Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[Chai]

If that was the case then we would not state that the problem only comes to the people who are below a certain crafting level.

No, the issue is for people of the mid levels only. The low levels are easy to get, and can be easily leveled again. Its those who leveled into the 60s or 70s or so that should be the most irritated. This isnt everyone however, and certainly isnt the majority. And we all took part in a system that was openly declared an open beta, and we did so knowing that the system could and likely would be changed. This again is normal in cutting edge playtesting and cutting edge gaming.

The people who leveled to ~35 or so will gladly trade releveling those easy lower levels for being able to forgo the last 20 levels. The people who leveled all the way up in a day or 2 using the carpal tunnel method arent hurting at all.

[Khurse]

Those who aren't choosing to start a new crafter are either above a certain crafting level or are simply acting irrational. For the rational persons below the threshold there is not much of a choice, as one option is so much better than the other.

How is it irrational to
- Not want to buy a new class in the store
- Not want to possibly have to buy a new character class slot
- Not want to level a new toon to 20
- Realize that your current crafter can hit the same level cap as the "new shiny"

[Aaxeyu]

Overexagerating the issue the entire time, claiming people are getting screwed over and their entire efforts up til now are a complete waste.

That people have their efforts wasted is one problem, and that turbine encourages crafting bots is another.
Even if Turbine would find a way to save peoples effort I would still complain about the crafting bot issue. My argument against crafting bots is not only that peoples effort are wasted.
You should know that, if you have read the thread.

We have. We just dont agree with you. There is a huge difference, as not agreeing with you =/= didnt read the thread, and it also =/= doesnt understand the issue.

I am not saying that he hasn't read the thread because he is not agreeing with me, I am saying that he has not read the thread because he is asking a question that I have answered multiple times already.

[netops]

Whilst trying to avoid the discussions over ‘fact’, ‘opinion’ etc. In my ‘Opinion’ the mid-level crafters have been presented with a CHOICE.

Working on some very broad-brush assumptions, there will be a sub-optimal crafting level (I am guessing around the 60-70 point) which represents the most difficult choice. The further from that point the lower the overall impact, i.e. the decisions are simpler for a level 25 crafter and a level 110 crafter.

OPTION 1.
Continue crafting.
Advantages: No perceived waste of resource. Impact of future changes is likely to be lower (note these changes could be beneficial or negative). In my opinion generates the ‘best’ crafter, as they are independent of class, and can TR without loosing any effectiveness.
Disadvantages: More expensive progress/less efficient route to cap.

OPTION 2
Create a ‘crafting bot’
Advantages: Efficient route to cap. If the cap is increased, through use of TR or feat swapping, further levelling can be optimised (with potential levelling grind).
Disadvantages: Requires a char slot. Needs to be levelled to 20 at the ‘right’ time. NEEDS to be levelled to 20. Looses 20 crafting levels if TRd & dedicates 3 feats to crafting.

OPTION 3
TR current crafter into an artificer
Advantages: Most efficient route to cap.
Disadvantages: All of option 2, plus additional levelling grind and loosing current build.

I see advantages and disadvantages on each side; I certainly wouldn’t consider myself ‘insane’ for choosing option 1 (which is what I will do with my current level 50ish crafter). Turbine has provided a balanced choice, they are not forcing anything and they have not nullified your current work. They have provided an additional ‘more efficient’ option to your current path, that has its own disadvantages.

If you SOLE goal is crafting cap with minimum resource, then option 3 wins, if you prefer the flexibility of being able to TR you crafter an not ‘waste’ a char slot on another ‘bot’ then option 1 is valid. If you can’t loose you current crafting build, and still are happy with the disadvantages, then option 2 wins.

It doesn’t seem to me as clear cut the arguments against this update seem to make out.

[karl_k0ch]

I certainly wouldn’t consider myself ‘insane’ for choosing option 1 (which is what I will do with my current level 50ish crafter).

Note that the change of the crafting XP curve is encouraging further crafting before U11, if you plan to stick to your crafter (option 1 or option 3).

If you have the mats to level up 5 crafting levels now, it is advisable to do so now, as U11 will put your crafting level to a higher value, thus giving access to higher level shards which unfortunately also have higher costs. The amount of mats might be enough to get you from 35 to 40 (leveling before u11), but it might not be enough to get you from 45 to 50 (leveling after u11). Of course, I pulled the +10 levels out of thin air, and it's merely there to give an illustrative number. I hope my point gets through anyway.

[Jaid314]

And again with the smug self-satisfaction and personal abuse that are the hallmarks of a failed argument.

If you could actually address why my points were wrong, rather than repeating "I'm clever and happy, you're not", it would advance the debate somewhat.

*shrug* not my fault that you can't see value in being able to craft what you want now (and that you haven't crafted anything at all), instead of having to wait for several months. personally, i'm glad that i haven't had to put all my shroud ingredients towards mineral II weapons to be effective. on my server at least, costs are something like... LDS 400k plat, LSS 250k plat, large bone 40k plat, the rest of the larges ~150k plat average.

my crafting planner tells me that i would need 5 LDS (~2 million plat), 3 LSS (~750k plat), 4 bones (~160k plat), and 12 other larges (~1.8 million plat) just to make one mineral II weapon, not including the small/medium cost (not that big a deal), the shards, the power cells, and the blank ingredients (likely themselves worth close to half a million plat if i sold them). if i take the number of mineral II weapons i've not had to make, never mind all the other cool stuff i've made for myself, the plat value of what i have crafted already in terms of what it has saved me is easily more than the cost of leveling up my crafting. could i make those after re-leveling my crafting? sure. if i don't mind throwing some characters on the shelf instead of playing them, that is. on the other hand, at that point it's costing me several months of not using several character slots, which i personally consider to be a much worse cost than losing some virtual resources that i gained without really expending significant effort.

so there's *my* proof that even if i abandoned everything i have worked for in crafting, that i have actually benefited considerably. where's your proof that you could not have benefited at all, as you seem to be claiming?

frankly, if those of us not at cap were really truly focused on crafting, we would be at cap (or at the very least, up to the point that we care about) already.

it's only even a *perceived* loss for those who are less than crafting level 75 (there is the claim that to get to 150, you're better off restarting if you're lower than 90, but that still presumes that *i* should pay for crafting levels 101-150, rather than charging others for anything i craft at those levels - something which i do not and will not accept as valid any time soon).

and yet, you are still getting a faster path to your crafting goals. that's the only reason you even "need" to restart your crafting, is that it will make you level your crafting faster. you are complaining about the perceived waste of crafting levels that you yourself decided to not make use of.

as for the gimped toons we'll be forced to group with, well, first off i've already demonstrated you can get your crafting bot to level 20 without having to take a single non-adventuring feat until you've got enough exp for level 20.

secondly, if you don't want to have an artificer that does both full casting and full repeater build, you've got feats to spare on an artificer anyways (especially if you ditch the repeater part)

[toughguyjoe]

Whilst trying to avoid the discussions over ‘fact’, ‘opinion’ etc. In my ‘Opinion’ the mid-level crafters have been presented with a CHOICE.

Working on some very broad-brush assumptions, there will be a sub-optimal crafting level (I am guessing around the 60-70 point) which represents the most difficult choice. The further from that point the lower the overall impact, i.e. the decisions are simpler for a level 25 crafter and a level 110 crafter.

OPTION 1.
Continue crafting.
Advantages: No perceived waste of resource. Impact of future changes is likely to be lower (note these changes could be beneficial or negative). In my opinion generates the ‘best’ crafter, as they are independent of class, and can TR without loosing any effectiveness.
Disadvantages: More expensive progress/less efficient route to cap.

OPTION 2
Create a ‘crafting bot’
Advantages: Efficient route to cap. If the cap is increased, through use of TR or feat swapping, further levelling can be optimised (with potential levelling grind).
Disadvantages: Requires a char slot. Needs to be levelled to 20 at the ‘right’ time. NEEDS to be levelled to 20. Looses 20 crafting levels if TRd & dedicates 3 feats to crafting.

OPTION 3
TR current crafter into an artificer
Advantages: Most efficient route to cap.
Disadvantages: All of option 2, plus additional levelling grind and loosing current build.

I see advantages and disadvantages on each side; I certainly wouldn’t consider myself ‘insane’ for choosing option 1 (which is what I will do with my current level 50ish crafter). Turbine has provided a balanced choice, they are not forcing anything and they have not nullified your current work. They have provided an additional ‘more efficient’ option to your current path, that has its own disadvantages.

If you SOLE goal is crafting cap with minimum resource, then option 3 wins, if you prefer the flexibility of being able to TR you crafter an not ‘waste’ a char slot on another ‘bot’ then option 1 is valid. If you can’t loose you current crafting build, and still are happy with the disadvantages, then option 2 wins.

It doesn’t seem to me as clear cut the arguments against this update seem to make out.

So if a moderator could come in and remove everything but the OP and this post, I think the thread could be closed.

I chose option 1, by the way.

[Cordovan]

Due to too many players' inability to debate in this thread without resorting to insults or personal attacks, this thread is now closed.