Utterly absurd: better for cannith crafting to be on a gimp artificer?!

[dunklezhan]

Yes. You stay as a level 1 artificier until you have reached [craft level goal-20], then you level up and grab the feats to get the last 20 crafting levels for free.

Lol, i was clearly editing my post while people were pointing this out. Yes, I realise that - but if you really want to play that way with a brand new class, then you're more patient than me. I want to go play my artficer.

Edit: and again - if someone wants a crafting bot and is disciplined enough to play that way, I don't see why they shouldn't get the benefts. How you play is still not a problem for me.

[Aaxeyu]

Lol, i was clearly editing my post while people were pointing this out. Yes, I realise that - but if you really want to play that way with a brand new class, then you're more patient than me. I want to go play my artficer.

Why can't you make 2 artificiers?

[dkyle]

Or did I miss something again?

Yes, you did. That's not at all how they work. The bonus levels are always added on top of whatever level you have the XP for. So, even if you level a DMarked Arti to 20, and got the +20 CL bonus, you'd still be at 0 XP, and your leveling curve would increase as usual from there.

So, 0XP for level 21 (instead of 1010). 12XP for level 22, instead of 1141. All the way up to 52738 XP for level 125, instead of 75638.

Bonus CLs always stack on top of your "earned" CLs, and as such, always act as though you were gaining the highest levels for free.

Now, there is a slight wrinkle here. If you get the bonus CLs before leveling crafting, you'll need to level using higher level recipes, which tend to be worse XP per essence than lower level recipes. You're still better off than having no bonus CLs at all, but the optimal way to do it is to level crafting to cap - 20 first, then level up the crafting bot to get those last, extremely expensive levels. This way, you can level using low level recipes, then get the bonus to reach cap.

Lol, i was clearly editing my post while people were pointing this out. Yes, I realise that - but if you really want to play that way with a brand new class, then you're more patient than me. I want to go play my artficer.

I plan to make a craftingbot artificer, leave it at level 1, then level it up when my crafting level on him reaches 55, so I can get Greater banes quickly. He'll still be better off than my current crafter, going forward.

If I decide to play an artificer, for real, I'll just make another one. One that doesn't squander 3 feats. I have no interest in investing any more effort than I need to in a character with 3 feats that are basically worthless for questing.

[danotmano1998]

Yes. You stay as a level 1 artificier until you have reached [craft level goal-20], then you level up and grab the feats to get the last 20 crafting levels for free.

Wait a minute.. let's back up the logic train.

So when the crafting cap goes up in the future, then will you complain that Turbine has again screwed you and you have to remake?

The only way this can really be viewed as a huge waste is if you've done exactly what you've suggested. Craft for a zillion hours to get to just below max, then level up your Artificer.

Speaking of wastes, this looks like a big one to me. One that is your decision, not forced.

[dunklezhan]

Yes, you did. That's not at all how they work. The bonus levels are always added on top of whatever level you have the XP for. So, even if you level a DMarked Arti to 20, and got the +20 CL bonus, you'd still be at 0 XP, and your leveling curve would increase as usual from there.

So, 0XP for level 21 (instead of 1010). 12XP for level 22, instead of 1141. All the way up to 52738 XP for level 125, instead of 75638.

Bonus CLs always stack on top of your "earned" CLs, and as such, always act as though you were gaining the highest levels for free.

Now, there is a slight wrinkle here. If you get the bonus CLs before leveling crafting, you'll need to level using higher level recipes, which tend to be worse XP per essence than lower level recipes. You're still better off than having no bonus CLs at all, but the optimal way to do it is to level crafting to cap - 20 first, then level up the crafting bot to get those last, extremely expensive levels. This way, you can level using low level recipes, then get the bonus to reach cap.

Ah I see, that is a significant benefit for artificers.

And Aayexu, yes I can make two artificers if I want to do it that way. But there are character slots to consider, and there's also the question of whether I really want to put that level of effort and planning in, or just craft as I go.

And, now that i do see what a huge bonus this is, I still simply do not understand why this upsets you so much. I don't understand why people have sunk so much plat into the system while it was still in beta, I don't understand why people have put so much time in, instead of just crafting as they go and seeing what happens as the beta system is tweaked.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that anyone could have predicted what Turbine was going to do, I still am upset that they've actually made it possible to create a crafting bot when they said that wasn't part of the equation. I actually feel a bit betrayed... but not actually cheated. And I don't understand why anyone else does.

[dkyle]

Wait a minute.. let's back up the logic train.

So when the crafting cap goes up in the future, then will you complain that Turbine has again screwed you and you have to remake?

That method is just the optimal way to do it. Having a capped crafter with bonus CLs is not a waste when the crafting level cap is raised.

Having bonus CLs, and leveling up with them, is still better than being at the same effective CL the "normal" way, and leveling up from there. You still need much less XP to level than the character without bonus CLs.

Furthermore, the big issue with the current change is that a lot of existing crafters are not disposable crafting bots. In my, and many others', cases it's our primary melee, since shards were originally BtC. We're not going to TR them into crafting bots, or respec them to pick up the DMarks. But a crafting bot could be TR'd, if the player chose, when the cap is raised, to lose the bonus CLs, then level crafting to the new cap - 20, then level up again to get the bonuses back. I'm not sure I'd do that, as I'm not fond of leveling TRs, but that would be a much more viable option than TRing a fully geared up melee into a crafting bot.

[Schmoe]

This seems like a good place to link this: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...13#post4001713

Summary:

If you want to reach level 150 in Cannith Crafting, you are better off re-rolling if you haven't already reached level 75. If you are above level 75, you are better off keeping your current character.

If you want to reach level 100 in Cannith Crafting, you are better off re-rolling unless you have already reached level 61 or higher.

My personal opinion is that the artificer and dragonmark bonuses are reasonable, thematic, and not overpowered. In my opinion, "Beta" means "subject to change," and the upcoming changes were eminently predictable.

[Chai]

Somehow, the class based on crafting being the best at crafting and having some benefits other do not have is an issue? Thats just like saying I dont like the fact that the best class at fighting gets bonuses that make them better at fighting and thats not fair!!! /cry. You see how absurd that is? Good.

And of course, reading through this, people are being told their stance is irrelevant multiple times simply because they dont agree, and others opinion is just fact, simply because they say so. I have a pretty good idea on how to solve this however....

It involves people stopping worrying about how others do play or how they can play, and just play your game. The people who leveled their crafting in 2 days straight clicking for 1 XP per decon and at no cost are not being screwed by artificers having to do it the old fashioned way and gain 20 levels by being the class based on crafting.

[dkyle]

And, now that i do see what a huge bonus this is, I still simply do not understand why this upsets you so much. I don't understand why people have sunk so much plat into the system while it was still in beta, I don't understand why people have put so much time in, instead of just crafting as they go and seeing what happens as the beta system is tweaked.

Bottom line? Because I trusted the Devs. Even with the Beta tag, I trusted that earned XP would always mean something. Prices might go up or down, return rates and the XP curve might get tweaked, but I believed that participating, in good faith, would always be more useful in the future than not participating.

That turned out to be a misplaced trust. I would be better off, now, in every way, had I never leveled past 35, and instead saved the essences. Is it wise for a beta test to reward non-participation more than participation?

As for crafting as I go? I did. It's just that there's nothing worthwhile between mid-30s and mid-70s. I was on my way to 70s, but now there's no point continuing with my existing crafter. I should cut my loses, and start over when U11 comes out.

[NytCrawlr]

Wait a minute.. let's back up the logic train.

So when the crafting cap goes up in the future, then will you complain that Turbine has again screwed you and you have to remake?

The only way this can really be viewed as a huge waste is if you've done exactly what you've suggested. Craft for a zillion hours to get to just below max, then level up your Artificer.

Speaking of wastes, this looks like a big one to me. One that is your decision, not forced.

Yeah, pretty much what I have been trying to point out.

This is an end game scenario thing, one that is an exercise in futility as the crafting cap gets extended again and again as they have stated that they plan for no max level currently.

So in order to avoid the higher costs of the next cap, they will just TR back into another artificer, which costs TP or epic tokens, the latter being another grind while the former costs real money or time and grind depending on how you get the TP.

Or, they will just change the feats out, which makes them lose the top 10 levels and do the game all over again. Cool if people want to do that, but they should sell it as that and not the doom waste they have been selling it as.

Never mind when I said I wanted numbers, that included resources, not just XP gained by switching. I would like to see a full breakdown if I wasn't clear on that.

[dkyle]

Somehow, the class based on crafting being the best at crafting and having some benefits other do not have is an issue? Thats just like saying I dont like the fact that the best class at fighting gets bonuses that make them better at fighting and thats not fair!!! /cry. You see how absurd that is? Good.

I would indeed be annoyed if there were a clear "best class" at fighting, and building one to its optimal fighting configuration were as simple as leveling it to 20, and there were no real build choices to make, since every single possible bonus to fighting was readily available to it. That would make for a terrible game.

It involves people stopping worrying about how others do play or how they can play, and just play your game.

How can I stop when I was never worried about how others play in the first place?

The crux of the issue isn't how others play, it's how, unless I play stupidly and keep my existing crafter, a large amount of effort I put into him will be entirely wasted when I switch to a blatantly superior craftingbot Artificer.

It has nothing to do with what anyone else does with their own crafting.

[Jahmin]

That is not what we're saying.

We're saying we're now better off starting over with a better thing, which means wasting past effort. If artificers had some advantages, but a moderate amount of past effort rendered them irrelevent, it would be less of an issue. Say, if artificers got some amount of bonus XP, instead of bonus CLs. That way, it would be obvious whether starting over would be a better option, and the "right" decision would never change as more CLs were introduced.

Yes it is. Not in so many words perhaps, but you have been *****ing and moaning from the start DESPITE being shown that mathematically it will not benefit everyone. DESPITE having the chance to take advantage of the easy XP and cheaper recipes under the previous system. Whether YOU did or not is irrelevant - the possibility was there. For some people starting over will make sense, but it is NOT required and pretending it is is disingenuous.

Getting to a "certain point quicker" is being better at that thing. And it's not just quicker, it's hugely cheaper. Doing the same thing, except faster and cheaper, is better than doing it slower and more expensively. And DMarked Artifcers, being the fastest and cheapest available, are thus the "best".

I just don't understand how this is not blatantly obvious.

Because what you lay out is not a fair comparison and it ignores all the previous advantages you had access to. If I was to stoop to the same level, I could base my dislike on the system that the useful recipes now require special materials, purified essences and high value items - all things that current crafters could have ignored.

Getting somewhere first, does not mean you are better. And while starting over maybe the best case for you, it is certainly NOT the best case for everyone. Further, it also means that you have to level up a (gimp in your opinion) character to take advantage of it. Leveling a character is a cost that current crafters do not have. Different does not equate better.

Ultimately the term "force" clouds the issue. Noone can really "force" anyone to do anything, unless they simply overpower them physically. But in general, we always have choices. "Force" is simply a matter of making one choice clearly beneficial to the person you're "forcing" to do something. In this case, in my case, starting over with a crafting bot is obviously the more beneficial choice to me, going forward.

Actually physical coercion is generally the weakest form, but in any event you HAVE a choice. Whether you like it or not, use it or not is irrelevant: you DO have one.

I can't speak for others, but for anyone who cares about reaching the likely eventual cap of 200, starting over now might be preferable to continuing on, even if they're around 90ish now.

Given the conflicting information we have no idea what the crafting cap will be - I suspect this is partly due to the Devs not having any clue themselves, but if we take their initial statements at face value then 150 is what we get. As has been pointed out there is no benefit to you to have more than 100, so starting over at 90 would be a major waste.

The vast majority of magic items require that a spell be prepared and expended by the crafter. Tell me how a non-spellcaster does this?

I really think you need to go read up on PnP Artificers because your ignorance betrays you. Here is a hint: UMD is equally powerful in PnP

Oh, and since Cannith crafting is apparently so much like PnP crafting that we should have realized that bonuses to PnP crafting would become Cannith crafting bonuses, where are those crafting feats?

Completely separate argument, and one I made when crafting was first previewed. If you wish to advance this discussion I will of course support you. Of course, do note that those feats would also be available to Artificers.

I know exactly what my issue is. Mister_peace understood correctly. You apparently failed to understand. I believe I was quite clear.

No sadly you do not. If you think crafting requires a spellcaster you are not just wrong, you are super wrong. This point has been corrected for you before. Not adjusting your argument tells everyone that you are simply stirring up trouble for the sake of it. Basing your issue on something that does not exist means you have a non-issue. To quote you:

I just don't understand how this is not blatantly obvious.

Since you obviously DO NOT understand what the issue is, you CANNOT know exactly what your issue is. Or rather, I accept that you can construct whatever little reality you want, and in that little reality your issue can be whatever you want, but that does not make it a real issue in the real world. Sorry. Crafting does not require a spellcaster - so you really need to stop using that as the basis of your argument.

As for Cannith crafting? Well as explained repeatedly probably because in Eberron House Cannith are the master crafters. Or are you suggesting that they should have named it something else?

Shroud crafting isn't "true" crafting, but Cannith crafting is? Yeah, not seeing the distinction there. Cannith crafting gets more options, sure, but both are highly customizable ways to produce items from base ingredients.

I agree Cannith is not PnP crafting. That is not up for debate. But the Devs have said that Cannith is the 'real' (full) crafting system and even you concede that it has far more options than all the other 'crafting' systems in the game combined. You may not want to see it, but the distinction exists and was made numerous times prior to initial launch. I agree that it can be confusing, but clearly even without the official say so, the systems are distinct.

Cannith crafting is not PnP crafting. It really barely resembles it all.

Agreed, but it does resemble PnP far closer than any other crafting system in the game. If you wish to argue for true PnP crafting, I will back you 100%, but in the meantime Cannith crafting is what we were given in its place.

[dkyle]

Yeah, pretty much what I have been trying to point out.

This is an end game scenario thing, one that is an exercise in futility as the crafting cap gets extended again and again as they have stated that they plan for no max level currently.

Not at all.

Being level 150, including 20 bonus CLs, is strictly better than being level 150 with no bonus CLs. Leveling to the new cap is easier for the craftingbot, even without swapping out the bonuses first, because they're leveling 20 levels behind on the XP curve.

Temporarily losing the bonuses is a way to do it somewhat more efficiently, if the player chooses, but it's not necessary. And either way, the previously gained XP fully applies towards reaching the new cap. Unlike switching from a primary melee crafter to a craftingbot.

Never mind when I said I wanted numbers, that included resources, not just XP gained by switching. I would like to see a full breakdown if I wasn't clear on that.

More high level XP, in place of fewer low level XP, obviously implies more essences. I have shown that, in my case, starting over saves on XP. It therefore saves on Essences.

You're demanding a pointlessly complicated proof when a fully sufficient one has been supplied. Essence costs are far more difficult to calculate than amounts of XP, but fortunately, in this case, that task is completely unnecessary.

I have already demonstrated that, at least in my case, starting over saves on essences. If you believe there is fault in my argument of that point, point it out. But not having a "full breakdown" of all resources is not one.

[Jahmin]

Sigh... Again, just because it works in pnp doesn't mean it's a good idea to bring it to an MMO.
Dismissing the complaints as "whining" and saing that you don't even care about it is just ridicolous from your side.
That's not how a discussion works.

No one is arguing that everything MUST be as per PnP. This game sucked bad when we had AoO - thankfully they changed it. But when your entire argument is essentially a whine, calling you on it IS a discussion. What are the majority of against posts complaining about? For someone that instructs others to read the thread surly you know: they are complaining that their current crafting is "wasted". Where I am from we call a groundless complaint like that whining.

The advantage that the class is getting is making the game worse. That's why there are genuine complaints against it.
The class does not have to have these bonuses. It will still be a complete class.

There is no proof that Artificiers having crafting is making the game worse. That is simply not supported by the evidence. It certainly COULD happen, but it definitely has NOT happened.

Would I consider playing an Artificer? As a buffer it is a possibility, but I like Bards. Would removing the crafting bonus affect my decision? No. So yes, it is true that Artificers do not NEED to have their crafting bonus, but then the argument could certainly be made that Sorc's do not NEED their faster cast time either. And before you try and counter, remember that at least Artificers have a basis for a crafting bonus whereas Sorcs have no such basis for faster casting. Ultimately the argument is not for those in favour of the bonus to prove why it is justified - the onus is on you to prove why the class should NOT get as much of its PnP abilities and flavour as possible.

Nothing good will come from class based bonuses to crafting.

COMPLETELY and utter FUD. Not a shred of evidence. I could easily counter with the claim that nothing bad will come from class based bonuses to crafting! Ha, beat that! Not exactly what you expect from someone who apparently “knows how a discussion works” is it

It has a completely different kind of effect.

Exactly: A non-combat ability that has no effect in questing is significantly less of an impact than a combat ability.

Do you think it's a good thing to encourage the making of crafting bots that are never actually played, just used for crafting?

It is neither good nor bad, and it is neither encouraged nor discourage; indeed trying to label it as such shows a lack of understanding. It is a CHOICE. People have Hagglebots, people CURRENTLY have Craftbots - this does not change this dynamic. Why should I concern myself with what characters other people create? I do not, why should you? I suppose people having to buy additional character slots is good in the sense that money spent on the game is better than money spent elsewhere, but other than that?

In your PnP ventures, did you ever hear "Sure, I can craft that, just let me get my crafting bot"?

Not those words exactly, but certainly words to that effect yes. I have also heard pass that to the Bard to sell, or even less IC 'Who has the highest haggle?' Haggle & Crafting have been around in PnP since those were introduced as trainable skills - regardless of what the actual characters were called (cohort, hirelings, companions, followers, etc) that is the function they performed.

[Thalmor]

This seems like a good place to link this: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...13#post4001713

Summary:

If you want to reach level 150 in Cannith Crafting, you are better off re-rolling if you haven't already reached level 75. If you are above level 75, you are better off keeping your current character.

If you want to reach level 100 in Cannith Crafting, you are better off re-rolling unless you have already reached level 61 or higher.

My personal opinion is that the artificer and dragonmark bonuses are reasonable, thematic, and not overpowered. In my opinion, "Beta" means "subject to change," and the upcoming changes were eminently predictable.

+1 to you sir for providing a much need prespective. One additional thing to mention is weather someone is a VIP or Preminum player, into weather you should TR into an Artificer.

I am a Preminum player and I would have to buy The Artificer before TRing a Caped ( Of which I don't have one atm) toon into an Artificer. So simply put this isn't going to happen anytime in the near future.

Crafting for me is about making items for my toons, to make them more effective as I level them.

I have played several other MMO, and have always found that crafting has always tended to favour those who have excessive ( More) money and time to spend on the game than I do ( Hence part of the reason I'm Premium and not VIP). So I find Canith Crafting to be move of a leveling agent for those of us who have to be more stingy with our time and money.

I have spent no real money or ingame Plat on Canith crafting and I have 3 character on different servers with about 30 levels in each school for Canith Crafting.

Ifhave spent real money or ingame Plat on a system that is still in Beta that was your choice, and if you chose to TR your character into a Aftificer and level him/her to cap to gain the bonuses to crafting that again is your choice.
Simply put you have a varity of choices for crafting in this game. As this game keeps going forward there will continue to be changes.

This game is my favorite form of entertainment and relaxiation atm, that however doesn't mean it perfect ( Kohpesh's crit multiplyer annoys me to no end, but I live with it). Aftificers are suppose to be crafters, so they are goingt o get a bonus to crafting.

My advise to all of you is live with it.

[Chai]

The crux of the issue isn't how others play, it's how, unless I play stupidly and keep my existing crafter, a large amount of effort I put into him will be entirely wasted when I switch to a blatantly superior craftingbot Artificer.

It has nothing to do with what anyone else does with their own crafting.

Ahhh, but a good portion of the griping on this issue is literally based on worrying about how others play, because the claim that those who already leveled crafting are being screwed, is saying that an advantage is being given to those who havent leveled crafting yet. This is the same type of overexageration we see in many threads where one thing is deemed "the best" and everything else is being labeled "useless". Theres too much banter about issues being black and white, and not enough realistic discussion about how much better or worse something really is. What was ZOMG melee are now useless yesterday is now ZOMG my previous crafting toon is now useless today, along with ZOMG everyone who leveled crafting before this update is screwed.

The overexageration is simply not true. No one is screwed because they leveled crafting and now have the best boss beaters while those who didnt are still using mediocre ones. The people who leveled using the 1 XP / decon method at no cost arent screwed, unless you factor in the cost of treating carpal tunnel syndrome into it.

[Full_Bleed]

Worse still, the XP/Essence (and moreso, the XP/Plat) massively dives as you craft at higher levels. Earning 1000 XP at low levels costs about 300-400 essences. When you are in the 80s-90s getting 1000 XP costs nearer 2000 essences PLUS (sometimes) expensive other items.

Those upper levels are *really* to be avoided.

This is where the ignorance of low level crafters really shines. Until you've tried leveling in the 75-100, and 100-115 range (two very different experiences) you don't understand the actual COST of doing so. While someone can show the XP variance and then come up with a "cutoff" for where a crafter should start-over on an Artificer, they are still missing the most important variable--the actual COST in raw ingredients for the crafting recipes needed to achieve the higher level experience. That's much harder to quantify and would surely push the "cutoff" levels even lower.

And given that we've been told that 150 is not the ceiling, that Cost Variable will only continue to grow as the ceiling grows. If 150-175 costs as much as it cost to get to 150 (in resources acquired, plat, essences, etc) even though the XP might only be equal to levels 110-140, you have to again adjust what the cutoff would be to start over.

There comes a point, where even a level 125 crafter now, might wish they had just started over because at some point the extra 20 levels, be it 180-200 or 205-225, or 230-250 will far exceed what it's cost them to get to 125 (no matter how considerable that may seem right now)... and crafting further into the existing toon might just be digging a deeper hole they wish they'd climbed out of earlier.

Also, I want to point out that people (myself included) keep talking about getting 20 from cap with the Artificer. This is not the way crafters do it. Regular crafters stop 10 from cap once they've achieved a 50% shot at everything. The most efficient Artificers will stop 30 from cap for the same 50% shot. The value of that top end buffer will only increase as the crafting cap increases. Whatever we think the value of those top 30 levels are now, it's likely to be much higher as the cap increases.

In lieu of that, even though I've got a 107/115/111 crafting at my disposal, I am trying to decide whether to A) just give up crafting or B) start over. My aversion to starting over, even if that's the most fiscally responsible thing to do, is really the driving factor towards choosing A.

I played the game fine without crafting before, so I guess I can just play without it again. Ultimately, it's my loss for not starting over. And Turbine's loss for losing someone who actually really enjoyed their system (and bought a number of success hammers and exp pots along the way.)

[Jahmin]

Because of everything else it can do. Again, it does not have to have bonuses to crafting. It shouldn't have such bonuses unless it's a goodi dea from gameplay perspective, and it as it turns out it's a horrible idea from a gameplay perspective.

Artificer does not HAVE to have its crafting bonuses, but until you can actually show damages, there is simply no reason for them NOT to have their bonus. Casting FUD about like it was your personal pet is not going to change that fact.

It shouldn't be represented at all, because if it is the game becomes worse than if it isn't. That makes perfect sense.

None of your 'arguments' make any sense: the game is NOT worse off because of them, so anything flowing from that flawed view is WRONG.

Do you think they should have bonuses to shroud or epic crafting aswell?

Frankly yes, they probably should - but as those systems exist already I do not think any changes would be worth the development time... especially since Epic (and its crafting component) is under a review.

I personally don't care about the lore, and lore should never go before gameplay. That is extremely bad game design.

Opinion
(especially since the lore in this case is ENHANCING the game)

Fine, call them whatever you want, just remove the bonus to crafting. The game will be better if the bonuses doesn't exist, so excuse me for thinking of the best interest of the game.

Again, opinion
(and frankly the only thing you are thinking in the best interest of is yourself)

This post is apparently a neg rep magnet.

Inflammatory? Yes
Derogatory? Yes
Disruptive? Yes
Trolling? Possibly
Violation? Probably not
Pretty much the definition of Disapprove - not that Rep or the Rep system actually means anything

[dkyle]

Yes it is. Not in so many words perhaps, but you have been *****ing and moaning from the start DESPITE being shown that mathematically it will not benefit everyone

I've not been talking about "everyone". Of course it won't benefit everyone to start over.

I'm currently around 55 CL. Mathematically, I know that starting over will benefit me. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one in this situation.

DESPITE having the chance to take advantage of the easy XP

XP was only "easy" to get for a few hours. Before that, there was an insane low-essence-cost method, but it was far from "easy". It was insanely time consuming.

and cheaper recipes under the previous system. Whether YOU did or not is irrelevant - the possibility was there. For some people starting over will make sense, but it is NOT required and pretending it is is disingenuous.

Because what you lay out is not a fair comparison and it ignores all the previous advantages you had access to. If I was to stoop to the same level, I could base my dislike on the system that the useful recipes now require special materials, purified essences and high value items - all things that current crafters could have ignored.

I didn't reach levels where those added costs were relevant. Is your answer "you deserve to have your effort wasted for not leveling up faster"? Should I have chosen to either dedicate myself to crafting, or not bothered at all? Was playing at my own pace the problem?

Getting somewhere first, does not mean you are better. And while starting over maybe the best case for you, it is certainly NOT the best case for everyone.

Again, I have not claimed to speak for everyone.

As has been pointed out there is no benefit to you to have more than 100, so starting over at 90 would be a major waste.

OK, well, I don't have 90. If I did, I wouldn't be starting over.

I really think you need to go read up on PnP Artificers because your ignorance betrays you. Here is a hint: UMD is equally powerful in PnP

Your lack of understanding betrays you. This is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making.

I was talking about Cannith crafting, as introduced in DDO, well before Artificers were on the horizon.

If you're not an Artificer, you need to be a spellcaster. Fighters/Barbs/etc. cannot use UMD to craft, in PnP. Yet they are entirely equal to Wizards in crafting in DDO. That was the point I was making.

Completely separate argument, and one I made when crafting was first previewed. If you wish to advance this discussion I will of course support you. Of course, do note that those feats would also be available to Artificers.

Not at all a separate issue. It was evidence that Cannith crafting would be very different from PnP crafting. Evidence that Artificers would not have any particular reason to get bonuses to Cannith crafting, just because of bonuses to PnP crafting.

In PnP build was intimately tied to crafting. In DDO, the Devs chose to make build completely irrelevant to crafting. That was evidence that Cannith crafting would not simply mimic PnP crafting.

No sadly you do not. If you think crafting requires a spellcaster you are not just wrong, you are super wrong.

Seriously? Are we now arguing that I'm wrong because Artificers aren't "technically" spellcasters? You're just being pedantic here.

Show me how a Fighter crafts in PnP. That is the relevant point. Not how a class that isn't even in DDO yet can craft in PnP.

As for Cannith crafting? Well as explained repeatedly probably because in Eberron House Cannith are the master crafters. Or are you suggesting that they should have named it something else?

No. The name is fine.

The game mechanics, of giving certain builds benefit to crafting, are what should be something else. A name should never determine game mechanics.

Also, last I checked, races are Dragonmarked, not classes. You're lore justification might apply to the actual Dragonmarks, but not the class.

[dkyle]

Ahhh, but a good portion of the griping on this issue is literally based on worrying about how others play, because the claim that those who already leveled crafting are being screwed, is saying that an advantage is being given to those who havent leveled crafting yet.

I agree that that is a faulty argument, and I have never intentionally expressed anything like that. Doesn't say anything about the arguments I, and others, have actually been presenting.

No one is screwed because they leveled crafting and now have the best boss beaters while those who didnt are still using mediocre ones. The people who leveled using the 1 XP / decon method at no cost arent screwed, unless you factor in the cost of treating carpal tunnel syndrome into it.

Yep. Those uber elites that leveled up really high and got cheap Greater Banes aren't screwed. They have little reason to start over. Lucky them.

Players like me that level'd slow and steady, in the hopes of reaching those higher levels eventually, are the ones that got screwed. We wasted effort on a fools errand. Had I stopped at Holy Banes, and saved my essences, I'd be better off today.