Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[Jahmin]

Whether you see it as a waste or not is irrelevant. The fact that it is a waste still remains.

So because you say it is a fact, it therefore MUST be a fact? Ignoring the ludicrousness of that position, let us quickly review your previous track record on self-stated facts. How max DPS is your Monster again? Because reviewing that thread, I see that you told us that it was a fact that it was max DPS numerous times. Even after agreeing that other variations of the build produced more DPS. Maybe max DPS means something different to you, or perhaps it is simply lost in translation. But in English stating something is a fact does not make it so.

Your position is that previous crafting is a waste (or rather will be a waste). I understand that, but you have been unable to prove that to be the case. Certainly starting over will be an option, and one that will even make sense for certain people, but NOT starting over will also be an option that will make sense for many people as well. YOUR previous crafting may very well turn out to be a waste - but it is only being wasted because YOU are making a choice to abandon it. That sadly does not make it a 'fact' it at best makes it right for you.

You don't start over from 20. You start over from 0 and level up to [max crafting level - 20]. Those last 20 levels that you don't have to do will save you enormous amounts of work and plat.

Laugh no. You start at level 1. If I was going to complain about crafting I would at least make sure my facts (that were actual facts and not subjective opinions) were correct

[Chai]

They are changing the game to punish previous effort, and reward starting over. It is very fair to blame them for that.

You know that arguement you told me you didnt make. You just made it again, heh.

This does not punish previous effort. I can cite several examples that it does not, starting with the obvious players who leveled using the 1XP / decon method all the way up and are at max level. Those players not only leveled at minimal to no cost, they did so in a couple days, and have been using their high end boss beaters for months now.

It may punish YOUR previpous effort, but this is due to YOUR opinion of the situation, and is not factual for every single player or even the majority of players.

[dkyle]

You know that arguement you told me you didnt make. You just made it again, heh.

Uh, no. That is not the argument you pointed out before. I'd suggest reading more carefully. Perhaps you will notice that I said nothing about any other peoples' crafters in comparison to my own. That was the operative part of the argument you previously noted.

It may punish YOUR previpous effort, but this is due to YOUR opinion of the situation, and is not factual for every single player or even the majority of players.

For a certain segment of players, of which I am one of, it punishes our previous effort. I've never claimed it was every single player. I don't know if it's the majority (likely not, as the majority probably didn't craft at all). But I wouldn't be surprised if it was the majority of people who put any real effort at all into crafting. But that's irrelevant. There is clearly a non-empty segment of players who are punished by this change.

This is due to the facts of my situation, not strictly my own opinion of the situation. Opinion is involved, of course, as it is in almost all cases. But calling something an "opinion" doesn't make it invalid.

[wolflordnexus]

If there were incentives to create haggle & craft bots, then yes Turbine would be encouraging them; as there are no such incentives Turbine is not encouraging them. It is a choice, and that choice has a cost.

How on earth can you even type this with a straight face. Of course there are incentives to both more plat from a haggle bot is most definitely an incentive. Easier leveling of crafting from a Crafting bot is most definitely an incentive.
therefore Turbine is most definitely encouraging them. Of course it's a choice, of course it has a cost I can also encourage you to go to Burger King instead of McDonald in a myriad of different ways. That doesn't mean I removed the choice.

[dkyle]

Facts? The fact that YOU (might) be better off starting over means that EVERYONE is better off starting over.

Did I say that EVERYONE is better off starting over?

I believe I've said otherwise numerous times.

The fact that your currect crafting investment is only wasted if YOU CHOOSE to start over?

That is a fact.

It's also a fact that if I don't choose to start over, I will be wasting future effort by crafting using a less efficient crafter.

The fact is that either choice I make, I'm wasting something. Better to choose the option with less waste, I'd think, but that's just my opinion.

Or the fact that you had access to easier recipes and quick XP that Artificers will not. That actual fact?

I did not. I did not reach the recipes that got significant cost increases before they got bumped up. I still have not.

And calling the RUKrazy method "quick XP" is entirely your opinion. One that I strongly disagree with.

Of course it is unreasonable. Sure it might make sense for you, and if we accept that you are not trolling then you believe it is, but that does not mean everybody does.

An opinion doesn't need to be universally held for it to be reasonable.

If you'd rather spend hours in the crafting hall playing inventory management, spending huge amounts of in-game resources, than level a new character to 20, or even just 9 to get a signficant boost from the DMarks and +4 from Artificer, that's your opinion, but certainly not mine. I wouldn't even call it unreasonable, but it does seem rather strange to me.

If anything the people that did not previously craft (such as myself) are at a significant disadvantage compared to those that crafted previously.

You might be at a disadvantage due to me leveling to 35 and making decent boss beaters. I am not complaining about that.

You are certainly not at a disadvantage due to me leveling past that. I got nothing out of it, and if you start with a crafting bot, you'll overshadow that XP I got very quickly.

And... wait... you've never crafted, yet you'd rather do tons of it than level a new character to 20? Really? And my opinion, based on having actually crafted, and leveled many characters, is the "unreasonable" opinion?

[Jahmin]

How on earth can you even type this with a straight face. Of course there are incentives to both more plat from a haggle bot is most definitely an incentive. Easier leveling of crafting from a Crafting bot is most definitely an incentive.
therefore Turbine is most definitely encouraging them. Of course it's a choice, of course it has a cost I can also encourage you to go to Burger King instead of McDonald in a myriad of different ways. That doesn't mean I removed the choice.

Maybe because we are in Eberron?

I have always agreed that more plat is better, and that easier crafting is better - but they would only qualify as encouragement if there were no corresponding DISINCENTIVES. A character slot, leveling up what most seem to feel is a 'gimp' character, etc are all costs that DISCOURAGE having a bot toon.

As the Turbine cost benefit ratio is neutral, they are NOT encouraging bots. Sorry but support does not equal encouragement.

[Chai]

Uh, no. That is not the argument you pointed out before. I'd suggest reading more carefully. Perhaps you will notice that I said nothing about any other peoples' crafters in comparison to my own. That was the operative part of the argument you previously noted.

Im pretty sick of reading the "read the thread more carefully" stuff simply because people arguing your stance disagree with with other people.

Disagreement does not automatically imply that someone either lacks understanding of the issue, didnt read the thread, or doesnt understand youre stance on the issue. It means they disagree. You have your opinion and they have theirs. They are no more or less guilty of reading or not reading the thread than you are.

For a certain segment of players, of which I am one of, it punishes our previous effort.

Yeap, you are outlining a specific situation where it is YOUR OPINION that the situation punishes you due to specific circumstances surrounding the situation. These arent the statements you are making however.

This is due to the facts of my situation, not strictly my own opinion of the situation. Opinion is involved, of course, as it is in almost all cases. But calling something an "opinion" doesn't make it invalid.

It doesnt make it a fact either.

And calling the RUKrazy method "quick XP" is entirely your opinion. One that I strongly disagree with.

Some people leveled in one day using this. Many people leveled in two days using that method. It certainly was quick xp compared to how long it takes to level nowdays. Some people are implying these players somehow got screwed over. LOL - I wish I would have leveled that way, so I could have been using my perfect weapon boss beaters the entire time. Perhaps its the rest of us who DIDNT level using the carpal tunnel inducing method who got screwed, heh.

[Wrendd]

Love this thread!

[Jahmin]

And... wait... you've never crafted, yet you'd rather do tons of it than level a new character to 20? Really? And my opinion, based on having actually crafted, and leveled many characters, is the "unreasonable" opinion?

In this and every other thread I have always been upfront that I do not craft live - mostly because I have zero faith in the Devs not to frak it up, and thus have avoided the problem you believe you now face. I have however crafted at length on Lameia (to high levels when there was quick crafting) and have friends who have craft live (some to cap repeatedly). This and the ability to read the crafting wiki is roughly equivalent experience to your admittedly limited crafting level. Indeed if one understands the system, one does not have to craft at all - which is how we are both able to debate the effectiveness of cap crafting.

Regardless, I understand you feel slighted despite the big BETA warning, and very little if anything that I say can change that. I completely concede that you have complete control over how you feel. However, _I_ feel that your position on the matter is over stated, and when combined with the FUD slingers creates an issue that does not generally exist.

You received a benefit from crafting early. You have some nice boss beaters. Sure you may view your crafting past that as wasted (although I disagree) but to say you received no benefit is simply false.

Given all the uncertainties about crafting, that are STILL to be decided (150lvls? 300? 200?) crafting early was a risk. You made some assumptions and unfortunately not all of them worked out for you, but that is the risk when you assume.

I also do not think it was a major logical leap to conclude that Artificer might be the class we got this year and that it might have some bonus to crafting. This was discussed on the forums before crafting even went to preview let alone live. As such I simply cannot understand the opposition to this concept, and indeed I feel it comes down to people not wanting someone to be better than them at something. Which frankly I feel is a pretty pathetic response.

Ultimately after four (five?) threads now I think it is fair to say that we are not going to completely agree. I get that you are ****ed; I just do not feel it is justified. I wish you the best with leveling your craftbot.

Cheers!


J-

[Lord_Thanatos]

I have no interest in all of these circular arguments but all I have to say about this, is how Turbine could mess up cannith crafting so much when it's analog in LoTRO works so well in comparison. It's one of the better ones I have seen implemented so far in an MMO. (LoTRO's, not DDO's of course)



Edit: Also hiding behind the beta title even tho it is on live and the fact that things were added into the store with regards to crafting before it had been finish, just screams greed and incompetence to me. As well as going back on it being build neutral when they distinctly said so in the beginning.

[wolflordnexus]

Im pretty sick of reading the "read the thread more carefully" stuff simply because people arguing your stance disagree with with other people.

Disagreement does not automatically imply that someone either lacks understanding of the issue, didnt read the thread, or doesnt understand youre stance on the issue. It means they disagree. You have your opinion and they have theirs. They are no more or less guilty of reading or not reading the thread than you are.

Then I would suggest not inferring meanings into what people are saying dkyle has been exesiveley clear he is talking about the affect it will have on him and a portion of the gaming environment like him. You obviously didn't understand that and you have been corected.

Yeap, you are outlining a specific situation where it is YOUR OPINION that the situation punishes you due to specific circumstances surrounding the situation. These arent the statements you are making however.

These are exactly the statements he is making this change is bad for him and a certain sub set of people of some currently unknown number. I am one of them and to me leveling a new toon to 20 is a negligible cost in comparison to gaining 20 CL at the high end it will take far less time and resources.

Some people leveled in one day using this. Many people leveled in two days using that method. It certainly was quick xp compared to how long it takes to level nowdays. Some people are implying these players somehow got screwed over. LOL - I wish I would have leveled that way, so I could have been using my perfect weapon boss beaters the entire time. Perhaps its the rest of us who DIDNT level using the carpal tunnel inducing method who got screwed, heh.

I have seen no one implying anyone who used the RUCrazy method have been screwed. I would say that they probably put in far more time at the crafting stations than anyone else has though. So Kinda faster but not faster if you know what I'm saying. If someone got to the GB and holy burst before the rare loot needs I wouldn't say they have been screwed either but some people who are sitting before 65 now have a choice to make and most options simply suck. Either throw away all the crafting xp you have now TR your crafter into a human artificer.or pay out the nose in plat time for those last 20 levels.

I would prefer we not encourage people to build craft bots but I'd be satisfied if we could move the xp because no matter what choice I make it's a bad choice.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Laugh no. You start at level 1. If I was going to complain about crafting I would at least make sure my facts (that were actual facts and not subjective opinions) were correct

Nice red herring.

I've read many of your last posts in this thread, and I've got to say. For someone with very little to say, you sure post a lot.

This change will, in fact, make more people create dedicated "craft bots". And in my opinion, and in many others, that is not a good thing. Why do I have to gimp my character just to have the best crafter? There is no answer to that question that can be justified.

You fail to realize the most important difference between today's craft bots and the craft bots of tomorrow - that is, today's have the possibility of being viable in quests, while tomorrow's won't.

[wolflordnexus]

Maybe because we are in Eberron?

I have always agreed that more plat is better, and that easier crafting is better - but they would only qualify as encouragement if there were no corresponding DISINCENTIVES. A character slot, leveling up what most seem to feel is a 'gimp' character, etc are all costs that DISCOURAGE having a bot toon.

As the Turbine cost benefit ratio is neutral, they are NOT encouraging bots. Sorry but support does not equal encouragement.

They are absolutely not neutral costs. Different yes, and some may not be able to make them but leveling a char to 20 is in no way comparable resource wise time or plat value to the last 20 levels of crafting.

[wolflordnexus]

I also do not think it was a major logical leap to conclude that Artificer might be the class we got this year and that it might have some bonus to crafting. This was discussed on the forums before crafting even went to preview let alone live. As such I simply cannot understand the opposition to this concept, and indeed I feel it comes down to people not wanting someone to be better than them at something. Which frankly I feel is a pretty pathetic response.

J-

And this is where you ultimately fail this statement pretty much sums up a direct attack on anyone who doesn't agree with you not only are they stupid but also petty. This pretty much sums up your argument's first you assume you know peoples motivations then continue arguing that they have those motivations after it's been made abundantly clear that those are simply your misconceptions.

[NytCrawlr]

Love this thread!

Made my day, thanks!

Wish I could give more rep, rep wand is apparently out of charges the rest of the day.

[Doxmaster]

Yeah I'm really consoled that I can make a new char to craft, given that my current crafting is 97/94/91.

I still cant quite wrap my head around the arguments against it...People say that the Artificers are Super-better-ultra-special-Number-1 crafter despite Live crafting characters having over 90 in multiple disciplines. How long did it take to reach level 70? How much of a grind was it?

According you you, it was a pretty big grind and a lot of hard work....so people having to start a new character, gimp it straight out of the gates and grind for 75% of the time you grind-ed to make it equal to you is horrific? Never mind the fact that they are burning a character slot for a character they cant even TR without losing either 10 of their 'free' crafting levels if they aren't an artificer again or all 20 of them, if they cant fit the Dragonmark again.

How much of a profit are you guys making that being the absolute best crafter is the only option for making money? I understand that can make a tidy sum, but from the way people are posting, it seems the Diablo Plat-for-Cash AH is being included in DDO and that's how you planned to pay your mortgage.
Love and tolerate them. Love and tolerate the to DEATH. Ok. I am going to +rep everyone explaining things in this thread until this starts making sense.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I still cant quite wrap my head around the arguments against it...People say that the Artificers are Super-better-ultra-special-Number-1 crafter despite Live crafting characters having over 90 in multiple disciplines. How long did it take to reach level 70? How much of a grind was it?

According you you, it was a pretty big grind and a lot of hard work....so people having to start a new character, gimp it straight out of the gates and grind for 75% of the time you grind-ed to make it equal to you is horrific? Never mind the fact that they are burning a character slot for a character they cant even TR without losing either 10 of their 'free' crafting levels if they aren't an artificer again or all 20 of them, if they cant fit the Dragonmark again.

How much of a profit are you guys making that being the absolute best crafter is the only option for making money? I understand that can make a tidy sum, but from the way people are posting, it seems the Diablo Plat-for-Cash AH is being included in DDO and that's how you planned to pay your mortgage.

I imagine the exp required to get from 130 to 150 will be about the same as 0-90. It's just an educated guess based on what they did with the guild exp, though.

[Zachski]

And in my opinion, and in many others, that is not a good thing. Why do I have to gimp my character just to have the best crafter?

You don't have to gimp your character just to have the best crafter.

Any character that has 150 in crafting is the "best crafter".

Artificer gets there quicker. But ANY class can reach that.

That argument of yours has been deconstructed how many times now?

Not to mention that, hey, feat swap shards exist. You can run to 20 on an Artificer with the proper feats, and then switch any three out once you've settled down and decided you want a craftbot.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

You don't have to gimp your character just to have the best crafter.

Any character that has 150 in crafting is the "best crafter".

Artificer gets there quicker. But ANY class can reach that.

That argument of yours has been deconstructed how many times now?

Not to mention that, hey, feat swap shards exist. You can run to 20 on an Artificer with the proper feats, and then switch any three out once you've settled down and decided you want a craftbot.

The word "best", is the superlative of "good", in other words, the "best" is someone that is better than the rest.
Now, being "the best", does not mean that one can do stuff that the other's can't achieve. It means that you do it better than them, and if that means that you save more gold, and hence do it better than them in that way, then so be it. And this is pretty much the case.

No one would contradict me if I said that sorcerers are "the best" levelers, yet, everyone eventually reaches level 20.

In other words; speed, saving plat, saving time, etc. All these things are stuff that makes one class better than an other for crafting. And if something can be "better", it can also be "the best".

Yes, you can swap feats, so what? It makes you useless for questing by my standards. Why would someone have to make the choice of either questing with the character, or crafting with the character? Isn't it best if one can do both?

[Jahmin]

Nice strawman.

Here is something else that you do not know what it means.

I've read many of your last posts in this thread, and I've got to say. For someone with very little to say, you sure post a lot.

I have noticed that people that get pwn'd throughout the entire thread often resort to this defence. Sadly saying the same thing different ways to get through has been lost. Cannot say I am surprised though

This change will, in fact, make more people create dedicated "craft bots". And in my opinion, and in many others, that is not a good thing. Why do I have to gimp my character just to have the best crafter? There is no answer to that question that can be justified.

The problem is not the answer, the problem is the question. You do not need Making Marks or Artificer to have the 'best' crafter. It may make it easier, but a craftbot cannot craft anything a regular crafter cannot.

Riddle me this: How much must a crafter craft in order to be better than a craftbot at crafting?

You fail to realize that the most important difference between today's craft bots and the craft bots of tomorrow - that is, today's have the possibility of being viable in quests, while tomorrow's won't.

Actually I realize perfectly well that being a bot has no bearing on a character's viability in quests.

Honestly I had wondered when you would show up and try to bail your buddy out: too little, too late.

they are absolutely not neutral costs different yes and some may not be able to make them but leveling a char to 20 is in no way comparable resource wise time or plat value to the last 20 levels of crafting.

I said cost benefit ratio, not neutral costs
For you perhaps, for others perhaps not so much.

And this is where you ultimately fail this statement pretty much sums up a direct attack on anyone who doesn't agree with you not only are they stupid but also petty. This pretty much sums up your argument's first you assume you know peoples motivations then continue arguing that they have those motivations after it's been made abundantly clear that those are simply your misconceptions.

I believe you are trying to say that since other people posted that Artificer might be the new class and due to Cannith crafting might have some advantage because Artificers are you know crafters after all, that makes everyone who thought otherwise stupid? Interesting position. Certainly more refined than your position in the current thread because basing an opinion on what someone else FEELS would be a great foundation for debate.

Petty on the other hand would be pointing out that your character violates the naming conventions…