Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[Jaid314]

Well, no, actually it's a Turbine design choice -- a choice to do something they said they would not do.

It's a pity you chose to engage in abuse and repetition rather than lucid debate on the clear poiints I made, but such are forums I guess.

it's a pity that you can't understand that you could have already recouped your losses, had you chosen to do so. the fact that you apparently just threw points into crafting so you could leave it to sit there and rot, rather than do something with it and have fun, is your choice.

in the meanwhile, i'll continue to enjoy the characters that already have the equivalent of a better than mineral II weapon (or two weapons) for raids. i'll continue to enjoy the custom-crafted items that have rare abilities, or in some cases abilities that you simply don't ever find on random items at all, built into them. i'll continue to enjoy knowing that should i ever again want a low level underwater action item or feather falling item, i'm not going to be stuck with the choice of either shelling out stupid amounts of plat or going without (and that i can continue to add useful abilities as suffixes to keep those items current to my level later on). i'll continue enjoying not having to worry about finding appropriate skill bonus items on my rogues (and being able to get them all at earlier levels than is normally possible). and i'm quite glad that i have had these advantages for months now, rather than maybe eventually getting them again, in the distant future (after all - if you haven't gotten to the crafting level you want now, after several months time, guess what? odds are good it's going to take you another several month's time just to get your new crafter to where you are now, never mind surpassing your current level).

like i said, sucks to be you - you're miserable, i'm not. you feel cheated and betrayed because the devs are making it easier for you to level up crafting, i don't. i have to say, when someone does something that benefits you and it's making you unhappy, you're in a lousy spot, and i'm certainly glad to not be so ungrateful that i can't recognize a benefit when i see one.

[Jaid314]

So by my understanding of your argument your totally down with a full crafting xp reset since you've already reaped the benefits.

we're not facing a crafting reset. we're facing a reduction in the cost of leveling up crafting. the updates to crafting coming in U11 benefit *everyone* who has an interest in cannith crafting.

edit: that being said, i would say that i have definitely gained more than enough to compensate my costs. the DR breakers *alone* are a ridiculous benefit that saved me an absurd amount of platinum and/or farming in comparison. the simple fact is that if i only had a single TWF character, i have already saved myself *TEN* large devil scales. not to mention the *eight* large sulfurous stones, and various other larges it has already saved me.

[pjw]

...blah....

And again with the smug self-satisfaction and personal abuse that are the hallmarks of a failed argument.

If you could actually address why my points were wrong, rather than repeating "I'm clever and happy, you're not", it would advance the debate somewhat.

[Aaxeyu]

They're only "wasted" if you choose to start a new crafter.

Yeah, so what? Everything you do is ultimately "your choice".
It doesn't really mean anything.
Starting a new crafter is the rational choice many. It's what benefits them the most. And still, it means their previous crafting is pretty much wasted.
If we don't chose to start over, then our situation just becomes even worse.

[Aaxeyu]

Oberoni.

Rule zero is rule zero. Good is a matter of opinion. By design on the other hand, is matter of fact.

Telling us that your, mine, or anyone elses opinion is "better" than rule zero is oberoni.

No, I am telling you that you can't really defend something by saying "it's dedsigned that way".
That would imply that we can only improve accidents, which ofcourse is absurd.

[Aaxeyu]

Its the old well rehearsed response I see often on these boards when someone doesnt agree with you. They either lack understanding of the issue, didnt read the thread, or dont have evidence to back their issue up. This of course is false.

Yeah, It's a well used response, because there always seem to be a huge disconnect between what I am saying and what you are reading.

I completely understand the issue and the arguements behind it. We went through all this in multiple generations of playtesting back in the day for multiple editions, as well as managing servers in different incarnations of MUD and PW versions of D&D, each time new crafting systems were laid out. I have seen this very scenario play out about 8 times now throughout the years.

You see, I have about 25 years of experience and understanding behind this issue. Now go ahead and try to tell me that P&P, PW server management, and MUD experience is irrelevant to what goes on in DDO. Its the other wonderful well rehearsed response I see alot of on the forums when theres a disagreement in opinion, and the rules of the game dont back up those who are trying to tell me I dont understand the issue, so they declare all that irrelevant. That statement, which has actually already been made, is also false.

No, clearly even with all your experience you do not understand the issue. You think the problem is that we are worried about how other players decisions will affect us, and you are wrong. That is a figment of your imagination.
You can't find anything to back that statement up with. Just because you are grandfather DnD doesn't mean you are automatically correct.

All their efforts were not a complete waste of time.

I haven't crafted anything that I use.

And yes, the overexagerators ARE worried about other players

Where did anyone say that? Please.

[Truga]

I still don't understand why <insert profession>-bots are bad. Can someone explain?

Edit: Oh and, this isn't a troll post. I like making characters that can do something better/easier/faster than other characters.

[karl_k0ch]

I still don't understand why <insert profession>-bots are bad. Can someone explain?

As long as the aim of a good proficiency <profession> does not interfere with the character's overall performance, I do not see anything bad about it.
However, if you dedicate a part of your build's power to your <profession>, you'll contribute less to your party's aim to complete a quest, compared to the case where you would not have spent feats for the dragonmarks, for example.

Note that the Dragonmark of Finding benefits all players in your group, so you trade some build power for a chance of better loot, and Haggle can easily fit into a Cha-based Spellsinger build. The advantages of the Dragonmark of Making for the party are only marginal and situational, especially on an Artificer who gets these spells anyway.

Partly, this view of <profession>-bots is based on the expectation that the partymembers use builds which are optimized to complete quests, and not particularilty to craft, role-play or do other things which are not of importance for the time where ones groups with the bot.

[dunklezhan]

As long as the aim of a good proficiency <profession> does not interfere with the character's overall performance, I do not see anything bad about it.
However, if you dedicate a part of your build's power to your <profession>, you'll contribute less to your party's aim to complete a quest, compared to the case where you would not have spent feats for the dragonmarks, for example.

Note that the Dragonmark of Finding benefits all players in your group, so you trade some build power for a chance of better loot, and Haggle can easily fit into a Cha-based Spellsinger build. The advantages of the Dragonmark of Making for the party are only marginal and situational, especially on an Artificer who gets these spells anyway.

The dragonmark of making's repair skill bonus and repair spells are marginally useful, true. But they are useful, especially for a human arti as they can repair their pet without using spell points, WF will benefit when shrining if the arti is near without the having to actually invest in an otherwise useful skill... I can see benefits and synergies here beyond just crafting.

although my Arti is going to be a drow for Cha and Int, so its irrelevant to me

Edit: forget that, I just looked up True Reincarnation. I'd be pretty foolish to TR to drow given that it'll drop me from a 32 pt character to a 30 pt. maybe I will go human or stay WF...

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Here is something else that you do not know what it means.

Check my edit time, check your post time. Everyone's allowed to have a minor brain-fart from time to time.

I have noticed that people that get pwn'd throughout the entire thread often resort to this defence. Sadly saying the same thing different ways to get through has been lost. Cannot say I am surprised though

It's my first post in this thread. Oh, and here's a word you do not understand: "pwned", please look it up.

The problem is not the answer, the problem is the question. You do not need Making Marks or Artificer to have the 'best' crafter. It may make it easier, but a craftbot cannot craft anything a regular crafter cannot.

Another word you do not understand, look up "good" "better" and "best". You can even look at the post I made a few minutes before you did this one.

Actually I realize perfectly well that being a bot has no bearing on a character's viability in quests.

Taking 3 useless feats has bearing on a person's viability in a quest. You obviously don't have the same playstyle as I, and I can't fault you for that. But if you think that 3 feats are pretty much useless*, well then you don't belong in this discussion in the first place.

*I know I paraphrased you. But that's pretty much the message your giving out.

Honestly I had wondered when you would show up and try to bail your buddy out: too little, too late.

*laugh* I saw a fun thread, so I joined in. Problem?

[negativeprogression]

I really don't think a few more gimp builds is going to be noticable at all with the amount that are already out there.

I'm sure people will still have fun with them regardless.

[Truga]

Partly, this view of <profession>-bots is based on the expectation that the partymembers use builds which are optimized to complete quests, and not particularilty to craft, role-play or do other things which are not of importance for the time where ones groups with the bot.

And this is where the binding of gear really starts to shine. An artificer that could on the fly craft anything needed and lend it to a party member would be a great asset to anyone not yet fully geared out. Instead, crafting is only possible at a silly altar (with the amount of magic power we have at higher levels, conjuring a makeshift workshop should be child's play), and every item you craft binds to the character that uses it.

Artificers with enough crafting levels should also be able to temporarily infuse any kind of effect available on shards onto people's gear, for the cost of a few essences. Things like clickies at artificer's caster level, adding prefixes/suffixes to people's weapons/armors, etc. Named items excluded of course. (I think a holy burst esos of glob would be a bit over the top :P)

Also, we need warforged modules! Craft yourself some feet with wheels, and roll around with permanent haste (only the movement bonus part ofc), exchange handwraps for some artificer created arm attachments that have blades instead of fists for slashing damage monks, fun things like that :<

P.S. I'm still of the opinion that gear binding not only helps the economy suffer, it also means that one _must_ grind content they don't like if they want gear from that content, instead of grinding some other content and buying their gear instead by selling the rare items from the content they did. And then there's crafting being useless to even level, unless you need it for yourself or your close friends, because anything you build is bound, and at best either makeshift gear until you get your raid/epic equipment, or DR breakers for very specific enemies. *yawn*

[Absolute-Omniscience]

And yes, the overexagerators ARE worried about other players being able to take advantage of a new feature simply because they started crafting later than they did, or waited to see how things turned out before devoting time and resources to crafting, which was literally declared an open beta and proclaimed that it could and likely would change multiple times.

Wrong.
You list all your past achievements and all your infinite knowledge, yet you wrongly assume that everyone against it has the same motives. You are obviously biased, and listing your past experiences does not change that.
I'm currently level 11/10/9 in crafting with my main and only crafting character so I'm not against this argument because "other players will be taking advantage of a new feature".
I am against this change because it's utterly absurd that I should have to roll a gimp if I want to have the best crafter.

PS: Using hyperboles in discussions are very common, even when debating serious issues in real life. Get used to it.

[Chai]

No, I am telling you that you can't really defend something by saying "it's dedsigned that way".
That would imply that we can only improve accidents, which ofcourse is absurd.

And Im telling you that thats oberoni to go against rule zero and act like your way is better, and doing so I might add simply because your way suits your needs.

No, we can improve on changes or additions to game design. But when something already exists and isnt broken, theres no reason to fix it.

[Chai]

Wrong.
You list all your past achievements and all your infinate knowledge, yet you wrongly assume that everyone against it has the same motives. You are obviously biased, and listing your past experiences does not change that.
I'm currently level 11/10/9 in crafting with my main and only crafting character so I'm not against this argument because "other players will be taking advantage of a new feature".
I am against this change because it's utterly absurd that I should have to roll a gimp if I want to have the best crafter.

PS: Using hyperboles in discussions are very common, even when debating serious issues in real life. Get used to it.

Incorrect. Overexageration is what it is regardless of frequency of use and frequency of acceptance. Opinions cant be wrong. You are equally biased, just to the other side of the debate. Best is a matter of opinion, and you are assuming everyone shares your opinion when they clearly do not. I dont agree that they should change the game to confer to the vocal minorities opinion, when there is a rule zero that has been in place for quite some time now that works just fine.

Some players wanted to be on the cutting edge, and did so knowing full well they were using a live beta with the disclaimer in multiple places (crafting documentation AND contract you sign when creating your account) that the gameplay experience can and likely will change. Usually the stuff that gets changed the most are the game mechanics that are on the cutting edge. Using your own words, get used to it, because this IS usually how it works in gameplay design. You want to participate in brand new cutting edge game mechanics. Get used to those being the mechanics that change the most to make them fit in with the rest of the game.

[Aaxeyu]

No, we can improve on changes or additions to game design. But when something already exists and isnt broken, theres no reason to fix it.

Something that is not "broken" can still be improved.
"It should not change because it's designed this way" is a horrible argument.

[Khurse]

Yeah, so what? Everything you do is ultimately "your choice".
It doesn't really mean anything.
Starting a new crafter is the rational choice many. It's what benefits them the most. And still, it means their previous crafting is pretty much wasted.
If we don't chose to start over, then our situation just becomes even worse.

??

That's fine if you feel that way, but let's admit there's a difference between "I'm choosing to go a different route with my crafter" and "Turbine has set this up so that it's the only choice" as is being suggested by some.

Will the crafting be faster with a new toon? Possibly, even probably.

Does your current crafter effectively gain levels and need less XP to cap post U11? Yes.


Some of us aren't choosing to start a new crafter, some people are. <- To me that suggests teh change is OK, it has attracted the interest of some who feel they are better served by doing so, others like myself feel it's not something we want to do.

[Khurse]

Well, no, actually it's a Turbine design choice -- a choice to do something they said they would not do.

.

This brings up another question

Does anyone actually have a link or the actual quote where Turbine promises tehy will never do this sort of thing?

I keep seeing it referenced, but so far that's all I've seen. Never seen teh actual quote, or anything other than people claiming that it's said somewhere.

I'll admit in advance I don't actually care even if there is a quote saying "Artificers will not effect crafting" because I'm pretty sure they're allowed to change their minds, I am just curious if there is an actual quote, or if it's just something someone said, and everyone decided it must be true.

[Aaxeyu]

??

That's fine if you feel that way, but let's admit there's a difference between "I'm choosing to go a different route with my crafter" and "Turbine has set this up so that it's the only choice" as is being suggested by some.

Yes, there is a difference between those to statements. However it's the second one that best describes the current events.

Some of us aren't choosing to start a new crafter, some people are. <- To me that suggests teh change is OK, it has attracted the interest of some who feel they are better served by doing so, others like myself feel it's not something we want to do.

"it has attracted the interest of some who feel they are better served by doing so" lol, that's a funny way of saying that some people will have their previous efforts wasted.
Those who aren't choosing to start a new crafter are either above a certain crafting level or are simply acting irrational. For the rational persons below the threshold there is not much of a choice, as one option is so much better than the other.

[Aaxeyu]

And yes, you ARE worried about other players

If that was the case then we would not state that the problem only comes to the people who are below a certain crafting level.