We agree then. For your case and some others, starting over may be the best move. This is not true of all crafters, nor is it required. If you should choose to start over, then yes indeed, your efforts have been wasted. If you do not, then your efforts were not wasted. Either way it is a choice, one you have to make.
If you choose not to be the absolute min/max best in crafting, then you have wasted nothing.
If you decide you want every single possible point, then yes. Your Artificer will not be quite as powerful as it could be. (Gimp? Debatable. Non-optimal? Sure.)
What we're trying to point out repeatedly here is that these are choices, ones you have to make for yourself. Nothing is required. Nothing is being taken away from you.
I can see that you've thought this through, and that from your perspective, you feel as though you've been cheated. There's no amount of debate or logic that can possibly dispute that point, as those are your personal feelings, so I'm going to give you a +1 and wish you a very good day sir on your trek to be an optimal crafter.
edit: I'll have to give you that +1 when my timer cools down. Sorry about that.
Last edited by danotmano1998; 08-24-2011 at 01:33 PM.
<-Curelite Bottling Company->
Originally Posted by Chilldude
Grinding an Artificer to 131/128 crafting (depending on whether you use the marks or not) before even being allowed to level him up is, in my opinion, a clear discouragement of making a crafting bot.
Since crafting cost and time is "so high" (apparently, even with being lowered) and you always start at level 1, meaning you always get 1 bonus on the least expensive level.
Can it be done? Sure. Should it be done? Anyone dedicated enough to do this should have the benefit of doing it.
No one is forcing you to reset. Just like no one is forcing you to stop playing your character until the update happens, bringing in the increased First Time EXP boost for doing quests.
Funnily enough, there is one good thing I can say about crafting bots: they consolidate everything into a nice little package so that you don't have to worry about which of your characters is higher in what. This is convenient.
At the same time, you have all but admitted that you have nothing bad to say about crafting bots, just that "There's no good points about them, therefore it MUST be bad"
That's definitely black and white thinking Haven't you ever heard of "neutral"?
Ah well, this thread is getting ridiculous. The logic of why it's appropriate AND beneficial for an Artificer to get a crafting bonus has to deal with people setting up strawmen about why it somehow isn't, by comparing it to things like loot bonuses and having your crafting levels forcefully taken from you and stuff which doesn't actually relate at all to the situation.
The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<
By including the bonus CLs, I meant, XP for 130, plus 20 bonus CLs, to reach 150. Not XP for 150 plus bonuses for 170. That would indeed be a very silly thing for someone to do.
A character sitting at 130 worth of XP, plus the bonuses, is better off than a character sitting at 150 worth of XP, when the cap is raised, because he will need fewer XP to cap again.
It's a choice between wasting past effort, and wasting even more future effort. Either way, it's a waste. And I think it's pretty obvious what the better choice is.We agree then. For your case and some others, starting over may be the best move. This is not true of all crafters, nor is it required. If you should choose to start over, then yes indeed, your efforts have been wasted. If you do not, then your efforts were not wasted. Either way it is a choice, one you have to make.
Yes I would be. I would be wasting my effort when I need to spend more essences to gain more XP than if I had started over.If you choose not to be the absolute min/max best in crafting, then you have wasted nothing.
Ok, I'll give, you have certainly shown that. I was hoping for an essence = n XP breakdown, but that is probably asking too much.
Basically, if not starting over costs 1k XP per essence, and starting over costs that plus 500 XP per essence but eventually levels out, I want people to see that, and then decide for themselves.
My earlier contention, and what started all of this, is how you and others are selling this (and maybe it was just more of the others, it's all a blur at this point). For you it is a waste, fine, your entitled to your subjective viewpoint. What others have to decide though is it a waste for them, and ultimately I think the whole thing would have been perceived better if it wasn't labeled with such doom and gloom and outrage.
Whether you like it or not, and I will say it till I am blue in the face, everyone who participated in crafting at this point participated at their own risk since it was an open beta, myself included, that is why I took it slowly, just like I do everything else in this game. I didn't buy a lot of essences off the AH, I didn't deconstruct everything, and I bought very few products from the store to help me with said crafting. It's a shame so many spent so much on this part of the game, but cest le vie, and ultimately, those that participated only made it better for everyone.
Should you be compensated in some way? I don't think so, you didn't have to participate.
Last edited by NytCrawlr; 08-24-2011 at 01:39 PM.
Argonnessen
Nyess Malwyss Daireann Tylesia Shideh
Do not confuse better at leveling up crafting with better at crafting. They are distinctly different. There is the potential for an Artificer (or a Human, or a Human Arty) to level crafting easier, but that does NOT make them 'better crafters'.
In the absence of anything else, it certainly is. It is definitely better than "they should not be better crafters than me" or my personal favorite "sure they are crafters but that does not mean they should be good at crafting"
Ignoring that it is not a 'fact' (let alone an undisputable one laugh) whatsoever, and that Turbine neither encourages nor discourages any behavior (outside adherence to the CofC/EULA) you are by admittance fine with them encouraging behaviour YOU agree with, but not fine with them encouraging behaviour YOU disagree with. Really? And you wonder why your 'argument' is flawed.
Turbine is NOT encouraging people to roll a crafting bot; nor have they ever encouraged people to roll a hagglebot either. People have the choice to do so, and some take advantage of it - many however, do not. Many people play their bots in quests too. Indeed many people also have mule characters...
Laugh, hardly.
Or far more likely, you have failed to provide any evidence that you are correct, let alone prove it so. Indeed, this is most probably because YOU fail to understand the implications of the bonuses.
More opinion
While I am in general agreement with you in most of your contributions to this thread (and others on this issue), I think you are capitulating on that issue too quickly.
Read the post I put a few above this one and ask yourself: In a crafting system with an indeterminate ceiling and and indeterminate cost for crafting anything in the top 30 levels for the purpose of gaining XP, how can you be certain that 75 or 90 is the correct cutoff?
If 75, roughly half of the 125 cap right now (by xp) is the current cuttoff, who's to say that when the cap is 200 that 125 wouldn't be the point you should have started over? What if crafting in the post 150 or 200 range requires inordinately large amounts of resources that you wouldn't have to spend if you had the "right" class/race?
Given that general foresight, anyone who plans to craft to the ceiling (whatever it might end up being) should be looking forward to what the true value of the +20 is likely to be, not necessarily looking only at what it is *right now.*
Why is that a discouragement? If you're jonesing to level an Artificer right now, just level a different, non-crafting one. You won't even have to waste feats on him.
The only added cost is the character slot. If you're so chock full of characters that you don't even have a singe bank character, I suppose this could be an issue. But that doesn't seem like the usual situation for most people.
Huh? Are you confused on how the bonus CLs work?Since crafting cost and time is "so high" (apparently, even with being lowered) and you always start at level 1, meaning you always get 1 bonus on the least expensive level.
They always apply to the most expensive levels, because they always stack on top of your actual earned XP.
The reason waiting to level is optimal is because you can level using lower level, more efficient recipes. But even if you cap your craftingbot to 20 before crafting at all, it's still a huge bonus to reaching your desired crafting level sooner and cheaper.
XP earned now, running quests, will not be wasted once U11 comes. You lose some potential XP, but gaining XP now has clear benefits that, for most people, would outweigh waiting.No one is forcing you to reset. Just like no one is forcing you to stop playing your character until the update happens, bringing in the increased First Time EXP boost for doing quests.
On the other hand, I have gained nothing out of the ~10k XP I've earned past CL35.
Why would anyone split up their crafting schools before? There's no good reason to do that. That consolidation was always available.Funnily enough, there is one good thing I can say about crafting bots: they consolidate everything into a nice little package so that you don't have to worry about which of your characters is higher in what. This is convenient.
Craftingbots aren't terrible. But they're also not, in any way that I can see, good. Why is leveling an obvious, boring character to 20 and never questing with it again something to be encouraged? How does rewarding that make the game better?At the same time, you have all but admitted that you have nothing bad to say about crafting bots, just that "There's no good points about them, therefore it MUST be bad"
In general, I'd say that rewards for doing easy boring things are not good for the game. A game should reward fun and challenging activities.
Community Member
You're right.
I should've said "I wouldn't start over yet".
I have no interest in unbound crafting so if I were already at 90, I'd just sit there until there was a clear reason to go higher. At that point, I'd decide whether I should start over.
But to anyone who's in it for the long haul, yeah, I shouldn't be so certain that 90 is the cutoff. That gets into a lot heavier math, and it seems likely that the real cutoff would be higher.
The silver lining for me is that I have an easy, if still thoroughly disappointing, choice. I should obviously start over. If I were at 90 and actually cared about leveling into unbound crafting now? Yeah, that's a tough one.
Opinion and utterly without proof. We have no idea if this will create craftbots or if that will make the game worse.
Oh wait; actually we do have the data on that: craftbots CURRENTLY exist on live and have NOT made the game worse.
Hagglebots exist and have not made the game worse.
Craftbots exist and have not made the game worse.
So really, your argument is that U11 is going to 'invent' something that already exists and that this 'invention' is going to suddenly make the game worse despite craftbots not actually making the game worse on live. Notwithstanding all the ACTUAL EVIDENCE and FACTS to the contrary this is your 'main problem'? Wow...
Actually, I was not aware of that. And Aaxeyu wasn't, either, apparently, judging by one of his previous posts.
That actually makes more sense and makes this better, in my opinion.
Alright, fair enough.The reason waiting to level is optimal is because you can level using lower level, more efficient recipes. But even if you cap your craftingbot to 20 before crafting at all, it's still a huge bonus to reaching your desired crafting level sooner and cheaper.
Other than the ~10k XP that you've earned. Which still puts you ahead of a level 1 Artificer, meaning that you're still ahead of the race.On the other hand, I have gained nothing out of the ~10k XP I've earned past CL35.
This is also true. Which makes me wonder why this thread exists.Why would anyone split up their crafting schools before? There's no good reason to do that. That consolidation was always available.
How does it make it worse?Craftingbots aren't terrible. But they're also not, in any way that I can see, good. Why is leveling an obvious, boring character to 20 and never questing with it again something to be encouraged? How does rewarding that make the game better?
In my opinion, it makes it better because it gives you an option. Unlike Haggle Bards, Artificers don't actually have to sacrifice much to get their bonus crafting levels, you just have to get to level 20. Sure, you have those three feats you can take, but you don't have to. It's an insignificant bonus compared to the Artificer simply being an Artificer.
A "crafting bot" could very well be any artificer because of that +20
So, wait, doing quests to earn EXP to level to 20 is rewarding fun and challenging activities. Doing quests to earn EXP to get to level 20 to get 20 bonus crafting levels, despite entailing much the same activity (aside from the crafting you do on the side) isn't rewarding fun and challenging activities?In general, I'd say that rewards for doing easy boring things are not good for the game. A game should reward fun and challenging activities.
You're free to make a Maker Artificer if you want, but personally, the feat cost just isn't worth it to me. Suddenly, my Artificer, should I choose to make one, is a crafting bot while still being a properly geared character because he isn't sacrificing a single thing to get better at crafting, just relying on his natural levels.
The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<
Except that my crafter is further from the finish line, so no, he's not really ahead. They may start at the same point, and my crafter has already started, but craftingbots have such an enormously shorter distance to go, that I'm still better off starting over.
Huh? Since when is this thread about crafting all three schools on the same character? Why would anyone even argue about that? I'm so confused...This is also true. Which makes me wonder why this thread exists.
Only if by "insignificant" you mean exactly the same. The feats give +10. The Artificer gets +10. They stack together to make +20.It's an insignificant bonus compared to the Artificer simply being an Artificer.
Leveling any character is easy. It's the stuff you do after that that is challenging. A craftingbot has little reason to do that stuff.So, wait, doing quests to earn EXP to level to 20 is rewarding fun and challenging activities. Doing quests to earn EXP to get to level 20 to get 20 bonus crafting levels, despite entailing much the same activity (aside from the crafting you do on the side) isn't rewarding fun and challenging activities?
And yes, I would consider leveling a gimped character to 20 that I'll never play again much less fun then leveling a real character that has a future.
Last edited by dkyle; 08-24-2011 at 02:16 PM.
Oh. I was under the impression that the dragon marks provided +1 and the Artificer got +1 per level. Mea culpa.
Then... don't level a gimp character to 20. Level a full character to 20 and then use feat swap shards to switch in the dragonmarks.Leveling any character is easy. It's the stuff you do after that that is challenging. A craftingbot has little reason to do that stuff.
And yes, I would consider leveling a gimped character to 20 that I'll never play again much less fun then leveling a real character that has a future.
My point is that this thread seems to be whining about players dedicating a character to crafting, when... not doing so is kinda silly in the first place.Huh? Since when is this thread about crafting all three schools on the same character? Why would anyone even argue about that? I'm so confused...
The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<
First, that is expensive. Do you realize how expensive level 20 feat swaps are?
And second, it's still a character with no future. The feats need to remain to get the crafting bonuses, and as long as the feats remain, it's a character that is gimped compared to a real Artificer that doesn't take the feats.
And my issue isn't leveling a gimped character. Plenty of characters are underpowered while leveling them, but work well at cap. My issue is leveling a character with no future playing the primary focus of the game: questing and raiding.
No, it was kinda silly to dedicate a character to crafting in the first place.My point is that this thread seems to be whining about players dedicating a character to crafting, when... not doing so is kinda silly in the first place.
Crafting, as initially released, was entirely bound to character (outside a marginally useful exploit). If you wanted a Holy Silver EOB for your Barbarian, you had to level crafting on that specific character. Crafting was, in fact, initially quite useless on a "dedicated" crafter.
And, I still don't see what leveling all three schools on a single character has to do with anything. Why would anyone not do that, whether on a dedicated crafter, or on a primary melee?
Opinion - and both have been proven false, in this and every other thread on the subject.
I know English is not your first language, and that is cool. I am not nearly as good in my secondary languages as you. That said, it is clear you have no understanding of 'undisputable' - please look it up.
Actually RAW is a very valid argument, pretty sure there are a few religions based around that in fact. Regardless, the only 'fail' has been your lack of compelling arguments. In the absence of anything else there is no reason not to try and follow the rules; if there WERE a reason to not follow the rules then there would be something to debate - as you have been unable to produce a valid reason, the rules as written remain.
Yes, yet sadly not every sane person understands that crafting and haggle bots are not worse for the game. There are also tons of deviations that make the game worse.
Really? You are now so presumptuous that you can tell me how I like to play? Thank you! I never knew that all this time I was wasting doing something I enjoyed was really something I dislike. What a revelation! Thank the Sovereign Host - you have freed me from my previously very enjoyable pastime and have now shown me that actually it was quite boring. Quite seriously, all this time as a haggle bot roleplaying a shopkeeper I thought I was helping people holding the weapon shop open, buffing them and chatting with my clientele. I cannot wait to tell them that I can reroll as full ****** DPS!
Or we can let people play the way they enjoy playing and spend as much or as little on it as they want.
There is no reason Artificers should NOT be a crafting class. Yes, the class would only need minor tweaking if crafting was removed (a reversion to their proper spell progression perhaps) to be playable, but that would only make it a non-crafting class in function. If the Devs did NOT want a crafting class, there are plenty of other class options they could have explored even excluding Druids: Psions? Would have been my first choice because sometimes it does take a Kalashtar and there are two updates dedicated to the Quori & their invasion. But the Devs CHOOSE a crafting class to go with Cannith Crafting and as such it makes sense that they get some form of crafting bonus.
If there were incentives to create haggle & craft bots, then yes Turbine would be encouraging them; as there are no such incentives Turbine is not encouraging them. It is a choice, and that choice has a cost.
The question is difficult to answer simply because it is not germane and is premised upon an utterly flawed understanding of the issue. But if we ignore the evidence to the contrary, then it is good to encourage bots because it presents a choice.
So really once again you do not know what your argument is. Instead of being mad that Artificers get a crafting bonus, you are ****ed that non-casters get to craft. OK, fair enough I agree with you about that.
Choice - how great it is
Choice, but in actual fact you can swap out feats are you level increases (which it will continue to do so) and eventually even TR back out of the class too!
OH, so having a craftbot has a DIFFERENT cost to leveling crafting after all!
Opinion
You should dispute #1 since that is where their biggest flaws in thinking are.
That said, to address #2, having tried it on Lameia a max crafting Human Artificer is not gimped at all. The Marks of Making allow the 'craftbot' to recon his pet, party Warforged and using Construct Essence even himself - pretty much the same benefits a Halfling gets from his Dragonmarks of Healing. Even better, unlike the Halfling, the craftbot does not have to invest in additional Dragonmarks if he does not want to and can instead save them for an 'oh ****' moment.
With their 5 bonus feats the craftbot can easily ensure they also have all the required feats as well (casting + either range or melee DPS feats) and the craftbot still brings all the Artificer infusion/spell buffs. Just like a Bard hagglebot still brings all his songs & spells as well.
Sure, the craftbot could use those three feats for something else (3x toughness for example), but it is not as if they NEED those additional feats. Ultimately unlike a Hagglebot (SF: Haggle, Negotiator, etc) a Craftbot actually can make use of his feats.
But in any event, #2 is not the problem - #1 is where their thinking is flawed.
I'm thrilled that non-casters get to craft. What did I say to suggest otherwise? Because it certainly wasn't what you quoted.
Once again, you completely miss the point.
My point is that a precedent was set when Cannith crafting was first introduced: Cannith crafting is not PnP crafting. Therefore, the precedent was that bonuses to PnP crafting would not necessarily become bonuses to Cannith crafting.
Not all choices are good. A choice between a terrible option (wasting tons of rare bound gear), and bad option (wasting past effort leveling crafting), and another bad option (continuing with a crafter that will waste effort in the future) is just bad.Choice - how great it is
No, your level will not increase at any remotely significant rate unless you actively level yourself, which defeats the whole point of getting the bonuses in the first place.Choice, but in actual fact you can swap out feats are you level increases (which it will continue to do so) and eventually even TR back out of the class too!
Once you stop actively leveling, and just craft useful stuff, you'll quickly stop getting any XP from Shards, and get it only from deconstructions, which is such a tiny trickle it won't get you to higher levels in any reasonable amount of time.
Well, duh? Have I said there wasn't?OH, so having a craftbot has a DIFFERENT cost to leveling crafting after all!
It's a cost that reasonable people can consider "less" than leveling a non-craftingbot.
Again, well, duh? Of course it's an opinion. That's like calling gravity just a "theory".Opinion
There is nothing wrong with opinions. They're the whole point of discussion. Do you have a good reason why my opinion is not valid, or is unreasonable, or is founded in faulty logic?
No. Being told that a subjective opinion is fact is a typical power game response however.
Although not applicable to me, perhaps you are trying to delude others as you have yourself by simply repeating the same falsehoods again and again...
Facts? The fact that YOU (might) be better off starting over means that EVERYONE is better off starting over. That 'fact'? The fact that your currect crafting investment is only wasted if YOU CHOOSE to start over? That 'fact'? Or the fact that you had access to easier recipes and quick XP that Artificers will not. That actual fact?
Of course it is unreasonable. Sure it might make sense for you, and if we accept that you are not trolling then you believe it is, but that does not mean everybody does.
I can accept how you see them as 'changing the game'; I cannot accept how you can say that is punishing previous effort. If anything the people that did not previously craft (such as myself) are at a significant disadvantage compared to those that crafted previously. If anything non-crafters should be in up rage over the previous crafting nerfs. Indeed, ALL crafters should be - but you would rather whine about an addition to crafting that you are CHOOSING to take advantage of. Priorities...