Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Rodasch]

26 seconds? Really?

Some people can do a LOT in 26 seconds, but their wives probably don't consider that time as well spent as they do.

[BlargneyTheSecond]

26 seconds? Really?

Yep, really. Next step: use fractions and multiplication.

A 1/6th savings in time means that I save half an hour in a 3-hour gaming session. More importantly, it saves me half an hour of something I don't think is inherently fun: walking a virtual character around. I want to shave that boring transit time down to the minimum, so that I can spend more time enjoying the awesomely fun combat system of DDO.

[voodoogroves]

Some people can do a LOT in 26 seconds, but their wives probably don't consider that time as well spent as they do.

What about *MY* needs?


i'm so sensitive


;-)

[kitsune_ko]

Dammit, I was certain you were reasonable, but now I think you're way too much wing raging.

So, we have PRE (only 2-tier PRE even) that:

• Effectively offers +2 DC on all spells, not only to you, but to your team members nearby too. Main draw of wizard PREs? +2 DC in one school. At tier 3.
• Offers +10% to +50% damage with light spells on bosses. Now, I saw 5-stacks of condemnation often prior to u11 - and now it even lasts longer. Awesome ability - also, nerf to damage bonus was justified, IMO. Even with only +50 at max is still very powerful.
• Additionally, offers +30% damage to blade barriers; which makes your barriers 2-nd best in game when arties get released.
• Gives you additional source of small light damage that automatically shoots your target.

It's, hands down, best caster PRE in game.

And you get 10 points of elemental resist, stacking, on top of it; wings, that are still good; some weapon bonuses; Sovereign host capstone, very good, if paired with some heal amp; DR 10/something. Spell versality? It doesn't matter at all with divine caster currently. Spell points don't matter too, IMO, but you do have a bit more of them too.

EDIT: Wing nerf sucks, I understand, but don't make silly arguments, please.

It is not a silly arguement becasue not every FvS plays in a DPS role.

My FvS is a straight healer. The only damage/attack spell I have is BB, everything else is healing and buffs.

and even my BB does not see a lot of use overall; I try to keep as much SP for buffs and healing as I can. If I am casting a lot of BB in a quest/raid its usually because a "use or lose" shrine is right around the corner.

I did try DV, but when healing, and expecially at the boss fights; I find that trying to keep a DV going while keeping everyone healed was adding an extra level of difficulty and a little bit of delay between heals. And people do tend to complain so very much when you let them die I find

Angel of Vengances aura draws all mob aggro to me automatically, unless/until another party member does enough damage to draw the aggro away. Thats not really a good thing for the healer to be the biggest aggro magnet in the party.

The little flashlight/Laser orb is a nice perk I admit, but it does very little damage. I usually have it running more for the illumination then for the damage it does.

There are a lot of beni]efits to the Angel of Vengance line; but it is mostly DPS oriented. Which I do not play my FvS as DPS. And really the only reason I have the line is for the melees that want it cast on themselves for the benefits in boss fights.

...and the laser spewing flashlight ball is very cool, I will give the Devs that

[gloopygloop]

I did try DV, but when healing, and expecially at the boss fights; I find that trying to keep a DV going while keeping everyone healed was adding an extra level of difficulty and a little bit of delay between heals. And people do tend to complain so very much when you let them die I find

The secret is to stand in the middle of the melee group and target the boss so that the mass cures/heals are centered on yourself and you don't have to change targets to cast your DV.

Angel of Vengances aura draws all mob aggro to me automatically, unless/until another party member does enough damage to draw the aggro away. Thats not really a good thing for the healer to be the biggest aggro magnet in the party.

I love it. Having the initial aggro clump up on the character that can handle it the best makes me a very happy FvS.

The little flashlight/Laser orb is a nice perk I admit, but it does very little damage. I usually have it running more for the illumination then for the damage it does.

I love my flashlight, but I agree that it's much more useful for the extra light and the extra aggro it provides than for any damage it happens to do.

[smatt]

since there are 3 threads about the leap of faith, I will post my opinion in all 3. but seriously, it would look more impressive and convey a stronger message to turbine if we had one 1,000 post 50,000 views thread, than several smaller ones. then again, I don't work for Turbine so maybe multiple threads is better. I don't know.

Too bad 10 or so people acount for 95% fo the posts and views

Here's my opinion:

Turbine has impressed me with their programming ability to change the leap of faith to an ability that acts differently in town than it does in dungeons.

so...

it makes the nerf that should be done, easy...as I now know they have the capability to do this.

Wings go back to being chargeless 5sp or 10sp per use. When harried or chained, they do not work at all.

Every major raid boss had a dream that the Truthful One gave to them...he taught them how to create high gravity around their being. So, all major raid bosses now throw out a high gravity spell that prevents all leaps of faith, abundant steps, and wind dances while in their proximity.

No more wing kill-kiting bosses (I still will give money to someone who can tell me where this happens besides demon queen)

but I still get to use the wings as an ADHD OCD gamer that loves speed. When I have to run 175 demon queens to get just one epic chaos blade, I don't look forward to the next 175 DQs, those wings really do make a difference in my mind...even if they aren't much of an advantage in reality.

This is the perfect nerf. Why do anything else?

I won't stop spewing propaganda in my groups that I run each day on the live server. For every 12 people in a raid group that I tell them about the nerf that's planned, many times no one in the group knows but sometimes 1 person in 12 will know about the upcoming nerf. After 3 days of doing this, that average is about 3 per group of 12. Out of hundreds of people that really dislike the change, only 2 people have said they don't mind. So, I will keep telling people on the live servers and after enough people flood lamannia maybe we can get the perfect nerf. We won't see every favored soul quit, but I think it's safe to say at least 1 in 10 will TR to different class or quit the game. Seems like a high price for not doing the perfect nerf.

Cool... Maybe 1 in 500 that say they will quit the game will, most that say they will TR won't....

[budalic]

There are a lot of beni]efits to the Angel of Vengance line; but it is mostly DPS oriented. Which I do not play my FvS as DPS. And really the only reason I have the line is for the melees that want it cast on themselves for the benefits in boss fights.

...and the laser spewing flashlight ball is very cool, I will give the Devs that

Well, OK, then, if you don't cast offensively, I can see why you don't like AoV. That doesn't diminish AoV's objective strength, however - it's an incredible PRE.

Yeah, I can see why you'd want to switch to Cleric then - Devs do push Cleric into 'Prime healbot' niche currently. I guess you can return to FvS if Beacon of Hope ever gets done. ... or you could embrace your inner dark side and start killing things that stumble into your general vicinity.

[Faent]

Too bad 10 or so people acount for 95% fo the posts and views

You're one of the serial offenders.

[smatt]

You're one of the serial offenders.

Offender? Well I will agree that I can be offensive But there was no critque there, I was merely pointing out that the muber of posts and page views often times ahs little to do with the palyer bases views... It is likely that this change will bother a good portion of the FvS players.. But most will shrug and play on, jsut as most of us have done so with every other change..... All changes aren't going to be chocolate chip cookies, sometimes we will get broccolli... And this one is broccolli with no cheese sauce to be found It's meh....

[MrkGrismer]

Since this is now the 'unofficial official' thread for this disucssion:

To beat on another dead horse:

I still believe the real solution would be to add a check such that if distance between aggro target and monster continues to increase, monster stops, checks for better targets and if none are found then ranges aggro target. Specifically that each time the monster's turn came around if it was not closing on its aggro target then it would increment an dealWithBloodyKiter counter, and then use it to determine a percent chance that it would look for another target and if no target is found, range the kiter.

[Faent]

Offender? Well I will agree that I can be offensive

It's a common term for someone who is repeatedly found guilty of doing something. =)

It is likely that this change will bother a good portion of the FvS players.. But most will shrug and play on, jsut as most of us have done so with every other change..... It's meh....

This is speculation. I predict the forums will be flooded with furious folks who never otherwise come to the forums. You're entitled to your opinion that this change is "meh", but that's all it is---your opinion.

[Kmnh]

Clipping FvS wings will cut the "healing" population by 2/3. I won't join a PUG with my fvs if I can't kite with wings, unless I have a few guildies/friends with me, and I trust that we can power through the quest with soulstones in our backpacks if needed.

Meanwhile, the powergamers will still use theirs FvSs to tank bosses, or go crazy kiting with with 18/2 barb rogues and shadow walk scrolls

[smatt]

It's a common term for someone who is repeatedly found guilty of doing something. =)

Guilty implies wrong doing......

This is speculation. I predict the forums will be flooded with furious folks who never otherwise come to the forums. You're entitled to your opinion that this change is "meh", but that's all it is---your opinion.

Flooded... Well just a before there will be a few people who don't come here often chiming in.. But for the most part it will be the same 100 or so that post often accross the forums that make most of the noise. I think you over estimate how many peopel will really care enough to bother to banter on...

And yes it is my opinion.... Which is typically, sure it's a nerf and whatever.... When it's not fun I won't play... There are far more important things to ME in this game then fricken wings

[smatt]

Clipping FvS wings will cut the "healing" population by 2/3. I won't join a PUG with my fvs if I can't kite with wings, unless I have a few guildies/friends with me, and I trust that we can power through the quest with soulstones in our backpacks if needed.

Meanwhile, the powergamers will still use theirs FvSs to tank bosses, or go crazy kiting with with 18/2 barb rogues and shadow walk scrolls

2/3rds? Ummm... Are you prone to exageration?

[gloopygloop]

Clipping FvS wings will cut the "healing" population by 2/3.

I agree with the 2/3 number that Kmnh offers. I base that agreement on the fact that 2/3 of the people who had TWF melee characters stopped playing TWF melee last spring when TWF was nerfed. That is why we see almost no TWF melee today and almost everyone uses THF instead.

[Flugzeug]

Guilty implies wrong doing......




Flooded... Well just a before there will be a few people who don't come here often chiming in.. But for the most part it will be the same 100 or so that post often accross the forums that make most of the noise. I think you over estimate how many peopel will really care enough to bother to banter on...

And yes it is my opinion.... Which is typically, sure it's a nerf and whatever.... When it's not fun I won't play... There are far more important things to ME in this game then fricken wings

If you add it up...you'll find the number of posts I have made / the number of people that have posted in this forum that support my view is a lower number than the posts you've made / the number of people that have posted in this forum that support your point of view.

If I didn't have to work 12 hrs a day, every day except weekends, I would happily take the time to add it up for ya.

[budalic]

Clipping FvS wings will cut the "healing" population by 2/3. I won't join a PUG with my fvs if I can't kite with wings, unless I have a few guildies/friends with me, and I trust that we can power through the quest with soulstones in our backpacks if needed.

Meanwhile, the powergamers will still use theirs FvSs to tank bosses, or go crazy kiting with with 18/2 barb rogues and shadow walk scrolls

You don't consider yourself a powergamer?

[Stanley_Nicholas]

So, I still haven't seen any rational explanation why wings are going to cost both spellpoints AND charges. Almost all the talk so far has completely glossed over that point, and to me it's a very significant point. Don't the charges already prevent everything Turbine felt was overpowered, with the added "bonus" of also nerfing them in situations that weren't exploits or overpowered at all? Why is this the only ability in the game that should cost charges AND spellpoints? Rationally, it seems to me it should be one or the other, and the new charges mechanic seems to make the use of SP entirely redundant. But instead of changing the cost from SP to charges, they're adding charges and not just keeping the SP cost but actually doubling it?? It makes no sense to me, and is only going to discourage people, including myself, from using a fun ability in situations where it doesn't need to be discouraged.

If there absolutely must be both costs simultaneously for wings, which I think needs some explanation if that is the case because I'm not seeing it, then why does the SP cost need to double in addition to the other new restrictions being applied?

[smatt]

If you add it up...you'll find the number of posts I have made / the number of people that have posted in this forum that support my view is a lower number than the posts you've made / the number of people that have posted in this forum that support your point of view.

If I didn't have to work 12 hrs a day, every day except weekends, I would happily take the time to add it up for ya.

Ya but most if not all my posts are meaningless drivel....

1. Who cares (IMO)
2. It does suck for those who do care.
3. It's not end fo the world, just like any other very powerful ability learn to use them onyl when you need them while in quest.
4. Nerfs happen they always have they always will, get used to it.
5. Just because a few people are really totally ****ed off,most are onyl mildly annoyed.
6. IMO this doesn't "Destroy" FvS at all, IMO.
7. Anybody and everybody else has a right to their opinion.
8. I like beer!

[Faent]

So, I still haven't seen any rational explanation why wings are going to cost both spellpoints AND charges. Almost all the talk so far has completely glossed over that point, and to me it's a very significant point. Don't the charges already prevent everything Turbine felt was overpowered, with the added "bonus" of also nerfing them in situations that weren't exploits or overpowered at all? Why is this the only ability in the game that should cost charges AND spellpoints? Rationally, it seems to me it should be one or the other, and the new charges mechanic seems to make the use of SP entirely redundant. But instead of changing the cost from SP to charges, they're adding charges and not just keeping the SP cost but actually doubling it?? It makes no sense to me, and is only going to discourage people, including myself, from using a fun ability in situations where it doesn't need to be discouraged.

If there absolutely must be both costs simultaneously for wings, which I think needs some explanation if that is the case because I'm not seeing it, then why does the SP cost need to double in addition to the other new restrictions being applied?

It's not such a big deal. I do a lot of winging on my FvS, and SP is never an issue. Since I'll be able to wing less than half as much now, SP is even less of an issue even if the cost is doubled. So basically, the question you're raising is a non-issue.