Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[Dandonk]

I'm complaining that having a craftbot you never play hugely benefits the entire account (on that server at least). So, it's like if you have a fighter with the right dragonmarks, suddenly your bard is better at fighting.

I'm complaining that unless I'm at level 67+ in crafting right now, with the costs on live, I'll be better off starting over on a new artificer, using the craftbot approach.

I think making a craftbot so hugely advantageous is a bad gameplay decision.

[Zachski]

I'm complaining that having a craftbot you never play hugely benefits the entire account (on that server at least). So, it's like if you have a fighter with the right dragonmarks, suddenly your bard is better at fighting.

You mean like how having a level 20 character with access to really good gear benefits your entire account on that server?

[Dandonk]

You mean like how having a level 20 character with access to really good gear benefits your entire account on that server?

Funny.

No, like I could get +20% rare loot chance on all characters, but only if I made a pure horc DC based wizard, with dragonmarks of finding.

[karl_k0ch]

When comparing the craftbots with the established crafters, there is another thing which should be considered. The level difference of 20 crafting levels is mentioned frequently.
But one should keep in mind that the lowered cost in essences in order to get to the desired crafting level is not the only kind of resource which is involved here.

• Building a craftbot requires a character slot. That's not a problem for most players, but I have no free slot on my home server.
• To create an Artificer, you'll need access to the Class as such. This will most likely require a TP investment.
• Finally, the bonus of +20 is only obtained with a capped Artificer who took the Dragonmarks of Making. I.e. you will need the time to level a character to cap whose feat layout uses some space for things which do not contribute to the completion of quests.

Basically, you convert essences and time into a character slot, some TPs, and time.

If the devs do a good job, the question "Should I do this bargain?" needs to be a hard question, not favoring one or the other answer, but requiring careful consideration, depending on the player's needs and play style. If it's to easy to create such a craftbot, it's bad design.

[Zachski]

Funny.

No, like I could get +20% rare loot chance on all characters, but only if I made a pure horc DC based wizard, with dragonmarks of finding.

No, I think it's more like having a level 20 character.

For one thing, you WILL need a level 20 Artificer in order to benefit from the bonus crafting levels. This takes time, the money to buy it, the money to buy the character slot... and so forth.

For another, the Artificer is essentially passing gear around, only instead of finding it in dungeons or on the AH, he's making it himself. The level 20 character twinking his other characters? Passing gear around that he found in dungeons or the AH.

[toughguyjoe]

Wow, still going.

Artificer is not going anywhere, and neither are it's crafting bonuses.

I bet if this thread keeps up it'll be gone though!

[Dandonk]

No, I think it's more like having a level 20 character.

For one thing, you WILL need a level 20 Artificer in order to benefit from the bonus crafting levels. This takes time, the money to buy it, the money to buy the character slot... and so forth.

For another, the Artificer is essentially passing gear around, only instead of finding it in dungeons or on the AH, he's making it himself. The level 20 character twinking his other characters? Passing gear around that he found in dungeons or the AH.

But it doesn't work for just any level 20 character. It works for a very specific build. It gives access to items that either cannot be looted, or are so rare as to be non-existent. So it's not just being able to pass +6 items and paralyzers (or whatever). It's making +5 HB greater banes so your entire account - or selling them. Or vampirism weapons. Or +4 attack bonus goggles.

Should builds now convey account wide benefits? So your bank mule wizard suddenly gives your water savant better DCs?

[netops]

When comparing the craftbots with the established crafters, there is another thing which should be considered. The level difference of 20 crafting levels is mentioned frequently.
But one should keep in mind that the lowered cost in essences in order to get to the desired crafting level is not the only kind of resource which is involved here.

• Building a craftbot requires a character slot. That's not a problem for most players, but I have no free slot on my home server.
• To create an Artificer, you'll need access to the Class as such. This will most likely require a TP investment.
• Finally, the bonus of +20 is only obtained with a capped Artificer who took the Dragonmarks of Making. I.e. you will need the time to level a character to cap whose feat layout uses some space for things which do not contribute to the completion of quests.

Basically, you convert essences and time into a character slot, some TPs, and time.

If the devs do a good job, the question "Should I do this bargain?" needs to be a hard question, not favoring one or the other answer, but requiring careful consideration, depending on the player's needs and play style. If it's to easy to create such a craftbot, it's bad design.

+1 This has provided more ‘choice’ in how you achieve what you want out of the game.


BETA: Crafting is in a prolonged BETA, by definition this is being trailed and likely to change, to now complain that some changes are being implemented seems to be ignoring the big BETA message that comes up every time you enter the crafting hall!

+20 Crafting levels.
Only applies to a level 20 human artificer. From the general comments I assume it is quicker to TR to 20 than it is to craft from 130-150. Therefore most crafters have the option of dedicating the character to crafting and TR for the bonus, or keeping their current build and expending more resource (time/plat) to reach 150. Choice!

A crafting specced artificer will have lost 3 feats to crafting, against a non crafting artificer, I doubt this will make them a total gimp, but there should be negatives to making that Choice.

Ultimately nobody on live has more than 125 crafting. Everyone gets the choice of 20 ‘bonus’ levels, by levelling to 20 as an artificer, and paying a price of 3 feats to achieve it, or grinding through to150 without the bonus, and gaining the advantage of picking ANY build. Choice.

Any good game development should be focused on providing suitably balanced choice. Personally I think They achieve this.

[Zachski]

But it doesn't work for just any level 20 character. It works for a very specific build. It gives access to items that either cannot be looted, or are so rare as to be non-existent. So it's not just being able to pass +6 items and paralyzers (or whatever). It's making +5 HB greater banes so your entire account - or selling them. Or vampirism weapons. Or +4 attack bonus goggles.

Should builds now convey account wide benefits? So your bank mule wizard suddenly gives your water savant better DCs?

No, it works for any level 20 character that has 150 crafting. You can do it as of now, even (though right now it's just 120 crafting).

Artificer just gets there cheaper and quicker, and marginally so at that.

[Dandonk]

Artificer just gets there cheaper and quicker, and marginally so at that.

It's not marginally. It's months of work and millions of plat.

[EvilI]

If you TR'd that character into.. oh, say an Artificer? Your efforts will not be wasted.

Yes they would. My efforts to gear and equip my main toon with btc equipment during all my free time for half a year would be wasted if I had to TR him into an artificier, and not be able to TR him again.

Have another day!

[Zachski]

It's not marginally. It's months of work and millions of plat.

You must have missed the memo that was posted earlier in this thread.

They're reducing the amount of exp needed to get crafting levels.

The only way Artificer would have any real advantage is if you took a level 1 Artificer and grinded him all the way up to 131, then began levelling him up.

[Dandonk]

You must have missed the memo that was posted earlier in this thread.

They're reducing the amount of exp needed to get crafting levels.

No, I know that. They're also raising the cap. And likely raising it again later.

The craftbot approach will save you enough xp to level every school into level 67 or so. With the live costs. That's not a marginal save, that's a long and intense grind.

[toughguyjoe]

It's not marginally. It's months of work and millions of plat.

On behalf of turbine, I would like to personally thank you for participating in the live crafting beta on the servers.

It was incredibly nice of you to help us test things, and we've even decided to lower the amount of crafting experience needed to level, given some of the more actionable feedback given during testing!

Once again, thank you so much for your voluntary time and effort!

[Dandonk]

On behalf of turbine, I would like to personally thank you for participating in the live crafting beta on the servers.

It was incredibly nice of you to help us test things, and we've even decided to lower the amount of crafting experience needed to level, given some of the more actionable feedback given during testing!

Once again, thank you so much for your voluntary time and effort!

You forgot the part where it's now better for me to start over on a new toon, throwing away all I did in crafting:

Thank you for spending time beta-testing for us - your plat (and TP if you did that) spent on crafting is now useless. Have a great day!

[Aaxeyu]

My argument isn't that "They should be good at crafting because they should be good at crafting."

My argument is that "They should be good at crafting because they are good at crafting.

That's even worse.

[toughguyjoe]

You forgot the part where it's now better for me to start over on a new toon, throwing away all I did in crafting:

Thank you for spending time beta-testing for us - your plat (and TP if you did that) spent on crafting is now useless. Have a great day!

I didn't forget that part at all. That part is your opinion. If you want to take advantage of the benefits of Artificer class that is your choice.

Just like it was your choice to spend plat(or even TP) on crafting when it was clearly stated it was all subject to change on the developers whims.

Just like it is your choice to come here and complain because someone is going to have it easier than you, because they didn't gamble their platinum(and possibly TP) on a beta test of a gaming function.

Ah, Choices. They make us who we are

[Aaxeyu]

When comparing the craftbots with the established crafters, there is another thing which should be considered. The level difference of 20 crafting levels is mentioned frequently.
But one should keep in mind that the lowered cost in essences in order to get to the desired crafting level is not the only kind of resource which is involved here.

• Building a craftbot requires a character slot. That's not a problem for most players, but I have no free slot on my home server.
• To create an Artificer, you'll need access to the Class as such. This will most likely require a TP investment.
• Finally, the bonus of +20 is only obtained with a capped Artificer who took the Dragonmarks of Making. I.e. you will need the time to level a character to cap whose feat layout uses some space for things which do not contribute to the completion of quests.

Basically, you convert essences and time into a character slot, some TPs, and time.

If the devs do a good job, the question "Should I do this bargain?" needs to be a hard question, not favoring one or the other answer, but requiring careful consideration, depending on the player's needs and play style. If it's to easy to create such a craftbot, it's bad design.

Mitigating factors, but the problem still remains.

Dandok put it very nicely:
"Should builds now convey account wide benefits? So your bank mule wizard suddenly gives your water savant better DCs? "
"No, like I could get +20% rare loot chance on all characters, but only if I made a pure horc DC based wizard, with dragonmarks of finding. "
"I'm complaining that having a craftbot you never play hugely benefits the entire account (on that server at least). So, it's like if you have a fighter with the right dragonmarks, suddenly your bard is better at fighting."

If it's not good, it should not be added at all period. That is so mindblowingly simple that it makes me sad to see how many people who just absolutely fail to understand it.

[Dandonk]

Just like it was your choice to spend plat(or even TP) on crafting when it was clearly stated it was all subject to change on the developers whims.

They stated at the start that they would not reset xp after the beta. This change amounts to the same thing for many people.

[toughguyjoe]

They stated at the start that they would not reset xp after the beta. This change amounts to the same thing for many people.

So you're choosing to give up what you've already accomplished and start over on an Artificer?

Excellent choice. I see you've decided to make a choice instead of complaining more. I commend you for that.

Turbine said they wouldn't reset anyones crafting XP. If you chose to reset it yourself, who is to blame?