Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[danotmano1998]

It's an opinion, sure, but calling it "quite subjective" blindly denies the objective facts its based on. I will, provided I craft long-term, spend fewer essences by starting over, than continuing on. This is a fact. In doing so, I will have wasted the majority of the effort I've already put into crafting. This is a fact.

I would like to see your math on this, to be honest. You're basing your argument on a premise that has yet to be proved. Is it REALLY fewer essences to start over from level 20 as opposed to your current level?

Let's say you have a current level of 70. You start over with your shiny new Artificer. Let's pretend he's already maxed in crafting. So in essence you've just lost 50 levels of crafting? How is this not MORE expensive than just keeping on with what you've done? Have you not just penalized yourself far worse than Turbine supposedly did?

[Aaxeyu]

No, the fact that it is a waste is quite subjective. I certainly don't see it as a waste.

Just because you do suddenly doesn't change the definition of subjective.

Whether you see it as a waste or not is irrelevant. The fact that it is a waste still remains.

[Aaxeyu]

I would like to see your math on this, to be honest. You're basing your argument on a premise that has yet to be proved. Is it REALLY fewer essences to start over from level 20 as opposed to your current level?

Let's say you have a current level of 70. You start over with your shiny new Artificer. Let's pretend he's already maxed in crafting. So in essence you've just lost 50 levels of crafting? How is this not MORE expensive than just keeping on with what you've done? Have you not just penalized yourself far worse than Turbine supposedly did?

You don't start over from 20. You start over from 0 and level up to [max crafting level - 20]. Those last 20 levels that you don't have to do will save you enormous amounts of work and plat.

[NytCrawlr]

Whether you see it as a waste or not is irrelevant. The fact that it is a waste still remains.

Alright fine, done arguing on a philosophical and logical level over this. Let's see the math like danotmano1998 suggested.

Show us the waste that you and others appear to see it as, break it down.

Only then can you actually prove anything and we can finally stop with this ever-repetitive back and forth.

I want to see the gains one will get by starting over and making an Artificer solely designed for crafting.

[NytCrawlr]

You don't start over from 20. You start over from 0 and level up to [max crafting level - 20]. Those last 20 levels that you don't have to do will save you enormous amounts of work and plat.

Fine, do a back to back comparison. One side showing a crafter already started at whatever levels you want, continuing to level their crafting, and then a "restart" toon artificer beginning from crafting level 0, taking in the fact that you have to level said character to gain full benefit, etc.

I have faith that this can be spelled out better, I don't have faith that you and others are right, but I am willing to be proven wrong, and at this point that is the only way you are going to prove it since subjective statements seem to be the backbone of the current discussion.

[BoBo2020]

Whether you see it as a waste or not is irrelevant. The fact that it is a waste still remains.

I disagree.

When the cost to enter Gianthold Tor went down from 20 of each relic to 9 of each relic, it didn't matter because I was already ransacking the dragon chests. This change just made things easier for my alts and for my next life. I didn't demand that Crag give me back the "extra" relics that i gave him long ago.

In crafting, I am at levels 103 / 100 / 104 on my main character who is not an artificer.

When U11 goes live, the new xp thresholds will bump me to around 110 in all 3 areas. The grind beyond that will be frustrating but I can't really complain that i wasted time or resources to get where I am because I have already benefited.

I made good shards early, at less cost (benefit), I can comfortably craft anything I want for my own characters right now (benefit), I can craft pretty much whatever my guild wants right now (benefit).

A new crafting dynamic does not invalidate these past and current benefits, it just creates a new option for the future. I will continue to slowly and steadily level my main character (this isn't a race as far as I know).

[lugoman]

You know I really don't understand the big deal about this thing. So Artificers get some bonus crafting levels, so what? So you crafted and crafted until you hit 70/70/70 or whatever, now a new class comes out that gets a bonus? Meh.

The arguement is moot to me, it's more or less the same as those who spent alot of time on getting the completionist feat have to now be FORCED to TR to re-gain it. Except, nobody is forcing you to TR to gain those few bonus crafting levels to 'keep up'.

Solution? Gear out your crafter/main character, TR to an Artificer. Or just be quiet and continue on like normal.

Translation: This doesnt effect me so it is not a problem.

So if you made your main your crafter you should just toss all your named and epic gear you grinded out and tr him into an artificer. I would have an awesome bank toon with an esos.

[dkyle]

I would like to see your math on this, to be honest. You're basing your argument on a premise that has yet to be proved. Is it REALLY fewer essences to start over from level 20 as opposed to your current level?

I don't have the new XP scale available, so I can't do exact numbers, but to demonstrate, consider what those 20 levels would mean now, with the 125 cap. My understanding is that post U11 150 is about the same XP as pre U11 125.

125 is 75638 per school. 105 is 52738. Therefore, in leveling to 125, the bonus from a craftingbot saves 22900 per school. Which means, that if I have not already earned 22900 per school (which is about level 80), I'm better off starting over.

I am nowhere near 80. And even if I were, I'd still be better off starting over because high level XP is more expensive, in terms of essences, than lower level XP. I don't have exact math on this part, but the general trend is obvious.

Revised numbers from U11 will change the breakeven points a bit, but in my case, it's blatantly obvious: I should start over. Everything I put into my current crafter (past the last useful stuff I got at CL35), will have been for naught

[NytCrawlr]

Translation: This doesnt effect me so it is not a problem.

So if you made your main your crafter you should just toss all your named and epic gear you grinded out and tr him into an artificer. I would have an awesome bank toon with an esos.

Less anecdotes, more math, give me numbers, I'm hungry.

[NytCrawlr]

Revised numbers from U11 will change the breakeven points a bit, but in my case, it's blatantly obvious: I should start over. Everything I put into my current crafter (past the last useful stuff I got at CL35), will have been for naught

But you have already spent X amount of XP and X amount of essences in crafting, yes?

So shouldn't that be taken into consideration as well since you are starting over? You have to factor that in as well to get a total picture of whether or not someone should restart.

That's what we are asking for, or at least what I am asking for. You just can't throw away what you have already spent. Hence the gains I mentioned that I wanted to see.

[dkyle]

When the cost to enter Gianthold Tor went down from 20 of each relic to 9 of each relic, it didn't matter because I was already ransacking the dragon chests. This change just made things easier for my alts and for my next life. I didn't demand that Crag give me back the "extra" relics that i gave him long ago.

The difference is that you got something out of those chests: flagging for your existing characters. Getting something sooner is a good thing. You got to play Tor, flag for Reaver's Fate, and play that Raid.

In a similar vein, I do not consider my first 35 CLs in Divine and Arcane as entirely wasted, because I got very useful items out of them.

On the other hand, every XP I earned past that was solely dedicated to reaching Greater Banes and beyond. There's nothing of interest to me in between. I didn't reach that point, and will not reach that point on that crafter. That means it was wasted, because I'm now better off starting over. I suppose I might (possibly) reach Greater Banes sooner if I continue from where I am now, but that would mean throwing even more XP at a crafter that I would still be wise to abandon if I want to keep going beyond that.

In crafting, I am at levels 103 / 100 / 104 on my main character who is not an artificer.

Well, congrats, you've already gotten everything currently worthwhile out of crafting. You got it sooner, so you got something out of it. You're also high enough that restarting likely won't be of benefit to you, unless the cap goes well beyond 150.

[pjw]

3 feats is nothing on an artificer.

Really? I think you are very mistaken. The way I see it:

Pretty much essential:

1 Extend
2 Maximize
3 Empower
4 Quicken
5 Toughness
6 IC:Ranged
7 PBS
8 PS
9 IPS
10 Construct Essence

Then some more nice-to-haves:

Rapid Shot
Power Crit: Ranged
Weapon Focus: Ranged
Spell Focus
Augment Summon
Shot on the Run (requires Dodge & Mobility, so maybe not)

These are all considerably better than adding 3 crafting feats.

The only class that can drop 3 feats and be unaffected is a badly designed class, and I think Artificers are pretty well designed at present.

Will they break the character? No, of course not, if they are played well. Will a good player find playing such a character satisfying, compared to an optimally configured questing arti? Most likely not.

[dkyle]

But you have already spent X amount of XP and X amount of essences in crafting, yes?

So shouldn't that be taken into consideration as well since you are starting over? You have to factor that in as well to get a total picture of whether or not someone should restart.

I did consider that.

I said the Artifcer would save 22900 per school, which is the XP needed to reach about 80. I said I have not gotten anywhere near 80.

I thought the conclusion was clear, but since it apparently wasn't: that means I have earned significantly less than 22900 per school so far. That means, if I continue on, I will need to gain more XP total, than if I start a new crafter, even adding in the XP I've already earned.

To say it another way:

Suppose I've earned 15000 per school so far (this is about where I am). Continuing on, I'll need to get another 60638 XP, for a total of 75638 XP ever earned.

If I instead start over, I need to earn 52738 to reach 125 (105 worth of XP, plus 20 bonus), for a total of 67738 XP ever earned.

So, in conclusion, by starting over, I will need to earn less XP, total, than if I continue on. Therefore, I should obviously start over. But that means wasting my previous effort.

And that's just the raw XP. Factor in the fact that the XP I've gotten so far is low level XP, and low level XP is much cheaper than the higher level XP I need to get if I continue on, and the difference in terms of essences is even more enormous.

[pjw]

...So, in conclusion, by starting over, I will need to earn less XP, total, than if I continue on. Therefore, I should obviously start over. But that means wasting my previous effort.

Exactly! I agree entirely.

Worse still, the XP/Essence (and moreso, the XP/Plat) massively dives as you craft at higher levels. Earning 1000 XP at low levels costs about 300-400 essences. When you are in the 80s-90s getting 1000 XP costs nearer 2000 essences PLUS (sometimes) expensive other items.

Those upper levels are *really* to be avoided.

[dunklezhan]

I did consider that.

I said the Artifcer would save 22900 per school, which is the XP needed to reach about 80. I said I have not gotten anywhere near 80.

I thought the conclusion was clear, but since it apparently wasn't: that means I have earned significantly less than 22900 per school so far. That means, if I continue on, I will need to gain more XP total, than if I start a new crafter, even adding in the XP I've already earned.

To say it another way:

Suppose I've earned 15000 per school so far (this is about where I am). Continuing on, I'll need to get another 60638 XP, for a total of 75638 XP ever earned.

If I instead start over, I need to earn 52738 to reach 125 (105 worth of XP, plus 20 bonus), for a total of 67738 XP ever earned.

So, in conclusion, by starting over, I will need to earn less XP, total, than if I continue on. Therefore, I should obviously start over. But that means wasting my previous effort.

And that's just the raw XP. Factor in the fact that the XP I've gotten so far is low level XP, and low level XP is much cheaper than the higher level XP I need to get if I continue on, and the difference in terms of essences is even more enormous.

I'm not sure it works out like that. Lets say you start over. You start at arti level 1, and get what, +1 crafting? Or does that kick in at L2? Either way, it puts you at L2 crafting. Which you'd get to by deconstructing like one or two items per school.

This carries on as you level. Every other Arti level you gain +1 crafting levels, but you have no way of knowing in advance at what crafting level you'll be when that happens. You might be L50 at Arti level 10, putting you up to 51 which saves you a fair whack of essences, but not massive amounts. A few levels later you might be up at L60 crafting or higher, and get another +1. So sometimes your extra +1 bonus crafting level will be worth your while. But to start with - possibly more often depending on how fast you level - it will be benefitting the lower, cheaper levels.

Or, you don't do any crafting until you've capped your arti. You start crafting already at L10, whoopee! But L10 is hardly massive amounts of essences saved, is it? Its certainly not at the expensive end of the spectrum. Its still the lower, cheaper levels of crafting that benefitted.

The only way to really do this would be to roll an arti, and craft your way up to L115 (or lower if you took the feats) or so without levelling the arti, then stop crafting and level to 20. If you can be bothered to do that, then more power to you.

The point is, unless you really, really try, you don't get the benefits at the end, you get them at the beginning, or every now and then as you level.

This means your maths does not work out, because its based purely on the absolute numbers involved, not the way people actually play. The arti crafting bonuses, as far as I can tell, will only ever give you a head start.

Or did I miss something again?

Edit - I thought of a way to do really well out of it. Craft to almost crafting cap now, then TR to arti, and cap quickly. You'll get the benefits at the end that way. But you still want to actually finish crafting on the character you're on.

[Jahmin]

No, it obviously doesn't. If you don't see the problem that it creates then you have not read the thread carefully enough.

Yes it does. Merely trying to create a problem, does not a problem make - that is all this thread is proof of

Artificers & Making Marks and their bonuses are fine

[Dexxaan]

Obviously I was an idiot and focused on getting my crafting levels up on my main original character.

With this absurd new bonus artificers get, plus the dragonmark of making bonuses, people will be far better off just making a gimp new char only for crafting that is an artificer. Anybody who already has worked on on their crafting is screwed (double- and triple- screwed since crafted handwraps, the main reason I worked on crafting, dont work either). A gimp artificer leveled up in a few days gets like +20 to their crafting levels (if I am reading the wiki correctly). How completely absurd, and a bit FU to current players who have worked on crafting.

Turbine really brings out the whiner in me - heh.

But this really is a rediculous decision on Turbine's part. Anybody who already has worked on crafting is basically screwed, relatively speaking, by this huge freebie given to newly made gimp crafting artificers.

And, no, I dont want to turn my epically geared main character into a gimp, for trolls who were going to tell me to just TR my main eventual-completionist with cleansed gs into a human artificer dragonmark of making perma-gimp.

I´m assuming you are asking / suggesting Turbine provide you (and us) with a Crafting XP - Transfer Token right?

Considering Crafting is in BETA still, any and all peeps that have any amount of levels in it did so at their own Expense and Risk. ---- So suck it up.


.

[pjw]

The point is, you don't get the benefits at the end, you get them at the beginning, or every now and then as you level.
...
Or did I miss something again?

'Fraid so. Sort of...

The true horror of a crafting bot is that you have to level your crafting skills *before* you level the character. Otherwise, yes, there is not much point.

[danotmano1998]

Ok, based on the Cannith Crafting wiki, found here

I did some very crude calculations based on the information available. Using the stated formula of Level *10, I found that the difference between levels 130 and 150 is a total of 28,100 xp. (Please correct me if Im wrong on this)

In other words, a Maxed Artificer basically gets 28,100 crafting XP for free at the top levels. This number will get exponentially larger if the XP crafting cap goes up. Now multiply THAT by 3, the number of crafting schools available.

So really, by being a maxed Artificer, you'll be saving 28,100 x 3 = 84,300 experience total.

Please double check me on these. If we're going to do any kind of intelligent comparison, it's vital to have the basic facts correct or the results are useless.

[Aaxeyu]

Or did I miss something again?

Yes. You stay as a level 1 artificier until you have reached [craft level goal-20], then you level up and grab the feats to get the last 20 crafting levels for free.