Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[somenewnoob]

I definitely think a one time crafting xp transfer "potion" or something should be given to each active account. There is going to be a lil bit of rage if not!

[danotmano1998]

It might not be the end of the world, but to any rational person looking at this decision objectively, it is obviously a bad decision.

You can rationalize and defend it and say how you in particular are so smart and wise and foresighted that you benefit from it, but really it is just a bad thing.

Punishing people for playing a part of the live game, and rewarding the creating of a gimp artificer... come on.

It isnt a natural extension of making an artificer. It is a natural extension of Turbine's general sense of saying FU to its customers on a regular basis.

I'm getting the feeling you are implying that I'm not being rational here. I respectfully disagree. Then you go on to imply that I am rationalizing. How can I rationalize without being rational? Please, keep the personal attacks off the forums, they have no place. This is a place of discussion and community. Or at least, it should be. A place where just because someone disagrees with someone else, they should not have to fear personal attacks, innuendo, or outright malice.

Nor am I trying to imply that I am smarter or wiser than anyone else. What I tried to post was how my personal story related to the current conditions. Knowing full well how Turbine operates, their shortcomings, MMO games in general, and the beta process, I decided to wait until things settled down before I invested time in it. As it turned out, this was a good decision for me. If this came across as smug, I do apologize for that was not my intent.

Beta:
A version of an application program which is available for use but is not the definitive version that the company will be releasing as the final product.

I don't see how people can say Turbine is giving them a big FU. They decided to give a new class some nice bonuses. Ok, maybe they should make them available to all classes. But then aren't people going to complain that if they take the feats they're gimping their main toon? How is that any better than what they propose?

Instead of this angry forum approach, maybe a constructive thread detailing exactly how this "breaks" things, and then some helpful suggestions as to how the system could be improved to benefit all would be a better way to go. Like the thread about making 1 crafting tab available to all your account toons. Or many others. At least these have some food for thought, whether they are optimal solutions or not.

[wyndzen]

The types of arguments that the defenders of this decision are making really speak for themselves.

[dkyle]

Unless you take to deconstructing with a different character you will still get XP from deconstructing items you find, so eventually you will reach XP cap. Might take you a long while but you'd still get there.

You are slightly understating "take you a long while". In any realistic sense, you're not going to cap from 130 to 150 from deconstructions alone.

Getting to 150 now instead of years from now is still a huge bonus.

[Doganpc]

Have they changed it so that a True Resurrection resets your Crafting level too now? Cause until then, I have no sympathy for this overhyped drama. You got a capped crafter... TR into Artificer and if you don't want to do that to your main... create a new main. Come on people, not rocket science.

Dogan
Just political science.

[dkyle]

NO: Turbine is not punishing you in ANY WAY. Nothing is stopping you from leveling your crafting to 150 and making anything on the list. You may feel duped, and rightly so but Turbine is NOT punishing. They just made a new class.

Post U11:

I will be strictly worse off than if I had never level'd my crafting past 35, and saved the essences instead, thanks to changes the devs have made.

That is punishment for leveling past 35 prior to U11.

[toughguyjoe]

The types of arguments that the defenders of this decision are making really speak for themselves.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Artific...acter_Build%29

So what would you have done differently? Made Artificer have no bonuses to crafting? The classes whole theme is crafting.

Maybe you want Turbine to just bump every single non artificer up 20 crafting levels for free?

[wyndzen]

I definitely think a one time crafting xp transfer "potion" or something should be given to each active account. There is going to be a lil bit of rage if not!

Good idea. It would be a better idea to just not have these crafting bonuses, but that would at least give some sign that Turbine gave a flying f about its customers.

If crafted handwraps hadnt been broken for multiple months, I would have a lot more patience for this.

If Turbine had done anything reasonable to announce that crafted handwraps were broken, I might have more patience for this.

If Turbine customer service didnt (I'm paraphrasing) tell me to go f myself regarding crafted handwraps being broken, after I had spent many hours working on the resources for them, in the good faith of assuming (stupid me) that a live game - even in beta - would have huge major features working (e.g. handwraps, metalline, bane, enhancement bonuses)... telling me that, essentially, the joke was on me for being such an arse as to use a beta-labeled portion of their game... then I might have more patience for this.

If Turbine hadnt then broken ghost touch on handwraps (or on all of its weapons, not sure), and been unable to fix THAT for weeks or months, I might have more patience.

If I hadnt at one point made a character based on using the the Stormsinger cloak, only to find out THAT was broken for months (yes I know it is now fixed), I might have more patience.

Where does Turbine find it coders and designers? Are they outcasts from the people at Bethseda (100% chameleon so no enemy in game ever can see you to attack you ever... excellent idea. Haggle to get more gold selling than buying the same item, in a game totally based on gold even for training... excellent implementation)?

If the whole Threnal chain hadn't made it past Quality assurance, after being designed by a person who clearly has deep personality issues, I might have more patience for this.

[dkyle]

Have they changed it so that a True Resurrection resets your Crafting level too now? Cause until then, I have no sympathy for this overhyped drama. You got a capped crafter... TR into Artificer and if you don't want to do that to your main... create a new main. Come on people, not rocket science.

Yeah, I'll get right on making a new Barbarian with GS and Epics after I TR my current one into a crafting bot. Oh, and I get to level a double TR instead of a first life!

What a great idea! Glad you pointed it out, or I'd never have thought of it.

So what would you have done differently? Made Artificer have no bonuses to crafting?

Yes. Absolutely.

The classes whole theme is crafting.

I don't see any mention of Shroud crafting, Dragontouched crafting, Stone of Change crafting, or any of the other myriad crafting systems in DDO. Why Cannith crafting? And why do Artificers get the bonus, yet in PnP, crafting requires a spellcaster, and they don't get anything special?

Bottom line is, the Artificer would work just as well, in quests, without the bonus. It's not necessary to make the class work.

Class/race-based crafting bonuses are a bad idea in an MMO when we can just make craftingbots to get the bonus without the downside of having to play the character that spent the build resources on crafting. In PnP, that's not as much an issue.

Maybe you want Turbine to just bump every single non artificer up 20 crafting levels for free?

That would still be worse than the bonus Artificers get. That grants 20 low levels. DMarked Artificers always get the last 20 levels free.

[NytCrawlr]

Have they changed it so that a True Resurrection resets your Crafting level too now?

Nope, that is still in play.

But yeah, hyper drama at it's best.

[toughguyjoe]

Post U11:

I will be strictly worse off than if I had never level'd my crafting past 35, and saved the essences instead, thanks to changes the devs have made.

That is punishment for leveling past 35 prior to U11.

I hate to fall back on an argument that has already been made in this thread, but crafting has always had a bright light on it that said:

"This could change however we want at any time"

It's called Beta. Using an unfinished system sometimes has negative effects, when future changes are made. This is a risk people should have known that they were taking. I knew I was taking it. When I saw Artificer was the new class I figured I had wasted my time leveling my crafting toon, even if only leveling him to an easy level.

However, I knew that something like this could happen, in fact I figured it was inevitable.

[wyndzen]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Artific...acter_Build%29

So what would you have done differently? Made Artificer have no bonuses to crafting? The classes whole theme is crafting.

Exactly what I wanted! No bonuses to crafting by Artificers. That is just plain obvious common sense.

Any sort of argument regarding the design of fantasy games that prioritizes themes over balance and fairness is wrong-headed, in my opinion.

We could talk all day about things that "should" happen thematically that would make the game terrible. Giants "should" beat the heck out of humans in melee. Red bosses "shouldn't" have a hundred times more hps than pc's.

Horoth "should" be able to do a fireball that does more damage than a human sorcerer, and he "should" be able to cast it every 3 seconds while spamming other spells in between, doing 1000's of pts of damage every second.

As I said, and as you quoted, the arguments made by the defenders of this decision speak for themselves.

[Aaxeyu]

I hate to fall back on an argument that has already been made in this thread, but crafting has always had a bright light on it that said:

"This could change however we want at any time"

It's called Beta. Using an unfinished system sometimes has negative effects, when future changes are made. This is a risk people should have known that they were taking. I knew I was taking it. When I saw Artificer was the new class I figured I had wasted my time leveling my crafting toon, even if only leveling him to an easy level.

However, I knew that something like this could happen, in fact I figured it was inevitable.

Beta or not, the change is still stupid, makes no sense from gameplay perspective and screws people over.
It's a bad idea to let this happen, the fact that it's a beta is completely irrelevant.

[Aaxeyu]

the arguments made by the defenders of this decision speak for themselves.

Indeed.

[Shattered.likeness]

And, no, I dont want to turn my epically geared main character into a gimp, for trolls who were going to tell me to just TR my main eventual-completionist with cleansed gs into a human artificer dragonmark of making perma-gimp.

Just thought you might like to know that some on Lamannia have already TR'd an Artificer, and currently you get the following (passive) Past Life Feat (link):

You were an Artificer in a past life. You occasionally find yourself tinkering with your gear. When you use a rod, staff, or Wand, you have a 5% chance not to expend a charge. Each time you acquire this feat you gain a stacking +1 bonus to the Use Magic Device skill. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

An up to +3 stacking UMD is nothing to scoff at, and will help you on some of your other TR's on your way to Completionist. You have to have the life anyways, so why not do your crafting on your future completionist during that life? No one says that you will have to be a Human Artificer with DM of Making to be a good crafter. But a character with that many lives can easily hit the upper ranks of crafting from breaking down vendor trash anyways.

[toughguyjoe]

Exactly what I wanted! No bonuses to crafting by Artificers. That is just plain obvious common sense.

Any sort of argument regarding the design of fantasy games that prioritizes themes over balance and fairness is wrong-headed, in my opinion.

We could talk all day about things that "should" happen thematically that would make the game terrible. Giants "should" beat the heck out of humans in melee. Red bosses "shouldn't" have a hundred times more hps than pc's.

Horoth "should" be able to do a fireball that does more damage than a human sorcerer, and he "should" be able to cast it every 3 seconds while spamming other spells in between, doing 1000's of pts of damage every second.

As I said, and as you quoted, the arguments made by the defenders of this decision speak for themselves.

So you never played 3.5 Pen and Paper. Got yah. Makes pretty much all sense lost to the conversation.

Converting the d20 system to Video games is tricky. I don't think I could do a better job than what DDO has done, because I'm a video game player, not designer.

Our defenses of the Artificer class in this thread DO speak for themselves. They speak loudly, and it's your tired response that falls flat.

[Jaid314]

meh. if you've already got close to 100 (particularly bearing in mind crafting exp requirements are being decreased, last i heard), then who cares?

i would say those who have farmed to around 70-80 maybe should be upset, 30ish is frankly a joke to get to and represents barely any investment, even my crafting levels up near the 50s aren't that hard.

but if you've got close to 100, you've already got the ability to craft pretty much everything. if you were fast enough, you got to make a bunch of bane shards before they got expensive, which is also it's own reward.

but really, the difference between 130 and 150? all that lets you do is craft more stuff for others. in fact, the only recipes that will gain you any exp are recipes that you craft for others. at that point, you really shouldn't be the one paying for your crafting anyways. and in fact, by being that person who's already at or near level 100, you have the advantage in that the market is not yet crowded with people offering their high level crafting at or near cost.

particularly now that a bunch of people seem to have decided that they're not going to invest in crafting until they've made a new character for it.

saving on reaching level 90-100? that's pretty cool. saving on reaching levels 140-150? or even 130-150? who cares. *you* aren't the one paying for those levels anyways (or at least, you shouldn't be). find all those people who aren't interested in crafting, but who wouldn't mind having, say, a 33% electric absorb ring, or a holy/bane weapon for use on a specific enemy, or any number of other possible things to craft. if it's something you gain exp from, charge them at cost. if you don't gain exp, charge them extra so that you can afford to make some garbage shard (or even require that they give you X exp worth of junk items you can deconstruct).

[dkyle]

It's called Beta. Using an unfinished system sometimes has negative effects, when future changes are made. This is a risk people should have known that they were taking. I knew I was taking it. When I saw Artificer was the new class I figured I had wasted my time leveling my crafting toon, even if only leveling him to an easy level.

I'm not disputing the Devs "right" to make changes.

I'm calling it a bad change, a punishing change. A needlessly punishing change.

There's a difference.

And congrats on guessing right. After the Devs didn't follow PnP and didn't give casters any benefit for crafting, I thought they understood that build-based crafting bonuses are a bad idea. After they changed a patch to remove BtC favor items, I thought it reinforced that belief. I thought they made statements reinforcing that belief. Apparently, I was wrong. They didn't understand. They were just saving the bonuses for a selling point on a new class.

I trusted the Devs to have the sense not to make effort on Live, even on a "Beta" subsystem, count for nothing. Apparently, I mistrusted. I'll know better than to participate in a Live "Beta" next time.

[dkyle]

saving on reaching level 90-100? that's pretty cool.

You realize that the bonus also applies to saving on reaching 100 by leveling to 80 instead, right?

150 is simply the largest raw xp/essence savings, but there's still a huge difference between leveling to 80 and to 100.

[Combat_Wombat]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Artific...acter_Build%29

So what would you have done differently? Made Artificer have no bonuses to crafting? The classes whole theme is crafting.

Maybe you want Turbine to just bump every single non artificer up 20 crafting levels for free?

No we wanted turbine to say there was going to be a class that got significant bonuses to crafting on the horizon instead of saying the exact opposite over and over that crafting was in no way character dependent. Since that did not happen a 1 time free transfer of crafting xp to another character is the obvious solution that would make everyone happy with no downside.