Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[kitsune_ko]

*cough*Angel of Venegnance*cough*

Given a choice between having the massive AoE aggro magnet that is the "Angel of Vengance" aura that is running constantly; or being able to use almost continually a HP healing Aura, and also have the ability to regen SP for the blue-bar users. I would say the cleric has the far better class abilities.

I played FvS well before the Angel of Vengance line was released. It was the Leap of Faith that made me buy the class; not because of my abilities as a seer to forsee the Angel of Vengace line coming two years after the FvS release and wanting to get in on the ground floor for it.

The natural elemental resistances of FvS are basically obsolete now with ship buffs so easily available.

The Additional SP is a nice perk, but the Sorc get the same thing; and they are a free class not a pay one like FvS.

FvS have a 3-day cool-down wait each time you swap a single spell, also not so awesome on a pay class. Serverly limiting the FvS class versitility in spell casting as compared to the other, and free, healing class Cleric, who can swap their spells at will, and more then just one at a time.

Leap of faith is/was the defining feature and perf of the FvS class. And it is also why a lot of people decided to pay for it, not for the bad enhancements and lack of ability to change out spells.

[walkingwolfmike]

Given a choice between having the massive AoE aggro magnet that is the "Angel of Vengance" aura that is running constantly; or being able to use almost continually a HP healing Aura, and also have the ability to regen SP for the blue-bar users. I would say the cleric has the far better class abilities.

I played FvS well before the Angel of Vengance line was released. It was the Leap of Faith that made me buy the class; not because of my abilities as a seer to forsee the Angel of Vengace line coming two years after the FvS release and wanting to get in on the ground floor for it.

The natural elemental resistances of FvS are basically obsolete now with ship buffs so easily available.

The Additional SP is a nice perk, but the Sorc get the same thing; and they are a free class not a pay one like FvS.

FvS have a 3-day cool-down wait each time you swap a single spell, also not so awesome on a pay class. Serverly limiting the FvS class versitility in spell casting as compared to the other, and free, healing class Cleric, who can swap their spells at will, and more then just one at a time.

Leap of faith is/was the defining feature and perf of the FvS class. And it is also why a lot of people decided to pay for it, not for the bad enhancements and lack of ability to change out spells.

^^^ yup, 100% this. +1

[Yalina]

Having their use limited and sp cost doubled is like not having them for people that like me are used to fly instead of walking

It's not the end of the world, i'll just tr my wf fvs in a wf wiz, but it's quite annoying to have one of the most fun features nerfed cause of their inability to design challenging quests for all.

Probably no more fvs for me, i've already bought it though, so i'm not going to get my money back

Same feelings, probably I will TR Yalina too, no fun, no heals. (I guess noone cares, but still 350+ raids on her, she did her part for the community.)

[pHo3nix]

Same feelings, probably I will TR Yalina too, no fun, no heals. (I guess noone cares, but still 350+ raids on her, she did her part for the community.)

Aye, healing is not that fun, but considering fvs was so cool it was bearable. Now i'll probably try a cleric, but i guess i'll end up with all self-healing casters. I will miss my fvs though

[Viisari]

Given a choice between having the massive AoE aggro magnet that is the "Angel of Vengance" aura that is running constantly; or being able to use almost continually a HP healing Aura, and also have the ability to regen SP for the blue-bar users. I would say the cleric has the far better class abilities.

When healing, yes. When doing other stuff, no. Favored Souls make superior evokers and melees compared to clerics. Cleric is only better when doing healing, which as far as I am concerned is only a small part of being a divine.

If you want to play a healbot, fine, but don't try to pretend it's the only thing divines are capable of.

The natural elemental resistances of FvS are basically obsolete now with ship buffs so easily available.

...except that they stack with them meaning you can get 3 resists up to 40 rather easily, a rather big bonus. It's also possible to get them much higher with some gearing.

The Additional SP is a nice perk, but the Sorc get the same thing; and they are a free class not a pay one like FvS.

SP is good but not what makes them great.

FvS have a 3-day cool-down wait each time you swap a single spell, also not so awesome on a pay class. Serverly limiting the FvS class versitility in spell casting as compared to the other, and free, healing class Cleric, who can swap their spells at will, and more then just one at a time.

Irrelevant, there's no need to swap spells in this game once you know the good ones. But that's an issue with the available spell list, not favored soul.

Leap of faith is/was the defining feature and perf of the FvS class. And it is also why a lot of people decided to pay for it, not for the bad enhancements and lack of ability to change out spells.

Perhaps for you, but I see many other things that make a FvS the superior choice for many situations where wings don't factor in.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Because Turbine has decided it is needed.

The recent nerfs to extend and the removal of autocrit were much bigger nerfs than this is yet generated nowhere near the amount of whining. And those weren't big nerfs in the grand scale of things either.

First off, stop calling anyone with a legitimate complaint "whining". It is nothing more than an attempt to belittle an argument just because you don't agree with it. It is a perfectly justified thing to complain about an impending reduction in one's fun, and you are not qualified to judge what anyone other than yourself does or does not consider fun.

The nerfs to Extend and Autocrit were both significantly mitigated by other changes or additions that lessened their impacts from face value. Extend was nerfed and I and many others complained about that even if you didn't notice, but at the same time they also introduced changes to many of the spells that increased their power or decreased their cost (or both). It was a big nerf to firewall, but we also got DOTs to provide new, high dps options (maybe even too high). It was also a nerf to blade barrier, but in exchange they greatly reduced the casting time.

Autocrit was also nerfed significantly and anyone who made greensteel picks had every right to be ****ed about it. And there was a lot of outcry about that too, even if it seems to have faded in your memory. But at the same time, epic mobs (the ones who autocrit actually mattered against) also had their hitpoints slashed in half, so things didn't end up feeling much different even without autocrit, except for those who had wasted tons of resources crafting picks.

In each of those cases you cite, where you claim there was little complaint even though there actually was quite a bit, there were other changes at the same time which lessened the severity of those nerfs. There are no such mitigating changes in the pipeline for a wings nerf, so the nerf itself is and will be felt much more strongly. Circumstances where wings provide no benefit other than fun, or saving 30 seconds of your time, are being hit just as hard as raid boss kiting. Therefore this nerf is not comparable to Extend or Autocrit, because its environment causes it to be more severe of a change than either of those were.

I see no evidence of this. None of the favored souls in my guild play them because they have wings. Nobody I've ever played with has said they only play favored souls because of wings. From what I see, only a rather small, but very vocal minority on the forums play favored souls just because of wings and are now screaming about it like there's no tomorrow.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

All your "lack of evidence" means is that you tend to run with people who share a similar viewpoint to your own, nothing more. You see no evidence, but many others do. If you play a FvS and don't mind these changes, then good for you - I mean that. However for a number of other people, they represent a significant reduction in non-exploit-related fun, for an extremely poorly justified reason. Actually the only good reason I can think of for you to be so actively arguing against people in this thread is if the current implementation of wings is actually providing you with tangibly less fun than the Lama changes would. Is that the case?

And again you're speaking like you've lost your wings, you have not, stop speaking like you have. All you have lost is the ability to spam them without thought, that's it, requiring thinking from your players is not unreasonable.

That's not true, the total number of times you are able to use your wings is also being cut in half, by doubling the spellpoint cost. The other part of the nerf already completely limits the ability to spam wings, so what is even the purpose of this double nerf? It does literally nothing to improve fun or game balance - it's merely half of their previous nerf plan that they decided to leave in to rub some extra salt in the wounds of players who will already be hurt by this (which apparently does not mean you, yes we understand, but your experiences on the matter are not applicable to anyone else).

Heck, I don't think there's any other ability of comparable power that requires no thinking about how you use it. Even using stunning blow needs more thinking than using wings does.

Use of wings certainly requires thinking. Where will you land? You have to make sure it won't be off the ledge in the lava, or in the middle of a pack of epic mobs who will beat you down until your cooldown refreshes.

How about SP cost? Contrary to popular belief, wings are not free. Failure to even consider the very real SP cost of continually spamming your wings is simply a failure to master a very important aspect of the class: your finite SP pool. I find the current cost of 5 SP to be very tangible and try to limit my wing use simply for that reason. 10 SP will definitely cause me to use the ability even less, which will indeed be less fun. I don't think the anti-spam thing is hardly even going to cause any changes for me personally, but the SP cost will, and for no good reason either. If it won't bother you then great, but it will bother me. And not including pots, I bet I have a lot more average spellpoints to burn per shrine than you do.

Wings require no less thought than using many other abilities, such as barbarian rage, divine favor/divine might/zeal or most metamagics just for example.

Irrelevant, there's no need to swap spells in this game once you know the good ones. But that's an issue with the available spell list, not favored soul.

I for one would love to have Heal, Harm, Blade Barrier, Mass Cure Moderate, and Cometfall on my FvS. A cleric can have all of these at once, but a FvS has to pick two to go without.

[BlargneyTheSecond]

That was very well said, Stanley_Nicholas. +1

[dragon2fire]

That was very well said, Stanley_Nicholas. +1

this seriously well put

[SableShadow]

<excellent summary>

Nicely said.

[smatt]

This, and cause before i was a tukaw build and was having lot of fun, then i realized fvs got almost everything my tukaw had + wings. Now that wings are gone i might as well go back to a wiz or sorc, at least i do not have to heal parties full of squishies

Wait??? You mean you're using someone elses build??? And you say the Devs should do better at designing

I'm just joking BTW


I undestand why people might be ****y about this.... Like I said.. It's going to slow down my runs to ADQ and other far away quests by many seconds.. Other than that.... To me it's no big deal..... But niether were almsot every other change in this game.. Except for the old XP debt death penalty.. THAT was the end of DDO But when a function that someone really like sis taken away... Well it does suck no doubt about it....

[voodoogroves]

Wait??? You mean you're using someone elses build??? And you say the Devs should do better at designing

I'm just joking BTW


I undestand why people might be ****y about this.... Like I said.. It's going to slow down my runs to ADQ and other far away quests by many seconds.. Other than that.... To me it's no big deal..... But niether were almsot every other change in this game.. Except for the old XP debt death penalty.. THAT was the end of DDO But when a function that someone really like sis taken away... Well it does suck no doubt about it....

See, I kinda agree with you ... but I must hate that run to ADQ a lot more ...

;-)



I ran Prey on my cleric the other day thinking I needed to farm up some DT for him. I only ran it once. So slow ...

[Rodasch]

See, I kinda agree with you ... but I must hate that run to ADQ a lot more ...

;-)



I ran Prey on my cleric the other day thinking I needed to farm up some DT for him. I only ran it once. So slow ...

I've gotten to the point I don't even notice the run to ADQ anymore, and can do it on autopilot. I never used wings, just haste and jump. Maybe it just doesn't seem as bad to me because I came from EverQuest where there were times we did have some seriously long and dangerous runs to get to where we were going. Just a matter of acquired tolerance I guess, but I surely understand how it can feel like forever for some folks who are used to doing it faster.

[smatt]

I've gotten to the point I don't even notice the run to ADQ anymore, and can do it on autopilot. I never used wings, just haste and jump. Maybe it just doesn't seem as bad to me because I came from EverQuest where there were times we did have some seriously long and dangerous runs to get to where we were going. Just a matter of acquired tolerance I guess, but I surely understand how it can feel like forever for some folks who are used to doing it faster.

HEY HEY HEY.. There's a HUGE difference between 2 min 53 sec, and 2 min 27 sec!

[budalic]

Given a choice between having the massive AoE aggro magnet that is the "Angel of Vengance" aura that is running constantly; or being able to use almost continually a HP healing Aura, and also have the ability to regen SP for the blue-bar users. I would say the cleric has the far better class abilities.

Dammit, I was certain you were reasonable, but now I think you're way too much wing raging.

So, we have PRE (only 2-tier PRE even) that:

• Effectively offers +2 DC on all spells, not only to you, but to your team members nearby too. Main draw of wizard PREs? +2 DC in one school. At tier 3.
• Offers +10% to +50% damage with light spells on bosses. Now, I saw 5-stacks of condemnation often prior to u11 - and now it even lasts longer. Awesome ability - also, nerf to damage bonus was justified, IMO. Even with only +50 at max is still very powerful.
• Additionally, offers +30% damage to blade barriers; which makes your barriers 2-nd best in game when arties get released.
• Gives you additional source of small light damage that automatically shoots your target.

It's, hands down, best caster PRE in game.

And you get 10 points of elemental resist, stacking, on top of it; wings, that are still good; some weapon bonuses; Sovereign host capstone, very good, if paired with some heal amp; DR 10/something. Spell versality? It doesn't matter at all with divine caster currently. Spell points don't matter too, IMO, but you do have a bit more of them too.

EDIT: Wing nerf sucks, I understand, but don't make silly arguments, please.

[BlargneyTheSecond]

HEY HEY HEY.. There's a HUGE difference between 2 min 53 sec, and 2 min 27 sec!

All this statement means is that you don't value your time as much as other people value theirs.

[waterboytkd]

How about SP cost? Contrary to popular belief, wings are not free. Failure to even consider the very real SP cost of continually spamming your wings is simply a failure to master a very important aspect of the class: your finite SP pool. I find the current cost of 5 SP to be very tangible and try to limit my wing use simply for that reason. 10 SP will definitely cause me to use the ability even less, which will indeed be less fun. I don't think the anti-spam thing is hardly even going to cause any changes for me personally, but the SP cost will, and for no good reason either.

Another thing to consider: currently, on live, I can wing every three seconds to get somewhere in a public instance (and yeah, I know they're making it that way post nerf, too). So, that's 5 SP every three seconds, which turns out, is very close to the SP regen rate in public instances. Meaning, if I wing like a freak to get to a quest in a public instance, I'll get there with very close to max SP (seems like at most, 20 SP short).

The new SP cost, however, means that I will get there with substantially much less SP (if my rough eyeball estimates are correct, if it would put me -20 SP on live now, I would be about 100 SP short post nerf). Maybe not a massive amount of SP gone, but enough to be annoying for sure.

[Caseas]

If Wings are gonna go back to a limited number of casts per day, can we get all spells to go back to that, as well? Please?

[Flugzeug]

since there are 3 threads about the leap of faith, I will post my opinion in all 3. but seriously, it would look more impressive and convey a stronger message to turbine if we had one 1,000 post 50,000 views thread, than several smaller ones. then again, I don't work for Turbine so maybe multiple threads is better. I don't know.

Here's my opinion:

Turbine has impressed me with their programming ability to change the leap of faith to an ability that acts differently in town than it does in dungeons.

so...

it makes the nerf that should be done, easy...as I now know they have the capability to do this.

Wings go back to being chargeless 5sp or 10sp per use. When harried or chained, they do not work at all.

Every major raid boss had a dream that the Truthful One gave to them...he taught them how to create high gravity around their being. So, all major raid bosses now throw out a high gravity spell that prevents all leaps of faith, abundant steps, and wind dances while in their proximity.

No more wing kill-kiting bosses (I still will give money to someone who can tell me where this happens besides demon queen)

but I still get to use the wings as an ADHD OCD gamer that loves speed. When I have to run 175 demon queens to get just one epic chaos blade, I don't look forward to the next 175 DQs, those wings really do make a difference in my mind...even if they aren't much of an advantage in reality.

This is the perfect nerf. Why do anything else?

I won't stop spewing propaganda in my groups that I run each day on the live server. For every 12 people in a raid group that I tell them about the nerf that's planned, many times no one in the group knows but sometimes 1 person in 12 will know about the upcoming nerf. After 3 days of doing this, that average is about 3 per group of 12. Out of hundreds of people that really dislike the change, only 2 people have said they don't mind. So, I will keep telling people on the live servers and after enough people flood lamannia maybe we can get the perfect nerf. We won't see every favored soul quit, but I think it's safe to say at least 1 in 10 will TR to different class or quit the game. Seems like a high price for not doing the perfect nerf.

[budalic]

If Wings are gonna go back to a limited number of casts per day, can we get all spells to go back to that, as well? Please?

/sarcasm
Hmm, that's a good idea... have, say, 4 charges per spell level on a wizard/cleric, 6 on a FvS, and let them regenerate at 1 every 15 secs per spell level (12 on a sorc/FvS). Also, remove coolown on all spells. So, one wail/implosion each 15 secs, with no resources expended.
/sarcasm off

[Yagi]

All this statement means is that you don't value your time as much as other people value theirs.

26 seconds? Really?