Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Totensonntag]

after this hits 100 pages and 10,000 more views, maybe we'll see bosses get anti leap of faith, abundant step, and wind dance spell/ability and the wings will go back to the way they were.

This would be a great change I could fully understand. A shame it won't happen.

And in my opinion adding a loooooong cooldown timer on SP pots would make 100 times more sense than the wings nerf does.

To those of you who think this thread is in vain...for Update 10 there was a planned change to the crafting system that would use dreamspitters and chattering rings for shards in the cannith crafting. After tons of people spoke against this change, Turbine stopped the update and changed it. The same should happen here.

I just have the feeling that in this case they won't listen to reason anymore. But I hope you are right.

[pHo3nix]

And in my opinion adding a loooooong cooldown timer on SP pots would make 100 times more sense than the wings nerf does.

This. The problem with casters power are SP pots, cause you are basically immortal and can continue damaging mobs non-stop as long as your sp are infinite. Removing ( or at least putting a longer CD on them) makes a lot more sense than nerfing wings. How many pots do they use to complete the new raid on epic? Do devs really think on live people are going to chug 100+ pots each time they run the raid?

But sp pots mean $$ (not mines cause i've never bought them on the DDO store and i never will) so it's unlikely they are going to nerf them.

[Flugzeug]

Heh. You think the DEVs will change their snap, spur of the moment decision? That's some serious optimism.

I do. For 2 reasons.

1.) I saw in mid-July when their change that required the use of raid loot as ingredients for shards in the Cannith crafting system caused lots of people to post in the forums. Due to feedback from the community (a large amount of feedback) it was stopped, changed, and implemented differently. In my opinion, the final change was a good one...one that I like, and can live with. It was here in the lamannia forums, and if you look back at July you'll probably see those threads.

Also, someone mentioned the Crystal Cove items weren't capable of being reset/cleaned with 3 tokens to have their augment crystals removed. A Dev replied that this would be changed as this was not known and not intended. So for update 11, the cove items have cleaning recipes thanks to someone mentioning it, a Dev responding, and the Turbine team putting it on their agenda.

2.) The wings change has already been changed due to feedback over the past week, and it was changed based on feedback in this thread and other threads. If we continue to let Turbine know we want it different than the current change, odds are they will make a 3rd and final change. The current change is nicer than what it was a week ago, but it still doesn't solve the issues of it being overpowered and limits it in ways that are frustrating.

[Flugzeug]

On another note, I see we have a double bonus points weekend. Well, ever since the beginning of July when I bought more bank slots for my crafting toon I've been waiting for a double bonus point promotion to buy points. I've been low on points since mid-July and I've stopped buying things out of the store since I knew sooner or later they'd have another promotion. I figured Labor Day or Halloween. I was ok with waiting til Labor Day or Halloween. Anyway, now that we have this favored soul wing nerf, it may be ironic but I don't think I'm going to buy points in the DDO store even with the double bonus points... been waiting about 6 weeks, I guess I'll wait 6 more and see if I'm still playing the game then. No need to have lots of points if I'm not playing much.

I can guarantee if they change the leap of faith to no charges, 5sp or 10sp, but can't use it when harried, chained, or against certain raid bosses: I would buy the 6900 point bundle in a heartbeat. Maybe even 2 of them for 13800 points. I know artificer will cost points, and it looks like a fun class for me to TR my sorc into. I heard we will be able to buy 6th inventory tab and I'd probably do that on all 9 of my characters...plus buy 2 extra bank tabs for my artificer. Yet, I have a hard time getting past this change to leap of faith that doesn't sit well with me...the reasoning or implementation. So odds are I'll be skipping this points promotion. Heh, I'd even give Turbine my account number so they could watch as I buy 13,800 pts should they switch the nerf to as I described. They can surely see in my account history that I buy at least one 6900 pts bundle every time they have the promotion. This will be the first promotion since I started playing the game that I will skip. Oh well.

[blkcat1028]

I'm not really effected by the changes to LoF, and I do understand why this change is causing so much upset.

However, take a look at this thread and you may see why there is the perception that the Fvs is op.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=326458

[budalic]

I'm not really effected by the changes to LoF, and I do understand why this change is causing so much upset.

However, take a look at this thread and you may see why there is the perception that the Fvs is op.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=326458

Didn't Ooze/Healings solo TOD without spending any pots? Your example is kinda... tame compared to that.

[blkcat1028]

Didn't Ooze/Healings solo TOD without spending any pots? Your example is kinda... lame compared to that.

Not my example. It's just kind of counter productive to claim in one thread that it isn't op and have another player post something like that.

Like I said it doesn't effect me one way or the other. I just thought it interesting.


edit: I'm not familiar with Ooze/healings, so I have no idea what you mean

[budalic]

edit: I'm not familiar with Ooze/healings, so I have no idea what you mean

Oh, it's just a name of player - his main is Oozesniffer*, and his FvS character is named Healings.

*I think he doesn't play on Ooze much nowadays, though.

[blkcat1028]

Oh, it's just a name of player - his main is Oozesniffer*, and his FvS character is named Healings.

*I think he doesn't play on Ooze much nowadays, though.

Oh, thanks. He solo'd Tod on his Fvs? That is impressive.

[Totensonntag]

take a look at this thread and you may see why there is the perception that the Fvs is op.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=326458

First of all Big Top isn't exactly the hardest of all the epics. And while I myself can't i know others who are capable of soloing it on their WF sorcs.
And Nayamashii did it not only on his FvS life but on his Wiz life too as he has proven in that very same thread.

If FvS is overpowered then all casters with self-healing abilities are.

Most important: I didn't see the author claiming he was able to solo Epic Big Top because of spamming wings.
In fact I don't read a word about wings there. So where is the evidence he even used them? How is this important for the wings discussion?

[blkcat1028]

First of all Big Top isn't exactly the hardest of all the epics. And while I myself can't i know others who are capable of soloing it on their WF sorcs.
And Nayamashii did it not only on his FvS life but on his Wiz life too as he has proven in that very same thread.

If FvS is overpowered then all casters with self-healing abilities are.

Most important: I didn't see the author claiming he was able to solo Epic Big Top because of spamming wings.
In fact I don't read a word about wings there. So where is the evidence he even used them? How is this important for the wings discussion?

It's important because it contributes to the perception that the Fvs is op and that perception is what has led to these changes.

[budalic]

It's important because it contributes to the perception that the Fvs is op and that perception is what has led to these changes.

It isn't really the percepton - FvS is one of the top classes in game; and in opinion of many players it is the best (actually, all players whose opinion I value think FvS is best).

[gloopygloop]

It's important because it contributes to the perception that the Fvs is op and that perception is what has led to these changes.

I do agree with this post.

FvS wings weren't clipped because they actually cause any problems in the game. They were clipped because of a perception that FvS are an outstanding class and because of hurt feelings on the developers' side that we were completing quests the "wrong" way (i.e. we should always just gather around a boss with Autoattack on while a Cleric and FvS spam Mass Heal/Mass Cure at us).

[Yagi]

Yep, really. Next step: use fractions and multiplication.

A 1/6th savings in time means that I save half an hour in a 3-hour gaming session. More importantly, it saves me half an hour of something I don't think is inherently fun: walking a virtual character around. I want to shave that boring transit time down to the minimum, so that I can spend more time enjoying the awesomely fun combat system of DDO.

Yes I am aware of basic math functions, thanks. What I was not aware of was that you can get everywhere you want to go in game at the exact same rate of speed with no changes in course that slow you down regardless of wings.

Thanks for clearing that up. How do I enable noclip btw? I too want uniformly consistant travel times.

[protokon]

I had to skim over the last few pages due to all the flaming/trolling going on, surprised cordovan hasn't cleaned up this thread yet. Try and keep in mind guys to not flame eachother (don't confuse that with debating), all your doing is burying the useful feedback.

So here's my basic summary from what I've seen:

-The devs believe unlimited wing spamming allows you to kite bosses in a way that breaks the game. no amount of debating or argueing is going to change there mind on this point.

-The devs are not willing to budge on disabling wings with a chain-like effect. They have already clearly stated this several times, the intention is to be an "oh-S**t" button for those situations, not for kiting. I can come around to accept this, I still don't see a rational reason to increase the SP cost other than to reinforce the fact that they are merely an "escape"-like emergency button, not an ability to enhance the class. Honestly I think the sp increase is too much, it's already balanced enough with the recharge timer.

-Players like wings for the utility and usefulness to get around quicker. The biggest benefit here is going to be navigating a few large explorer areas. A possible solution is to replace wings with an alternate method of quicker movement while in explorer instances. I haven't come up with any suggestions on this front that I can honestly suggest as a solution, but to name a few:
-mounts. I hate them, it's an idea pulled from other MMO's and we don't really need them to complicate things, however they might be implemented in a way that they are only usable in explorer areas. Arguably the explorer areas are not big enough to utilize these anyways - terrible idea, but throwing it on the pile anyways.
-pendant of time. Allow us to use this in explorer areas. I kind of like this one, the main problem being it makes it too easy to outrun mobs - perhaps dungeon alert and harried effect will counter that anyways if you pull too many mobs.
-give us a new item that boosts movement speed. Possibly a clicky that gives us double movement speed until we are hit by something. It would work similarly to the pendant of time only would be limited by combat.
-give us a favor-unlocked buff. a 30-minute haste from a favor unlock would be swell, even though I know that's not going to happen lol. something that gives 30% striding for an extended period of time would be nice, possibly a little higher such as 35-40%.
Truthfully, there are only a few zones in which you really want to be able to cover more ground quickly - Gianthold, Orchard, Vale, Dessert. I suppose you could include the subterrane area in that one too, although any increase to movement would be offset by all the mobs between you and the raids anyways (and vod is not a far run at all).

Also, you can argue that the dessert, gianthold and orchard are all below level that a favored soul would obtain wings anyways - but I am proposing a change to help everyone, not just favored souls, travel a bit quicker.

Honestly, if the devs came up with some kind of solution to make traveling a bit easier overall in the larger explorer areas, I'd be more than willing to get over the wings.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[dragon2fire]

On another note, I see we have a double bonus points weekend. Well, ever since the beginning of July when I bought more bank slots for my crafting toon I've been waiting for a double bonus point promotion to buy points. I've been low on points since mid-July and I've stopped buying things out of the store since I knew sooner or later they'd have another promotion. I figured Labor Day or Halloween. I was ok with waiting til Labor Day or Halloween. Anyway, now that we have this favored soul wing nerf, it may be ironic but I don't think I'm going to buy points in the DDO store even with the double bonus points... been waiting about 6 weeks, I guess I'll wait 6 more and see if I'm still playing the game then. No need to have lots of points if I'm not playing much.

I can guarantee if they change the leap of faith to no charges, 5sp or 10sp, but can't use it when harried, chained, or against certain raid bosses: I would buy the 6900 point bundle in a heartbeat. Maybe even 2 of them for 13800 points. I know artificer will cost points, and it looks like a fun class for me to TR my sorc into. I heard we will be able to buy 6th inventory tab and I'd probably do that on all 9 of my characters...plus buy 2 extra bank tabs for my artificer. Yet, I have a hard time getting past this change to leap of faith that doesn't sit well with me...the reasoning or implementation. So odds are I'll be skipping this points promotion. Heh, I'd even give Turbine my account number so they could watch as I buy 13,800 pts should they switch the nerf to as I described. They can surely see in my account history that I buy at least one 6900 pts bundle every time they have the promotion. This will be the first promotion since I started playing the game that I will skip. Oh well.

This.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

-The devs believe unlimited wing spamming allows you to kite bosses in a way that breaks the game. no amount of debating or argueing is going to change there mind on this point.

-The devs are not willing to budge on disabling wings with a chain-like effect. They have already clearly stated this several times, the intention is to be an "oh-S**t" button for those situations, not for kiting.

Yeah I agree with how you see it too. The devs want wings to remain an option when chained. That's why I made a proposal that would have allowed for this to remain an option, yet not otherwise nerf wings, but either nobody read it or nobody liked it because it never got any responses. What I think they should have decided to do is keep wings exactly as they are on live right now, except for one change: if you get chained, the cooldown on your wings pauses until the chains disappear. It would allow one "Oh S**t" use after getting chained, yet still prevent unlimited wing kiting of any boss that uses chains. No need for any larger scale nerfing, problem solved.

I can come around to accept this, I still don't see a rational reason to increase the SP cost other than to reinforce the fact that they are merely an "escape"-like emergency button, not an ability to enhance the class. Honestly I think the sp increase is too much, it's already balanced enough with the recharge timer.

I'm completely with you on this too. There is no explanation for doubling the SP cost that isn't already completely covered by the charges change.

-Players like wings for the utility and usefulness to get around quicker. The biggest benefit here is going to be navigating a few large explorer areas. A possible solution is to replace wings with an alternate method of quicker movement while in explorer instances. I haven't come up with any suggestions on this front that I can honestly suggest as a solution, but to name a few:
...

Yeah, could be useful. I can't see mounts being worth anyone's hassle, but some means of moving faster across long distances to DQ1 and OOB would be welcome. Maybe just add a teleporter NPC akin to the one in Gianthold. That would probably be simplest, without requiring the implementation of any brand new systems/equipment/buffs.

[Quetzacoala]

I am new to the forums, and have only capped one character to date-the reason I am responding to this post is the fact that that capped toon happens to be a favored soul.

I really enjoy the wings ability on my favored soul, and think it is a fun and awesome ability. However, I just do not see how this ability breaks the game. I have never been in a run in which a favored soul has spammed wings and used it to a massive advantage, one which would merit a change. It just dosent... it is a fun ability which is a key ability of the favored soul class, and one of the things I like best about the class. However, I do not think it is overpowered at all... if anything, it is just right. The game is about having fun, first and foremost, and instead of nerfing the things which actually DO deal damage, you are talking about nerfing things which only HELP deal damage, and in the process damaging one of the best abilities.

That is just my 2 cents

[~sumptingwong]

Why do people complain so much, Why do people want nerfs???

Are you saying you do not like it when a Favored soul solos a quest for you in less time it would take to for melees to do it while instead of the Favored soul blade barriering they heal the melee? Also not all Favored Souls even use Blade Barrier and would keep the party healed. When people want nerfs then they should relize to themselves that it will just make things hard on YOURSELVES. That is right that you may seem more awesome because your class didn't get nerfed, but now Favored souls can not go do a elite sins of attrition favor run as easily, and let 5 others pop in at the end fight for the favor. Or doing a new invasion and then putting up a lfm for the 3 end chests.

Quit wining and go play the game, if something seems OP do not complain because Turbine will notice it eventually (actually probably not because... hey it's Turbine).

[~sumptingwong]

I am new to the forums, and have only capped one character to date-the reason I am responding to this post is the fact that that capped toon happens to be a favored soul.

I really enjoy the wings ability on my favored soul, and think it is a fun and awesome ability. However, I just do not see how this ability breaks the game. I have never been in a run in which a favored soul has spammed wings and used it to a massive advantage, one which would merit a change. It just dosent... it is a fun ability which is a key ability of the favored soul class, and one of the things I like best about the class. However, I do not think it is overpowered at all... if anything, it is just right. The game is about having fun, first and foremost, and instead of nerfing the things which actually DO deal damage, you are talking about nerfing things which only HELP deal damage, and in the process damaging one of the best abilities.

That is just my 2 cents

It doesn't help deal damage but it allows for basically perfectly kiting LARGE amounts of mobs even with Dungeon Alert, which saves alot of sp... which the extra sp could be used for damage. I personally HATE the nerf and it is not OP at all because in the past there wasn't even Dungeon Alert. If you Nerf the wings then you should also nerf THE HECK LOAD out of Dungeon Alert!