't give up your crucial DPS (it will be low as it is without gimping it further).

[maddmatt70]

OTWF is essential for a 2WF bard IMO. the BAB15 mean you still miss with Power Attack on in epics, even after destruction/improved desctruction.

It just requires more gear and use of things like focusing chant and dp clickies. OTWF is not essential and only adds +2 to hit..

[wax_on_wax_off]

It just requires more gear and use of things like focusing chant and dp clickies. OTWF is not essential and only adds +2 to hit..

Perhaps I should have said that than doing all the maths to figure out that the only time OTWF is useful is in situations where less than 50% of your attacks are hitting anyway so either way if you take OTWF your DPS will be gimped by it.

[Emili]

It just requires more gear and use of things like focusing chant and dp clickies. OTWF is not essential and only adds +2 to hit..

Focusing chant is nice, both my bards have it anyway... and there are gear items lend a hand for the offset. You are very correct. Balancing out is while not something easy in consideration may be done... all is in scope within a few points.

Perhaps I should have said that than doing all the maths to figure out that the only time OTWF is useful is in situations where less than 50% of your attacks are hitting anyway so either way if you take OTWF your DPS will be gimped by it.

These builds do fine in the fact that "they" can handle themselves outside the scope of a grouping... and what they bring to a grouping is they fill in rough surfaces.

[Doganpc]

No, just no.

OTWF does squat. +2 attack? Pffft.

You'll hit more often and do more damage with ITWF (14.3% DPS boost).

GTWF I guess is vaguely optional as an absolute last resort (but it still adds 12.5% DPS).

Look, if you're going to go all DPS on us.. why the hell are you using a Rapier? Unless its in your offhand... Meh, I don't like your game.

Dogan
Its just not a Bard.

[Aerendil]

Look, if you're going to go all DPS on us.. why the hell are you using a Rapier? Unless its in your offhand... Meh, I don't like your game.

Dogan
Its just not a Bard.

Oh nos, it's a Rapier-wielding Bard. Must be a gimp, right?
I guess that Inspire Courage for +7/+7, and the weapon's enchantment itself of +6/+6 count for nothing. Nor the Bard's CHA, which is probably mid-to-high 30s, granting somewhere between +12 to +15 to hit and damage.

Yeah, that's terrible dps. They'd be silly to want to wield this thing.

PS - I agree with Emili, don't worry about PA. If you can squeeze it in, then by all means do it, but you're there to *assist* the dps groups, not *be* the dps. This also means you'll have a slightly better to-hit, and shouldn't need to worry about the lack of OTWF. For those times on bosses when you need the extra boost, use a Divine Power Clicky.
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, I:Crit, Maximise, Heighten, and Toughness should do the trick. If Human, maybe keep Extend as well - 4min Hastes are delicious.

[karl_k0ch]

Oh nos, it's a Rapier-wielding Bard. Must be a gimp, right?
I guess that Inspire Courage for +7/+7, and the weapon's enchantment itself of +6/+6 count for nothing. Nor the Bard's CHA, which is probably mid-to-high 30s, granting somewhere between +12 to +15 to hit and damage.

It's nice that bards can contribute to the party's dps even more.

But when mentioning the songs, you should keep in mind that the usual bard contributes his main part of DPS even when dead - consider a Kensai with Khopeshes and Haste Boost IV, or a Rogue with haste boost IV and the option to switch on PA more generously, or a Frenzied Berserker with its Enhanced Crit Multiplier, or a Paladin with Exalted Smite, or even a Tempest with it's 100% off-hand proc Chance. All of these classes will benefit more from the song than the bard himself does, and if you put these things together, eventually, and most certainly in raid groups, the DPS added passively via songs will be greater than the DPS contributed actively by the bard.

Because of that, I see no grave issues in not going Khopesh, or even TWF on a Bard. For example, I feel no remorse for rolling a S&B bard.

[Miow]

No, just no.

OTWF does squat. +2 attack? Pffft.

You'll hit more often and do more damage with ITWF (14.3% DPS boost).

GTWF I guess is vaguely optional as an absolute last resort (but it still adds 12.5% DPS).

he's right otwf is a dump feat if you need +2 to hit your in trouble already

[BoBoDaClown]

he's right otwf is a dump feat if you need +2 to hit your in trouble already

+2 to hit can be very helpful in epics.

That's why we max our inspire attack line - even that extra +1 to hit can be helpful.

Not saying that he can fit that feat, but it does have its uses. (I'd still rather have all the feats that have been listed)

[Chai]

No, just no.

OTWF does squat. +2 attack? Pffft.

You'll hit more often and do more damage with ITWF (14.3% DPS boost).

GTWF I guess is vaguely optional as an absolute last resort (but it still adds 12.5% DPS).

In epic quests, a miss is -100% damage. Angog the champion is a pretty easy to access test to see how your to-hit is holding up on epic bosses. Each + to hit counts. Sure fighters and barbarians dont need OTWF due to ginormous strength scores, but for bards who are built for melee, its a good feat if you wish to use two of the same weapon ~rapier or larger.

Or, why even melee at all if we arent worried about how often we miss.

[wax_on_wax_off]

In epic quests, a miss is -100% damage. Angog the champion is a pretty easy to access test to see how your to-hit is holding up on epic bosses. Each + to hit counts. Sure fighters and barbarians dont need OTWF due to ginormous strength scores, but for bards who are built for melee, its a good feat if you wish to use two of the same weapon ~rapier or larger.

Or, why even melee at all if we arent worried about how often we miss.

I think I did the maths on it.
Interesting observations:
If:
GTWF hits on a 2 = 12.5% in favour of GTWF
GTWF hits on a 5 = 0% perfectly balanced between the 2.
GTWF hits on a 10 = 5% in favour of OTWF
GTWF hits on a 15 = 18% in favour of OTWF
GTWF hits on a 20 = 266% in favour of OTWF
OTWF hits on a 20 = 12.5% in favour of GTWF

I'd say from this that I would definitely prefer OTWF in all circumstances. The difference between ITWF and OTWF is even more pronounced.

[maha0201]

Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Usage: Passive
When wielding a one handed weapon in your off-hand, you take penalties for fighting with two weapons as if you were wielding a light weapon in your off-hand.

From compedium, rapier is finesable so it is light wepon and OTWF does nothing for it...

On the other side if you would go 2x eFalcata ICS and WP: pesh you would have use of OTWF...

[wax_on_wax_off]

From compedium, rapier is finesable so it is light wepon and OTWF does nothing for it...

On the other side if you would go 2x eFalcata ICS and WP: pesh you would have use of OTWF...

Rapier is finessable but it is NOT considered a light weapon. Hence, if you equip dual rapier then OTWF will give +2 AB.

Alternatively, you could equip a light weapon to your offhand for occasions that you would miss though that isn't relevant to this conversation as there aren't any light weapons that I know of that use charisma for attack.