Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[wyndzen]

Obviously I was an idiot and focused on getting my crafting levels up on my main original character.

With this absurd new bonus artificers get, plus the dragonmark of making bonuses, people will be far better off just making a gimp new char only for crafting that is an artificer. Anybody who already has worked on on their crafting is screwed (double- and triple- screwed since crafted handwraps, the main reason I worked on crafting, dont work either). A gimp artificer leveled up in a few days gets like +20 to their crafting levels (if I am reading the wiki correctly). How completely absurd, and a bit FU to current players who have worked on crafting.

Turbine really brings out the whiner in me - heh.

But this really is a rediculous decision on Turbine's part. Anybody who already has worked on crafting is basically screwed, relatively speaking, by this huge freebie given to newly made gimp crafting artificers.

And, no, I dont want to turn my epically geared main character into a gimp, for trolls who were going to tell me to just TR my main eventual-completionist with cleansed gs into a human artificer dragonmark of making perma-gimp.

[danotmano1998]

The consoling fact to this is at least your new gimp crafter toon will be able to make stuff for everyone else, and once leveled, won't have to relevel.

I don't see anything wrong with making a crafter just for that purpose. It's times like these where procrastination pays off big time. I waited and didn't spend any real time on crafting other than to just play with it for fun.

Now that the beta sticker is hopefully coming off, it might be worth the effort, especially since turbine had to go and give us these great free crafting bonuses. Kind of a win win really. Unless you jumped all over crafting and spent a ton of time on it. While it was in Beta. If you did, that's kind of a shame but there's really no reason to fault Turbine for giving artificers bonuses. At least, IMO.

[Bargol]

The consoling fact to this is at least your new gimp crafter toon will be able to make stuff for everyone else, and once leveled, won't have to relevel.

I don't see anything wrong with making a crafter just for that purpose. It's times like these where procrastination pays off big time. I waited and didn't spend any real time on crafting other than to just play with it for fun.

Now that the beta sticker is hopefully coming off, it might be worth the effort, especially since turbine had to go and give us these great free crafting bonuses. Kind of a win win really. Unless you jumped all over crafting and spent a ton of time on it. While it was in Beta. If you did, that's kind of a shame but there's really no reason to fault Turbine for giving artificers bonuses. At least, IMO.

Originally turbine said that they would have it so everyone would not have a gimp crafting toon. they encouraged everyone to craft on any toon (main toons). However, the current implementation it appears that will go to live servers goes back on the original statements. Its utter BS for anyone who participated and did the beta testing on live servers for them.

Have a gimp crafting toon just to craft is a terrible idea.

[AMDarkwolf]

Originally turbine said that they would have it so everyone would not have a gimp crafting toon. they encouraged everyone to craft on any toon (main toons). However, the current implementation it appears that will go to live servers goes back on the original statements. Its utter BS for anyone who participated and did the beta testing on live servers for them.

Have a gimp crafting toon just to craft is a terrible idea.

hehe the funny thing, is when you look at all the 'official' statements made by turbine related to crafting, they have gone back on each and every little promise. EVERY one.

Oh well. Watch next they gonna try to sneak raid loot into the recipes again

[danotmano1998]

Originally turbine said that they would have it so everyone would not have a gimp crafting toon. they encouraged everyone to craft on any toon (main toons). However, the current implementation it appears that will go to live servers goes back on the original statements. Its utter BS for anyone who participated and did the beta testing on live servers for them.

Have a gimp crafting toon just to craft is a terrible idea.

Of course they did! How else would they have got any feedback and fixes done on the crafting system?

I'm not saying I agree with how they did things and in what order and if they stuck to their original statements. What I'm trying to point out is that any efforts aren't really wasted. These efforts contributed valuable information to Turbine, and are still just as good as they always were.

Continuing on despite the extra bonuses given to the new class is a sub-optimal, sure. I won't dispute that point. But wasted? I disagree.

[wyndzen]

Yeah I'm really consoled that I can make a new char to craft, given that my current crafting is 97/94/91. And, yeah, I appreciate the insinuation that I was silly for using something that was labeled "beta."

Would it be win-win if Turbine gave every char a better version of an eSoS for free, if you had just worked for months to get one? Or any one of other of a zillion examples of where you work hard for something, and then you given the big FU by Turbine for it?

[danotmano1998]

Yeah I'm really consoled that I can make a new char to craft, given that my current crafting is 97/94/91. And, yeah, I appreciate the insinuation that I was silly for using something that was labeled "beta."

Would it be win-win if Turbine gave every char a better version of an eSoS for free, if you had just worked for months to get one? Or any one of other of a zillion examples of where you work hard for something, and then you given the big FU by Turbine for it?

I agree that your situation is unenviable. I really don't blame you for being frustrated by it. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here.

You knew it was beta. Hopefully you also understood what that meant. While the new crafting upgrades are really nice, they aren't absolutely necessary. What you're implying is that you've wasted your time completely leveling up.

If you TR'd that character into.. oh, say an Artificer? Your efforts will not be wasted.
Nor would they be truly wasted if you just continued on with what you are doing. Will it be tougher and more expensive than an Artificer? Yeah, but you're already 2/3 of the way there!

I really don't see it as Turbine saying FU to anybody. I see it as a natural extension of the class they were developing. They just put it in after crafting started.

[blade_of_will]

I really don't see it as Turbine saying FU to anybody. I see it as a natural extension of the class they were developing. They just put it in after crafting started.

I would like my bard to have a 20% selling price increase, just for being a bard.

I would like my wizard to have an increased scroll drop rate, just because its a wizard and i farm scrolls on it.

Those would be natural extensions of the class too right? Its pretty much the same thing.

[danotmano1998]

I would like my bard to have a 20% selling price increase, just for being a bard.

I would like my wizard to have an increased scroll drop rate, just because its a wizard and i farm scrolls on it.

Those would be natural extensions of the class too right? Its pretty much the same thing.

I'd have to disagree. While the Cannith crafting and Artificers are parts of the Eberron lore, Wizards getting free scrolls and bards getting more cash don't follow the same intrinsic logic.

Bards already get Haggle as a class skill. Choosing to up this in effect does that very thing, increasing gold per sale. Bards CAN make music. So guess what? They do that in DDO.

Wizards make scrolls. So guess what? They can make them in DDO. Natural progression. Doesn't mean they can find them any easier than anyone else.

[wyndzen]

I'd have to disagree. While the Cannith crafting and Artificers are parts of the Eberron lore, Wizards getting free scrolls and bards getting more cash don't follow the same intrinsic logic.

Bards already get UMD as a class skill. Choosing to up this in effect does that very thing, increasing gold per sale. Bards CAN make music. So guess what? They do that in DDO.

Wizards make scrolls. So guess what? They can make them in DDO. Natural progression. Doesn't mean they can find them any easier than anyone else.

Yeah, and gs is not part of Eberron lore, so I say we take it out.

And surely in Eberron lore, Artificers get a bonus to Cannith crafting, but not gs crafting, dragontouched crafting, stone of change crafting, insanity, sora kutra, incredible potential, etc etc etc.

Really, as I said before, arguments regarding game design and balance that start to include themes and "should" get really silly really fast. The person you are quoting was illustrating that, successfully. Your counterarguments really come across as rather silly, at least to me. (I dont mean this nastily at all, just arguing the point with you.)

Of course Wizards getting free scrolls more often could be made to follow, if somebody wanted to. Epic scrolls drop from mobs, and they are often hard to read. Some, by chance, can be read by anybody, but some are harder to decipher and can only be read by Wizards. Simple. Instead, how about we make decisions based on game balance and generally good design choices involving sensible rewards for time invested efficiently?

[EvilI]

If you TR'd that character into.. oh, say an Artificer? Your efforts will not be wasted.

Yes they would. My efforts to gear and equip my main toon with btc equipment during all my free time for half a year would be wasted if I had to TR him into an artificier, and not be able to TR him again.

Have another day!

[Miow]

I agree that your situation is unenviable. I really don't blame you for being frustrated by it. I'm just playing the devil's advocate here.

You knew it was beta. Hopefully you also understood what that meant. While the new crafting upgrades are really nice, they aren't absolutely necessary. What you're implying is that you've wasted your time completely leveling up.

If you TR'd that character into.. oh, say an Artificer? Your efforts will not be wasted.
Nor would they be truly wasted if you just continued on with what you are doing. Will it be tougher and more expensive than an Artificer? Yeah, but you're already 2/3 of the way there!

I really don't see it as Turbine saying FU to anybody. I see it as a natural extension of the class they were developing. They just put it in after crafting started.

He is not 2/3 of the way there, the grind at those levels is insane.

[NytCrawlr]

Yeah I'm really consoled that I can make a new char to craft, given that my current crafting is 97/94/91.

I wouldn't bother restarting if you are that high level, in fact I think restarting at any level is kind of a waste, but whatever done fighting that argument.

All the bonuses do is help with the later levels if you play it right. Artificer gains 1 crafting level per 2 character levels, so there's 10 levels for you if you want to level an Artificer to 20, then with the feats you gain another 20 levels, so 30 total.

So ultimately you still have to grind, still have to use resources, in addition you have to level a toon on top of this to get some of the benefit, which Artificers may or may not be your cup of tea (I like em, not enough to start over with crafting though), and in the end, if the levels don't go higher than 150, you basically cut yourself out of the crazy costs that are associated with levels 130-150 if you play it right (not taking the feat until 20th level and your at crafting level 130). However, and here's the kicker and why I think this isn't as cool/bad as some make out, if they ever increase crafting levels beyond 150, you will have to continue the grind just like everyone else and be in the same predicament.

Ultimately all the bonuses do is get you there quicker, nothing more.

[Doxmaster]

Yeah I'm really consoled that I can make a new char to craft, given that my current crafting is 97/94/91.

I still cant quite wrap my head around the arguments against it...People say that the Artificers are Super-better-ultra-special-Number-1 crafter despite Live crafting characters having over 90 in multiple disciplines. How long did it take to reach level 70? How much of a grind was it?

According you you, it was a pretty big grind and a lot of hard work....so people having to start a new character, gimp it straight out of the gates and grind for 75% of the time you grind-ed to make it equal to you is horrific? Never mind the fact that they are burning a character slot for a character they cant even TR without losing either 10 of their 'free' crafting levels if they aren't an artificer again or all 20 of them, if they cant fit the Dragonmark again.

How much of a profit are you guys making that being the absolute best crafter is the only option for making money? I understand that can make a tidy sum, but from the way people are posting, it seems the Diablo Plat-for-Cash AH is being included in DDO and that's how you planned to pay your mortgage.
Love and tolerate them. Love and tolerate the to DEATH. Ok. I am going to +rep everyone explaining things in this thread until this starts making sense.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I still cant quite wrap my head around the arguments against it...People say that the Artificers are Super-better-ultra-special-Number-1 crafter despite Live crafting characters having over 90 in multiple disciplines. How long did it take to reach level 70? How much of a grind was it?

According you you, it was a pretty big grind and a lot of hard work....so people having to start a new character, gimp it straight out of the gates and grind for 75% of the time you grind-ed to make it equal to you is horrific? Never mind the fact that they are burning a character slot for a character they cant even TR without losing either 10 of their 'free' crafting levels if they aren't an artificer again or all 20 of them, if they cant fit the Dragonmark again.

How much of a profit are you guys making that being the absolute best crafter is the only option for making money? I understand that can make a tidy sum, but from the way people are posting, it seems the Diablo Plat-for-Cash AH is being included in DDO and that's how you planned to pay your mortgage.

I imagine the exp required to get from 130 to 150 will be about the same as 0-90. It's just an educated guess based on what they did with the guild exp, though.

[SmoothOne]

Beta much?

[Dandonk]

This was why I tried to post a thread about it in general. It got moved, and flamed.

But yes, there are many reasons this is bad.

[Bracosius]

Aren't the bonuses just a head start?

What I mean is, a 20 arti with dragon marks will be crafter level 170 when capped, but if he can make the same items a 150 any other crafter can make does it matter?

Like maxing jump, if your already at cap, who cares how high you can go.

[dkyle]

Aren't the bonuses just a head start?

What I mean is, a 20 arti with dragon marks will be crafter level 170 when capped, but if he can make the same items a 150 any other crafter can make does it matter?

Why would the 20 arti get the XP for level 150, if that's the cap? The point is to get the XP for 130, and let the bonus get you to 150. That saves a ton of grinding crafting XP. So much so, in fact, that unless you're already very close to the cap, your total essence cost leveling a new 20 arti to 130 will likely be less than leveling an existing crafting to 150.

And before it gets mentioned: no, reaching cap is not "inevitable". Leveling crafting takes specific effort crafting a bunch of different useless shards. If you just craft items you'll actually use, those few worthwhile shards will quickly stop giving you any XP.

Artifices can simply reach it faster.

that is all.

I've seen this argument frequently, and frankly I just can't wrap my head around how anyone says it with a straight face. How is reaching something faster not a good thing? A desirable thing? A useful thing?

And in this case, it isn't just "faster", it's also "incredibly cheaper".

What's better, a house that takes a year to build and 1 million dollars spent, or the same exact house, but that takes 4 months to build and 200 thousand dollars spent?

[Full_Bleed]

Aren't the bonuses just a head start?

What I mean is, a 20 arti with dragon marks will be crafter level 170 when capped, but if he can make the same items a 150 any other crafter can make does it matter?

Like maxing jump, if your already at cap, who cares how high you can go.

This is something people who don't craft, particularly at high levels, do not understand.

Once you stop dumping huge amounts of plat and essences into making throw-away shards just for the XP, your crafting advancement grinds to a halt. Most crafters get within 10 levels of the cap, where they get a 50% shot at everything, and stop. Crafting to cap is just a waste of money and resources and gaining levels by situational crafting and deconstruction produces very little XP.

Artificers will be able to get within 30 levels of the cap and stop.

And don't kid yourself: Not having to craft throw-away shards into those top 30 levels is HUGE. It's probably a savings of at least 50-100% of the expense of crafting to cap (that is, it might cost you 50-100% of what it cost to get 120 to get to 150.)


There have been many threads on this exact issue on Lammania. Some have been shut down. Others just turn into flame fests. But the warning has been cast. The more people in the actual live game that get a taste of this, the less popular it will be to current crafters.


One solution is to allow people to transfer their crafting XP from another character on their account to an Artificer upon creation. Artificer Craftbots are a foregone conclusion. You'd be crazy to craft on any toon but an Artificer once it's released. And if you want to make the most efficient crafter, you'll need to make it a Human with Dragon Marks of Making. This is irrefutable. Any other option will cost you a lot more money and time to achieve that same degree of success.

Allowing people to transfer crafting XP from an existing toon to a new Artificer would acknowledge that they did intimate that it didn't matter what toon we crafted on (when it now does) and would be a huge selling point for the Artificer. It's still an about-face from a class/race/build neutral crafting system, but at least it doesn't punish beta testers who have put the most real time, real money, and real effort into achieving high crafting skills (not to mention the inordinate amount of virtual resources spent.)


So far, there has been silence on the issue from Turbine.