Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[dkyle]

- the theoretical future costs if the cap is boosted (which it is expected it will be) are irrelevant.

Only if you're willing to assume that Bound crafting won't ever increase. I would not gamble on a level cap on a newly introduced system in an MMO not ever being raised.

Even still, for just reaching 100, I'm better off starting over. Others might not be, but they'd still be gambling on future bound cap raises if they continued leveling their current crafter.

- the cost of feat swapping at level 20 (well, level 19, just before you take level 20) is negligible, actually.

Very interesting and well thought out, but not really that important. Leveling a gimpy DMarked character isn't that big of an issue to me. Leveling a character that has no future past capping it is the issue. And once you swap in those feats, it's a crafting bot.

- if it is cheaper for you to stop crafting now and start crafting later on an artificer, that means it is still cheaper for you overall.

This is true. However, I would greatly prefer a modification to the crafting system to make it cheaper that didn't involve throwing away my previous effort, and making a lame crafting bot.

Making a part of an MMO harder/easier/grindier/less-grindy/whatever, that doesn't bother me. That's par for the course. Doing it in a way that renders my previous effort completely pointless? That's what bothers me. That's not business as usual, at least not from what I've seen in DDO.

yes, not as cheap as it would be for someone who didn't craft at all, but at that point, you're getting into pointless comparisons which everyone is claiming they aren't making. you're complaining about what someone else is paying.

But it not being as cheap as if I'd sat out of crafting and kept my essences and not participated is a legitimate comparison. Is it in Turbine's best interest to make non-participation in Live "betas" more rewarding than participation?

you will either get closer to your goal in crafting after U11 goes live, or you will at the very least not get any further, regardless of what you choose to do. there is no outcome where you personally, or anyone else, are any worse off. regardless of how it happens, U11 is going to make it cheaper for you to reach the crafting level you would like to have.

Yes, I'm closer to my desired crafting level after U11. Doesn't mean I have to like the things that come with it. Still doesn't change that I'd be even closer had I not participated as much in the Beta. Waste means something.

But, even though I'm disagreeing here, I have to say it's refreshing to actually be responding to someone with some solid arguments, and that actually understands the issues.

[toughguyjoe]

Only if you're willing to assume that Bound crafting won't ever increase. I would not gamble on a level cap on a newly introduced system in an MMO not ever being raised.

I would not have gambled on a system that was labeled as unfinished.

btw...

It was nice of you to speak plainly to the person in the post above this, and I hope that you are able to post reasonably to others in the future.

[toughguyjoe]

But it not being as cheap as if I'd sat out of crafting and kept my essences and not participated is a legitimate comparison. Is it in Turbine's best interest to make non-participation in Live "betas" more rewarding than participation?

This seems to be the crux of the biscuit.

They did not make your participation more or less rewarding. When U11 drops you can make any shard you can make now, and most likely your increase in levels will create the ability to make things you could not.

They changed the cost. They said upfront that things could and probably would change. I understand your frustration.

In the future I would suggest you opt out of any game testing at all.

[Chai]

Just because it's by design doesn't mean it's good and should stay the same forever.

Oberoni.

Rule zero is rule zero. Good is a matter of opinion. By design on the other hand, is matter of fact.

Telling us that your, mine, or anyone elses opinion is "better" than rule zero is oberoni.

[Chai]

I know that you have already made up your mind, but I just want to get this out there.

This has got nothing to do with worrying about how others play.
Saying that means that you have not understood the arguments being made.

Its the old well rehearsed response I see often on these boards when someone doesnt agree with you. They either lack understanding of the issue, didnt read the thread, or dont have evidence to back their issue up. This of course is false. I completely understand the issue and the arguements behind it. We went through all this in multiple generations of playtesting back in the day for multiple editions, as well as managing servers in different incarnations of MUD and PW versions of D&D, each time new crafting systems were laid out. I have seen this very scenario play out about 8 times now throughout the years.

You see, I have about 25 years of experience and understanding behind this issue. Now go ahead and try to tell me that P&P, PW server management, and MUD experience is irrelevant to what goes on in DDO. Its the other wonderful well rehearsed response I see alot of on the forums when theres a disagreement in opinion, and the rules of the game dont back up those who are trying to tell me I dont understand the issue, so they declare all that irrelevant. That statement, which has actually already been made, is also false.

This issue while new to most, is old as the hills for me. Ive seen all the arguements made on both sides, and the same level of overexageration each time. Players arent being screwed over due to this issue. All their efforts were not a complete waste of time. And yes, the overexagerators ARE worried about other players being able to take advantage of a new feature simply because they started crafting later than they did, or waited to see how things turned out before devoting time and resources to crafting, which was literally declared an open beta and proclaimed that it could and likely would change multiple times.

[Chai]

This seems to be the crux of the biscuit.

They did not make your participation more or less rewarding. When U11 drops you can make any shard you can make now, and most likely your increase in levels will create the ability to make things you could not.

They changed the cost. They said upfront that things could and probably would change. I understand your frustration.

In the future I would suggest you opt out of any game testing at all.

Yeap exactly. The time invested still has the same results. Theres no penalty.

If players want to be on the cutting edge, they take that risk knowingly. Its just like when players build on things they know are either overpowered or not WAI. Those are on the cutting edge now, but when the changes get pushed through, there will still be forum riots even though everyone knows darn well what they were doing.

Its OK though. These crafting discussions are mere brushfires compared to the barbarian past life feat riots of 2012. Oh darn, I wasnt supposed to talk about the future....

[Jaid314]

Only if you're willing to assume that Bound crafting won't ever increase. I would not gamble on a level cap on a newly introduced system in an MMO not ever being raised.

and yet, as i pointed out, there is an option whereby you can, through dedication, make someone else pay to increase your crafting from that point on. it works now, and it will help you futureproof your crafter... and by the time it raises again, hopefully you will have gotten above the new useful level.

Even still, for just reaching 100, I'm better off starting over. Others might not be, but they'd still be gambling on future bound cap raises if they continued leveling their current crafter.

and for you, and them, it is still going to be cheaper than it otherwise would be. in the meanwhile, they can either restart if it's worthwhile to them, or hand it off to one of their other characters if it is not. or, they can contribute to other people reaching cap, which can potentially allow them to gain the benefit of crafting in any event.

Very interesting and well thought out, but not really that important. Leveling a gimpy DMarked character isn't that big of an issue to me. Leveling a character that has no future past capping it is the issue. And once you swap in those feats, it's a crafting bot.

well, *someone* threw a fit (not a very big one) about the cost of feat-swapping at level 20.

This is true. However, I would greatly prefer a modification to the crafting system to make it cheaper that didn't involve throwing away my previous effort, and making a lame crafting bot.

*shrug* it is what it is. you'd need a lot more player outrage to get the devs to listen. frankly, i'm still shocked they listened when we told them that making raid loot a crafting ingredient was a bad idea, and look how much rage that took? and in any case, it's still going to be cheaper, and easier, to level (regardless of which path you choose, restarting or not), in U11 (since exp requirements are also dropping, that is).

Making a part of an MMO harder/easier/grindier/less-grindy/whatever, that doesn't bother me. That's par for the course. Doing it in a way that renders my previous effort completely pointless? That's what bothers me. That's not business as usual, at least not from what I've seen in DDO.

your previous effort is only pointless because you chose not to take advantage of it. granted, the benefits of being able to craft, say, +10 balance items is certainly not *huge*, but you can still make (for example), an item which has an ability you *do* want (say, a 33% absorb item) and add in a semi-useful-but-not-critical ability on the side (say, sonic resist 10 or something like that).

But it not being as cheap as if I'd sat out of crafting and kept my essences and not participated is a legitimate comparison. Is it in Turbine's best interest to make non-participation in Live "betas" more rewarding than participation?

a legitimate comparison, perhaps. but as you pointed out, you don't resent the level 35 stuff, which you got to benefit from earlier because of your early adoption of crafting. the fact that you didn't also choose to benefit from, say, spell damage clickies, vampirism, aligned, non-holy alignment bursts, feather falling, +2 spell focus, wounding of puncturing (which is still quite good even though it doesn't instakill, and can quickly disable enemies in the mid levels especially) or other shards beyond 45 is hardly the fault of the devs.

Yes, I'm closer to my desired crafting level after U11. Doesn't mean I have to like the things that come with it. Still doesn't change that I'd be even closer had I not participated as much in the Beta. Waste means something.

on the contrary, if you hadn't participated in the beta you likely wouldn't have deconstructed anything, and would likely have a lot fewer essences anyways. you would also not have had the benefit of crafting extending back to when you started making things (for example, i got to make some lawful outsider bane shards before they got medium scales added; i got to benefit somewhat from deconstructing crafted shards; i got to benefit from having access to all those crafted shards much earlier than i otherwise would; and so forth)

i'm stuck in the same bracket as you, roughly, from the sound of it (arcane 58 i think, divine only 48, elemental somewhere in the middle), but i simply chose to use the crafting that i do have where appropriate. perhaps it's because i like to TR a bit more, but the fact that i can just hang on to a single item for each slot for my next life, and that i don't *need* to farm until i have all my raid gear, and yet on my next life i can still expect to be reasonably well-equipped on all my characters (in particular the ones that i don't primarily focus on) has been a nice advantage. i'll admit, i'm even slightly tempted to switch my current crafter (which is not my main, but which is also not a character that i had planned on turning into an artificer) into a crafting character, and this is after farming out a number of items for that character's planned next life (acrobat, so it's not like all those quarterstaves are exactly high demand on all my other characters). in the end, i figure i'll probably just keep crafting on that character, simply because i don't feel the need to zerg to the end of crafting. in fact, if i *had* zerged crafting, i would have benefitted considerably from that each step of the way; ranging from the RUCrazy method of leveling, to getting cheap greater banes, to being able to get the best stuff much earlier, and even extending to having the best shards available now (and for example not needing to have worried about getting, say, tharne's goggles on my rogue before TRing because all the stuff i actually cared about i would have already gotten).

ultimately, it was a choice on your part to not make use of your crafting options beyond what you had available at level 35.

edit: to put it another way: if it was really that important to me that i have crafting to a certain level, i would have it there. the very fact that i did not rush to level 100 crafting, or the cap at any point along the way, indicates that it was not a key priority for me. if it isn't a key priority, then there's no point in getting upset.

even the poorest crafters *could* have made 100, if it was really truly important to them. sure, the RUCrazy method may have been agonizing, but ultimately, if it was a priority we could all have done it, and we could all have crafting levels to the point where there is no need to reset right now (and even be making other people pay for our crafting exp gains). the fact that we don't have crafting capped, or near capped, shows that we have been fairly casual in our efforts. well, now it's about to get even more casual for everyone, and even more casual beyond that for people who choose to make crafting bots. i simply choose to be happy that it is becoming more casual (as it has pretty much every single time they updated crafting - at first, you couldn't deconstruct shards, and you didn't get exp for deconstructing at all iirc. only recently did we start to get a very decent amount of plat from deconstructing, not that far off of what a non-haggler would get from selling if i'm not mistaken. crafting exp requirements have gone down a couple of times as well, crafting cooldown has decreased - ultimately, in almost every update, crafting has gotten easier and more accessible, and the time spent crafting in previous updates would have been better spent in the later updates. frankly, i expect this trend to continue; if you want your crafting to be casual, just keep waiting. i give it good odds that cannith favor will eventually grant a feat that helps with cannith crafting, exp costs will go down again, and at some point they'll probably let us deconstruct stacks of shards at a time and turn multiple greaters into lessers at the same time. and who knows what else. with few exceptions, the early adopters that maxed out crafting have been the ones that paid the most, and that has been consistent the whole way through, with relatively few changes being beneficial to them.

[mystafyi]

We went through all this in multiple generations of playtesting back in the day for multiple editions

Chai, back in the day my DM got modules from tsr to playtest. Was insane amount of deaths and was great fun for all. our group was so 'terrible' we always ran out of their premade characters. Holy chit... was that really 25 years ago.................

[pjw]

But it not being as cheap as if I'd sat out of crafting and kept my essences and not participated is a legitimate comparison. Is it in Turbine's best interest to make non-participation in Live "betas" more rewarding than participation?

Yes, this is what mostly gets my goat. Being dragged forcibly down a helical inclined plane is never fun.

And that is basically what happened to anyone who spent resources in the beta levelling crafting on anything other than a level 1 human.

I had the expectation that the resources I spent would not effectively be wasted, which is what has happened for the reasons well described elsewhere in this thread.

[Jaid314]

Yes, this is what mostly gets my goat. Being dragged forcibly down a helical inclined plane is never fun.

And that is basically what happened to anyone who spent resources in the beta levelling crafting on anything other than a level 1 human.

I had the expectation that the resources I spent would not effectively be wasted, which is what has happened for the reasons well described elsewhere in this thread.

they have not been wasted, unless by your own choice. you have had the benefit of being able to craft shards the entire time, which you would not have had if you had not invested anything at all.

those who have not invested, can make themselves... *drum roll* boots of jump +1! me? i can make jump +10 if i want, but more importantly i can make life shield and invulnerability and holy and regular bane weapons and aligned and feather falling and all kinds of other cool stuff, any time i want. which is generally much much better than getting +1 jump boots whenever i want.

[Khurse]

Wow, another one.


Again (as mentioned here)

Post U11 any crafter will be able to craft exactly the same things they could Pre U11.
(Assuming the Xp changes go through as on Lammania ,the crafter will gain enough levels to be able to craft more)

Post U11 crafters will require the same amount of XP to cap as they did pre U11. (again unless XP changes go through,in which case it will be less)


Given these two facts- and they are facts, nothing else is changing (at the moment anyway) your crafter has not in any way,shape,or form been "nerfed" or "rendered obsolete".

Unless you seriously want to argue that (assuming the Xp changes stay like they are on Lammania)
A) Requiring less XP to cap post U11 and
B) Gaining levels to reflect the new XP changes as soon as U11 goes live

Are somehow a nerf.

[pjw]

they have not been wasted....

This has been gone over many times before.

1. Like (probably) anyone else who invested heavily in crafting, I want to craft high level stuff.

2. To do that, I need to achieve high levels. Over 100, since I want to do paralyzers, smiiters etc.

3. To get to my desired levels given my current levels, I would be irrational to do so on my current crafter. The reasons for this are well described, with numerical backing elsewhere.

4. I therefor will start a new human arti (if I don't just lose all interest in crafting).

5. The result: all the resources spent levelling my current crafter will be both unrecoverable and have no value in the future. This is as close to 'wasted' as I think it it possible to come.

I *would* have been better off ignoring the beta. I wish I had.

[pjw]

Wow, another one.

Wow, another one.

your crafter has not in any way,shape,or form been "nerfed" or "rendered obsolete".

Not the point. I've never claimed to be nerfed in any way. And, before you bring it up: nor have I complained about other people doing it easier. These are irrelevant.

The points are:

- I would have been considerably better off not participating and providing feedback. This is a bad lesson to learn.

- The resources spent will ultimately be wasted (as per my previous post). If you don't like the word 'wasted', then replace it with 'unrecoverable and of no value'.

[Khurse]

Wow, another one.



Not the point. I've never claimed to be nerfed in any way. And, before you bring it up: nor have I complained about other people doing it easier. These are irrelevant.

The points are:

- I would have been considerably better off not participating and providing feedback. This is a bad lesson to learn.

- The resources spent will ultimately be wasted (as per my previous post). If you don't like the word 'wasted', then replace it with 'unrecoverable and of no value'.

They're only "wasted" if you choose to start a new crafter. personally,I'm happy with crafting on my main and have no intention of creating an Artificer, let alone one to restart my crafting. That's for me though, if you (or anyone else)feel you want to start a new crafter ,more power to you.

Turbine is not saying (yet) that everyone can craft until level 150, but artificers can craft extra stuff from level 151-160.

But this is just another option that Turbine has presented, my crafter will be ahead of where he is now and I will need fewer Xp to cap when U11 goes live.
You feel it's not worth your time to continue to craft on your current toon, but that's a choice, in no way is it mandatory or required to drop crafting on your current toon and start leveling up an Artificer.

[Jaid314]

This has been gone over many times before.

1. Like (probably) anyone else who invested heavily in crafting, I want to craft high level stuff.

2. To do that, I need to achieve high levels. Over 100, since I want to do paralyzers, smiiters etc.

3. To get to my desired levels given my current levels, I would be irrational to do so on my current crafter. The reasons for this are well described, with numerical backing elsewhere.

4. I therefor will start a new human arti (if I don't just lose all interest in crafting).

5. The result: all the resources spent levelling my current crafter will be both unrecoverable and have no value in the future. This is as close to 'wasted' as I think it it possible to come.

I *would* have been better off ignoring the beta. I wish I had.

1) ok.

2) you can't. those recipes don't exist. evidently, for you at least, it *has* been a waste.

3) ok.

4) ok.

5) no. they are only a waste if you have chosen not to make use of them. if you have made use of them in the past, then you have benefited from them already. perhaps not as much as you might like, but to pretend that you have not, or at the very least, that you could not have, benefited from them is utter falsehood.

*you* chose to not make any of the useful shards available to you. therefore, *you* chose to waste your crafting levels.

personally, i have made things with my crafting levels. i've made various shards, which i have benefited from, and i have not had to wait for them. and i can continue to benefit from those crafting levels, right now, and will be able to continue benefiting from them until i surpass them on another character (which i may or may not bother doing).

example: if i have a vehicle now, and intend to own another vehicle 20 years from now, it is likely that the vehicle i would have 20 years from now will be a better one than what i have now. i would have to be an idiot to think that the vehicle i have now is rendered worthless because of the vehicle i would have in 20 years, however, because the advantage of a vehicle that i have now is that i can use that vehicle right now, and not in 20 years. if i were to leave that vehicle i have right now parked and never go anywhere on the basis that i will have a better one in 20 years, and then ran and complained to the dealership 19 years from now that i have gotten no benefit from my car because i chose not to drive it due to eventually getting a better car later on, how do you suppose they would react?

the same is true with crafting: the crafting level you have now (and presumably have had previous to this exact instant) can be used, right now (and previously) to benefit you. if you left it parked someplace and never used it, that was your choice, and is not anyone else's fault. if *you* have chosen to waste those resources, by not making use of the benefits that those resources made available to you, then you have no grounds to complain.

[pjw]

5) no. they are only a waste if you have chosen not to make use of them.

Rather than restating your opinion then using a dubious analogy, tell me which parts of this statement:

5. The result: all the resources spent levelling my current crafter will be both unrecoverable and have no value in the future. This is as close to 'wasted' as I think it it possible to come.

are not true, or do not follow from the other parts of my post.

- When the new artificer is levelled, they will be higher level than my old crafter. True.

- When they are higher level, the old crafter will have no useful role in crafting. True.

- The new crafter will get to the higher level cheaper than continuing to level the old crafter to that same level. True.

Result: the resources spent on the old crafter will be unrecoverable and of no value.

I call that wasted, you call it something else. Lets agree on 'unrecoverable and of no value'.

[pjw]

They're only "wasted" if you choose to start a new crafter. .

Well...yeah.

But with the changed coming, if I continue to craft, I would be insane to do anything else.

The choice from this perspective is:

- make my old crafter redundant and therefor all resources ultimately unrecoverable and of no value (I'd call that waste)

- continue with my old crafter and spend considerably more resources than necessary (I'd also call that waste)

[Jaid314]

Rather than restating your opinion then using a dubious analogy, tell me which parts of this statement:

5. The result: all the resources spent levelling my current crafter will be both unrecoverable and have no value in the future. This is as close to 'wasted' as I think it it possible to come.

are not true, or do not follow from the other parts of my post.

- When the new artificer is levelled, they will be higher level than my old crafter. True.

- When they are higher level, the old crafter will have no useful role in crafting. True.

- The new crafter will get to the higher level cheaper than continuing to level the old crafter to that same level. True.

Result: the resources spent on the old crafter will be unrecoverable and of no value.

I call that wasted, you call it something else. Lets agree on 'unrecoverable and of no value'.

and let's call it what it really is: your choice to have made it so.

you could have enjoyed the benefits of crafting this entire time. you didn't. that was your choice. you can gripe and moan all you want, but it does not change that you made that choice to not use your crafting levels, and you decided to not benefit from them while you had them. not me, not turbine, not anyone else, just you.

i have crafting levels too, and they don't go above the threshold to be useful. in theory, i should also make a new crafter.

if i do so, will the resources spent on my current crafter be unrecoverable and of no value? no. because i used them. i am benefiting from them right now, and have been benefiting from them for some time. i got to enjoy having a crafter that could make various useful items, and i didn't have to wait until i made an artificer to enjoy them. i have used them to make items and weapons that would have otherwise been much harder to get, i have used them to make my gaming experience more fun, and they have already been recovered and their value has already been earned back as a result.

we both made some investment in crafting. you decided to leave the rewards to rot, i didn't. sucks to be you, but you only have yourself to blame for that choice.

[pjw]

and let's call it what it really is: your choice to have made it so.

Well, no, actually it's a Turbine design choice -- a choice to do something they said they would not do.

It's a pity you chose to engage in abuse and repetition rather than lucid debate on the clear poiints I made, but such are forums I guess.

[wolflordnexus]

and let's call it what it really is: your choice to have made it so.

you could have enjoyed the benefits of crafting this entire time. you didn't. that was your choice. you can gripe and moan all you want, but it does not change that you made that choice to not use your crafting levels, and you decided to not benefit from them while you had them. not me, not turbine, not anyone else, just you.

i have crafting levels too, and they don't go above the threshold to be useful. in theory, i should also make a new crafter.

if i do so, will the resources spent on my current crafter be unrecoverable and of no value? no. because i used them. i am benefiting from them right now, and have been benefiting from them for some time. i got to enjoy having a crafter that could make various useful items, and i didn't have to wait until i made an artificer to enjoy them. i have used them to make items and weapons that would have otherwise been much harder to get, i have used them to make my gaming experience more fun, and they have already been recovered and their value has already been earned back as a result.

we both made some investment in crafting. you decided to leave the rewards to rot, i didn't. sucks to be you, but you only have yourself to blame for that choice.

So by my understanding of your argument your totally down with a full crafting xp reset since you've already reaped the benefits.