Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[Postumus]

Anybody who already has worked on crafting is basically screwed, relatively speaking, by this huge freebie given to newly made gimp crafting artificers.

I disagree. Some other player's crafting levels don't affect my crafting levels.

[Chai]

Then I would suggest not inferring meanings into what people are saying dkyle has been exesiveley clear he is talking about the affect it will have on him and a portion of the gaming environment like him. You obviously didn't understand that and you have been corected.

I clearly did understand it, and am disagreeing with that opinion. I have been corrected of nothing. Opinions can be agreed with or disagreed with, but they arent right or wrong.

These are exactly the statements he is making this change is bad for him and a certain sub set of people of some currently unknown number. I am one of them and to me leveling a new toon to 20 is a negligible cost in comparison to gaining 20 CL at the high end it will take far less time and resources.

And thats your choice. More power to you.

I have seen no one implying anyone who used the RUCrazy method have been screwed. I would say that they probably put in far more time at the crafting stations than anyone else has though.

No, they put in a couple days. It was MUCH faster, and at no cost.

So Kinda faster but not faster if you know what I'm saying. If someone got to the GB and holy burst before the rare loot needs I wouldn't say they have been screwed either but some people who are sitting before 65 now have a choice to make and most options simply suck. Either throw away all the crafting xp you have now TR your crafter into a human artificer.or pay out the nose in plat time for those last 20 levels.

Or gain the levels the old fashioned way like everyone else will, knowing that you can still make everything you need to during that time, since you dont need to be "at level" to make the items you want to make anyhow.

I would prefer we not encourage people to build craft bots but I'd be satisfied if we could move the xp because no matter what choice I make it's a bad choice.

Opinion. Its not a bad choice. You will make the choice that corresponds to your situation, and everyone else will do the same.

[wolflordnexus]

I said cost benefit ratio, not neutral costs
For you perhaps, for others perhaps not so much.

HMNNN I don't understand how I could be confused about that oh ya

As the Turbine cost benefit ratio is neutral, they are NOT encouraging bots. Sorry but support does not equal encouragement.

[Postumus]

YOUR previous crafting may very well turn out to be a waste - but it is only being wasted because YOU are making a choice to abandon it.

DING DING DING DING!

We have a winner!


I can't decide whether all this hue and cry is a case of 'someone else won't have to grind as much as I did!' or a case of 'you mean if I just waited another few months I wouldn't have had to grind as much as I did??!'


The first case is just jealousy, the second case is conveniently dismissing all the advantages of crafting from day one: cheaper recipes, recycling shards for xps, crafting usable items months before artificer is a reality, and being able to complain about every single crafting change that comes down the pike.


Frankly I'm mad I missed that one day sweet spot where we still got xps for crunching shards and there was no delay on the deconstruction machine.

[dkyle]

I clearly did understand it, and am disagreeing with that opinion.

This is what you said:

Ahhh, but a good portion of the griping on this issue is literally based on worrying about how others play, because the claim that those who already leveled crafting are being screwed, is saying that an advantage is being given to those who havent leveled crafting yet.

Call the above argument A.

I agree that that is a faulty argument, and I have never intentionally expressed anything like that. Doesn't say anything about the arguments I, and others, have actually been presenting.

I then denied that A was an argument I had expressed.

They are changing the game to punish previous effort, and reward starting over. It is very fair to blame them for that.

Call the above argument B

You know that arguement you told me you didnt make. You just made it again, heh.

Now, you claim that A = B. That they are the same argument, and B was me making argument A again.

Argument A dealt with comparing myself to how others play. I stated that I did not make that argument, as it is a lousy argument.

In Argument B, what I said dealt with my own crafting, and how I'm better off starting over. It is how the crafting change effects me.

You then said that I made the argument you described earlier, when I clearly did not. How others play is an entirely different issue than the effect the change has on how I play, and others in a similar situation.

So either you do not understand, or you believe that somehow my argument B is in fact the same as your stated argument A. So, since you say it's not the former, I suppose I should assume the latter. So, please, what is your reasoning for saying that an argument about the effect the changes have on my own game play is the same as an argument about how others game play effects me?

[wolflordnexus]

Opinion. Its not a bad choice. You will make the choice that corresponds to your situation, and everyone else will do the same.

yes all of the choices I have are bad choices . I can do any of the following.

A) I can stop crafting on my main rendering that time wasted and make a crafting bot.

B) I can TR my main and waste all my tomes raid completions future plans ect moot

C) I can just keep on chuging and take longer and spend more to reach the same goal.

Seriously they all suck.

I have no delusions that any of this matters though honestly the ship has sailed. Artificer will sell better with a crafting bonus and that's the bottom line.

At this point I'd personally like to see an xp transfer or account xp but I doubt we'll se that either it may be a bit to much coding to bother with.

[dkyle]

'someone else won't have to grind as much as I did!'

No. I don't care about this.

'you mean if I just waited another few months I wouldn't have had to grind as much as I did??!'

More or less. But more like: if I'd stopped at CL35, and saved my essences instead, I'd be strictly better off today than I am. Basically, non-participation would have been the better choice than participation.

the second case is conveniently dismissing all the advantages of crafting from day one: cheaper recipes, recycling shards for xps, crafting usable items months before artificer is a reality, and being able to complain about every single crafting change that comes down the pike.

Cheaper Recipes? I did not benefit. The cost increases were irrelevant in the levels I reached. And in fact, I crafted some using the original, more expensive recipes. I also level'd quite a bit before the cheaper Unbound recipes were available. But I'm not complaining about any of those things. Sure, my XP was more expensive, but it wasn't wasted.

Recycling shards for XPs? Outside of RUKrazy, which I did not do, this was a negligible contribution.

Usable Items? As I've said, my last useful items were around CL35. Every XP since then was for getting to mid 70s. As I haven't reached there, and now won't on my current crafter, that was wasted. My regret is not stopping at CL35. I do not regret crafting to that point.

Right to complain? Eh, it's a mixed bag

Frankly I'm mad I missed that one day sweet spot where we still got xps for crunching shards and there was no delay on the deconstruction machine.

Me too.

[Chai]

You then said that I made the argument you described earlier, when I clearly did not. How others play is an entirely different issue than the effect the change has on how I play, and others in a similar situation.

You didnt even quote the correct words, in either case. You found two things which were from completely different posts.

[dkyle]

You didnt even quote the correct words, in either case. You found two things which were from completely different posts.

OK, then what were the correct words?

And of course they were from completely different posts. That was the whole point. It's what I said, and what I quoted from you, followed by what you said, and what you quoted from me. I'm not seeing what's wrong here. Was there another argument that I told you I didn't make that you were referring to? If so, I'm not seeing it.

[Chai]

yes all of the choices I have are bad choices . I can do any of the following.

Opinion. I tend to disageree with these types of viewpoints, because good has come out of the crafting system and people using it regardless if they say otherwise. That of course too is a matter of opinion.

A) I can stop crafting on my main rendering that time wasted and make a crafting bot.

Time wasted? Opinion. If you made anything of value and used it over that period of time, or learned anything from the experience, like the best ways to level etc, then I disagree. Its not time wasted.

B) I can TR my main and waste all my tomes raid completions future plans ect moot

So now all the mats you didnt use are wasted as well? How about learning how to beat those raids? Time wasted?

C) I can just keep on chuging and take longer and spend more to reach the same goal.

What goal? To be able to make the same items that people at the max level can make, which you will be able to make anyhow?

Seriously they all suck.

No sir. You did the same thing the rest of us did. You played the game as it was relevant to be played during the eras you played those toons in, and you will continue to play the game how it is relevant to play it in the future after the update goes live, just like the rest of us will.

I have no delusions that any of this matters though honestly the ship has sailed. Artificer will sell better with a crafting bonus and that's the bottom line.

As is the case with most of the stuff that hits lammania, whether the feedback be good, bad, or indifferent.

At this point I'd personally like to see an xp transfer or account xp but I doubt we'll se that either it may be a bit to much coding to bother with.

Im on the fence on this one.

[Chai]

OK, then what were the correct words?

And of course they were from completely different posts. That was the whole point. It's what I said, and what I quoted from you, followed by what you said, and what you quoted from me. I'm not seeing what's wrong here. Was there another argument that I told you I didn't make that you were referring to? If so, I'm not seeing it.

Its clearly outlined. Arent you the guy telling people to read the thread again due to lack of understanding, which is in effect, lack of agreeing with you.

You should just be satisfied with telling people this is your opinion and stand by it.

[dkyle]

Its clearly outlined.

Arent you the guy telling people to read the thread again due to lack of understanding, which is in effect, lack of agreeing with you.

OK, is this what you were referring to then?

It involves people stopping worrying about how others do play or how they can play, and just play your game.

This is the exact same argument A that I specified previously. The argument based on worrying about how others play, compared to how I've played.

How can I stop when I was never worried about how others play in the first place?

And my denial of argument A.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't change anything. It's the same general argument you state, it's the same denial. I just quoted a different iteration of it.

So, again, how is my argument about how crafting effects me, the same as an argument about how my crafter compares to others?

You should just be satisfied with telling people this is your opinion and stand by it.

I am. This is me standing by my opinion, defending it.

[toughguyjoe]

Still going huh? Thanks for picking up my slack while I was playing the game Chai

Anyway, have fun guys. I know that Turbine has slapped the proverbial glove across your face...

[Aaxeyu]

No one is arguing that everything MUST be as per PnP. This game sucked bad when we had AoO - thankfully they changed it. But when your entire argument is essentially a whine, calling you on it IS a discussion. What are the majority of against posts complaining about? For someone that instructs others to read the thread surly you know: they are complaining that their current crafting is "wasted". Where I am from we call a groundless complaint like that whining.

You are wrong, it is not a groundless complaint. I will show you the grounds for it.

Opinion - and both have been proven false, in this and every other thread on the subject.

Nope, they are not opinions. They are facts. The first one I will adress later.
I am not sure what's keeping you from understanding the other one. It hasn't been proven wrong once. It's a truth. It follows logic.

So Your position is that previous crafting is a waste (or rather will be a waste). I understand that, but you have been unable to prove that to be the case.

No I haven't. I just didn't show it with numbers. It's a simple logic exercise.

If you want to see it in numbers I refer you to Dkyles posts.

Certainly starting over will be an option, and one that will even make sense for certain people, but NOT starting over will also be an option that will make sense for many people as well. YOUR previous crafting may very well turn out to be a waste - but it is only being wasted because YOU are making a choice to abandon it. That sadly does not make it a 'fact' it at best makes it right for you.

Yes indeed. Not everyone will be better off by starting over. No one have claimed that.

No, it's wasted because if I don't abandon it I will end up having to pay more than if I do. So the rational thing to do is to start over, and thus my previous crafting is wasted.

See, it is a fact, crafting is wasted. Not for everyone, but for some. For rational people below a certain crafting threshold

So now we have established that the change will makes peoples efforts wasted.

Now, onto the next point; The change will encourage crafting bots.
I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly don't understand the concept of incentive. Your whole argument against this point is based on your misunderstanding of what an incentive is.

If there were incentives to create haggle & craft bots, then yes Turbine would be encouraging them; as there are no such incentives Turbine is not encouraging them. It is a choice, and that choice has a cost.

Just because there is a choice with a cost doesn't mean there is no incentive.

Turbine is NOT encouraging people to roll a crafting bot; nor have they ever encouraged people to roll a hagglebot either. People have the choice to do so, and some take advantage of it - many however, do not. Many people play their bots in quests too. Indeed many people also have mule characters...

With the upcomming change turbine will give people incentive to roll a crafting bot. If you knew what an incentive was you would not disagree with that.

You are wrong, the planned crafting bonuses does infact encourage the creation of crafting bots. There is no lack of understanding from my part on that issue.
I have noticed that the concept of incentive is hard for the average forum poster to understand, so it's OK.

Here's how it works:
If say to you that I will give you a dollar if you jump off a rooftop you will most probably not do it, there is a cost and a choice, but the offered dollar is still an incentive, still an encouragement.
Yeah, that is a fact.
Hopefully you will understand what I am telling you now.
The character based bonuses to crafting works as a financial incentive to create crafting bots.
So we can establish that it is indeed a fact that the change will encourage crafting bots. Or do you want me to explain further?

Third point is whether or not it is bad to encourage crafting bots.

Your first problem here is that you claim that I have not supported my claim that crafting bots will make the game worse.
Well, that is a lie. You have very selective reading.

This is not something I claim to be a fact, but I have seen no argument or evidence for why I am wrong here.

There is no proof that Artificiers having crafting is making the game worse. That is simply not supported by the evidence. It certainly COULD happen, but it definitely has NOT happened.

No proof perhaps, but I would say that there is evidence.
The fact that no one has been able to come up with a reason for why it would be GOOD for the game, even though the topic has been discussed over hundreds of pages in many different threads is a pretty good indication.

I have also presented many reason for why the game will become worse.
I never claimed to have absolute proof, and I don't need to. I made a statement that I supported, and so far it still stands. That's how it works.

COMPLETELY and utter FUD. Not a shred of evidence. I could easily counter with the claim that nothing bad will come from class based bonuses to crafting! Ha, beat that! Not exactly what you expect from someone who apparently “knows how a discussion works” is it

Again, that is a well supported opinion that I have. There is nothing wrong with that.

I can easily disprove your claim that nothing bad will come from class based bonuses to crafting. Infact I have already done that in this thread and many others by simply bringing up some bad things that will come from it.

If I was in the position you claim then you couldeasily disprove my statement. But you can't, apparently.

Artificer does not HAVE to have its crafting bonuses, but until you can actually show damages, there is simply no reason for them NOT to have their bonus. Casting FUD about like it was your personal pet is not going to change that fact.

And I have shown why it's bad. Now if you want to defend it then just maybe you should show why it's good.

Opinion and utterly without proof. We have no idea if this will create craftbots or if that will make the game worse.

Oh wait; actually we do have the data on that: craftbots CURRENTLY exist on live and have NOT made the game worse.

Thanks for so clearly displaying that you do not understand the problem.
The problem comes with providing an financial incentive to create a crafting bot. It's not that crafting bots causes problems for other players.
Those who have crafting bots currently on live servers have done so not because some artificial incentive, but because their simply prefer to have a crafting bot, and that is great.
This has nothing to do about what I think other people should do with their characters.
It's about adding financial incentives that makes people do something they don't find interesting and fun to do for it's own sake (again, those who do find it fun and interesting would have done it anyways, and doesn't really need the incentive).

Laugh, hardly.

That is the conclusion I have drawn from participating in this discussion in many threads.

The question is difficult to answer simply because it is not germane and is premised upon an utterly flawed understanding of the issue. But if we ignore the evidence to the contrary, then it is good to encourage bots because it presents a choice.

The question is difficult to answer because it would completely ruin your position.
It's a simple question that is based on fully understanding the issue.

Some stray posts:

Ignoring that it is not a 'fact' (let alone an undisputable one laugh) whatsoever, and that Turbine neither encourages nor discourages any behavior (outside adherence to the CofC/EULA) you are by admittance fine with them encouraging behaviour YOU agree with, but not fine with them encouraging behaviour YOU disagree with. Really? And you wonder why your 'argument' is flawed.

Yes, I am not against every way turbine encourage behavior. There is nothing flawed about that.
The flaw is that you don't understand that I have infact supported my statements and through discussion come to the conclusion that the game is better off when the behavior in question is not encouraged. That is why I am against it being encouraged. Very simple really.

Would I consider playing an Artificer? As a buffer it is a possibility, but I like Bards. Would removing the crafting bonus affect my decision? No. So yes, it is true that Artificers do not NEED to have their crafting bonus, but then the argument could certainly be made that Sorc's do not NEED their faster cast time either. And before you try and counter, remember that at least Artificers have a basis for a crafting bonus whereas Sorcs have no such basis for faster casting. Ultimately the argument is not for those in favour of the bonus to prove why it is justified - the onus is on you to prove why the class should NOT get as much of its PnP abilities and flavour as possible.

Yes, one could argue that sorcs don't need their faster cast time. But the difference here is that the faster casting speed for sorcs is not something that hurts the game, quite the contrary IMO, I would say that it's a positive thing that adds diversion to the casting classes.
There is also a really profound difference between combat bonuses and crafting bonuses, so the comparisson does not make much sense in the first place.

Exactly: A non-combat ability that has no effect in questing is significantly less of an impact than a combat ability.

Prove that.

especially since the lore in this case is ENHANCING the game

Oh, is that a fact now?

Do not confuse better at leveling up crafting with better at crafting. They are distinctly different. There is the potential for an Artificer (or a Human, or a Human Arty) to level crafting easier, but that does NOT make them 'better crafters'.

I see your point here, but it's flawed. You need to look at it from another perspective. It does make them better suited for crafting due to the way crafting works. The bonuses let you get to where you want to be ALOT cheaper and quicker. Therefor they are the best choice for a crafter toon, or "best crafter".

"Best choice for a crafter" "best crafter". Potayto, potahto all over again.

Hagglebots exist and have not made the game worse.
Craftbots exist and have not made the game worse.

You have actually no way to know if they have made the game worse or not. So prove it.

There is no reason Artificers should NOT be a crafting class.

Come on, now you just come across as ignorant. There are plenty of reasons. You may not think that they are good reasons, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Yes, the class would only need minor tweaking if crafting was removed (a reversion to their proper spell progression perhaps) to be playable, but that would only make it a non-crafting class in function. If the Devs did NOT want a crafting class, there are plenty of other class options they could have explored even excluding Druids: Psions? Would have been my first choice because sometimes it does take a Kalashtar and there are two updates dedicated to the Quori & their invasion. But the Devs CHOOSE a crafting class to go with Cannith Crafting and as such it makes sense that they get some form of crafting bonus.

Any tweaking that artificiers would need to be playable if crafting bonuses were removed they will need if crafting bonuses remains aswell, because the crafting bonuses does not affect how they are played at all.

Artificiers without any crafting bonuses seem like a very interesting class to me.

So because you say it is a fact, it therefore MUST be a fact? Ignoring the ludicrousness of that position

That is an absolutely ridicolous position. Luckily I have not said anything of the kind. Stating that something is a fact is not the same as stating that "something is a fact just because I say it". It has been explained numerous times exactly why it's a fact, and I don't want or need to repeat myself everytime.

Laugh no. You start at level 1. If I was going to complain about crafting I would at least make sure my facts (that were actual facts and not subjective opinions) were correct

Starting at 0 or 1 makes absolutely no difference. yeah I misspoke so what, it is not relevant to the rest of the discussion at all. Even suggesting that is nothing short of trolling and a poor attempt to discredit my arguments.

[Aaxeyu]

It involves people stopping worrying about how others do play or how they can play, and just play your game.

I know that you have already made up your mind, but I just want to get this out there.

This has got nothing to do with worrying about how others play.
Saying that means that you have not understood the arguments being made.

[Bigrtt]

Translation: This doesnt effect me so it is not a problem.

So if you made your main your crafter you should just toss all your named and epic gear you grinded out and tr him into an artificer. I would have an awesome bank toon with an esos.

That's a pretty big assumption to make. My main character IS my crafter, the only gear I'm missing for him to be 'complete' is a few bits and pieces that I could count on 1 hand. So yes, it does effect me. Am I worried? Not at all, these things happens.

All I see here is a bunch of people with the 'poor me' attitude, like they feel they've been done over for spending time on crafting up until this point. As I said, a certain class of character getting a bonus over another in ONE aspect of the game isn't a big deal, it's like arguing over Wizards having less SP than Sorcerers....it's not an arguement, because that's how the game is designed!

[Aaxeyu]

As I said, a certain class of character getting a bonus over another in ONE aspect of the game isn't a big deal, it's like arguing over Wizards having less SP than Sorcerers....it's not an arguement, because that's how the game is designed!

Just because it's by design doesn't mean it's good and should stay the same forever.

[Jaid314]

a few notes:

- the theoretical future costs if the cap is boosted (which it is expected it will be) are irrelevant. the cost to get to where you want to be for yourself is the only relevant number. anything past 100 (and indeed, much of the stuff leading up to 100) is not going to be for yourself anyways, it's going to be for random other people who want you to craft for them. the only problem here is that some people are crazy, and think they need to pay the leveling cost of reaching a point where they only benefit other people. once you get to that point, stop paying for it out of your own pocket. if someone wants a level 101 unbound shard, it is their responsibility to pay that cost, not yours.

- the cost of feat swapping at level 20 (well, level 19, just before you take level 20) is negligible, actually. you can level a fully questing-oriented artificer up until level 19. when you get enough experience to take level 20, first: use your free feat swap to change one feat. second: use the flawless siberys shard you got (or should have gotten) while leveling up in gianthold. third: take level 20, use your artificer bonus feat to take the third dragonmark feat. the gold cost and the siberys shard for the one feat swap you actually have to pay for will already be easily earned in the process of leveling up.

- if it is cheaper for you to stop crafting now and start crafting later on an artificer, that means it is still cheaper for you overall. yes, not as cheap as it would be for someone who didn't craft at all, but at that point, you're getting into pointless comparisons which everyone is claiming they aren't making. you're complaining about what someone else is paying. either it is cheaper for you to make the new character (and therefore this change lowers the cost of you getting to the crafting level you wanted, and is therefore beneficial to you) or it is not cheaper, and you didn't waste anything because you're not ditching your already-gained experience. even if we were to ignore the benefit you had gotten from your crafting already (which for some people could be a significant benefit, though admittedly not for everyone), there are two possibilities: you will either get closer to your goal in crafting after U11 goes live, or you will at the very least not get any further, regardless of what you choose to do. there is no outcome where you personally, or anyone else, are any worse off. regardless of how it happens, U11 is going to make it cheaper for you to reach the crafting level you would like to have.

[toughguyjoe]

Man, I think that post up there by Aaxeyu is like, the one of the longest posts I've ever seen.

I get it, I really do. You feel slighted because someone is going to be able to do something easier than you did it.

I understand your pain. I also think you should buck up and accept it as the inevitability that it was.

The best part though, I when you all call them "Crafting bots"

If I understand right that you still get the repair spells from the marks of making..and can use them to heal yourself when in a pinch without using your spell points...

Hmm. I think an artificer could fit those in without "Gimping" himself so bad. I mean the general sentiment was that they can't ever be taken into a raid. Ludicrous.

[dkyle]

I get it, I really do. You feel slighted because someone is going to be able to do something easier than you did it.

That is not at all the point. You do not understand. You are stating something that Ax and I are not saying.

The point is that we are encouraged to abandon our previous effort, and make a crafting bot, ourselves. Our previous effort is for naught, because the better (cheaper, faster) way to craft, going forward, in the long run, is to start over. What other people do, how easy other people have it, is utterly besides the point.

This has been explained countless times already, including the aforementioned "long post".

If I understand right that you still get the repair spells from the marks of making..and can use them to heal yourself when in a pinch without using your spell points...

The feats are blatantly terrible for actual questing. A few clickies of Repair spells on a Human artificer is just laughable.