Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Jahmin]

Originally Posted by Faent
To hold that correcting someone must involve insulting them is to traffic in linguistic and conceptual confusion

I've never espoused such a position; certainly not in this thread.

You sure?

Originally Posted by Faent
Telling someone that they're mistaken is not insulting them.

That is incorrect.

Not insulting; just correcting

[kitsune_ko]

That is exactly untrue. It's not like the DDO devs have a tradition of explaining design choices to the players, so the fact that they're not explaining right now is simply their default and expected behavior.

In fact, the amount of irrational griping in this thread would make the developers very unlikely to say anything about it in the near-term future. If they say something then it will come off as an insult to those players who are complaining here, and those players will get more mad, regardless of if the reasons are correct and sensible or not.

The devs probably could've avoided being in that position if they had talked more about design topics earlier on, but at this moment for this topic, that's the position they're in: it'd be radioactive to the touch.

At some point there is going to have to be an explaination given. And this is hardly something players of the FvS class are not going to notice once the next update goes live.

Already this is causing a lot of controversy just in Lamannia since the change. When players log into their FvS after the next update, and find LoF has its SP cost doubled, and is now limited/timed in use in all game zones, combat and non-, there is going to be a lot of screaming going on from players absolutely blindsided by this change once it goes live.

Whether you like it or not; Leap of faith is the defining attribute of Favored Souls to most players. Moreso then a SP increase or a now-obsolete natural elemental resistance. A large change to this defining attribute is going to get a lot of negative feedback. I fail to see how explaining why it was done to the players could somehow make it worse.

Unpopular decisions are the ones that need the most explainations; not the least. The Devs refusing to give any sort of reason or explaination as to why they made a very unpopular change, expecially to a pay class, is a very bad idea.

And I have to say that at least personally; being totally ignored when I am asking an important question or trying to get information from somone is a hell of a lot more likely to make me mad, then being answered and given a reason or explaination that I do not like.

And this is going to have to be answered, either now or when the update goes live and the general forums and reporting systems are clogged with 10,000 "OMG! ***! my FvS is broken! Why?" posts.

[Viisari]

And this is going to have to be answered, either now or when the update goes live and the general forums and reporting systems are clogged with 10,000 "OMG! ***! my FvS is broken! Why?" posts.

It's funny how much overreacting this whole change is generating. The nerf is small yet people are screaming like the world is ending, favored souls will continue to be an extremely powerful and versalite class even after the change.

At this point I don't even really care about the why and the how, I wish Turbine will go through with the nerf just so I can keep collecting all these delicious FvS tears which are being shed in ridiculous amounts for ridiculous reasons.

Though having an unlimited usage in public areas wouldn't be unreasonable, but then again, monks don't have that either and I don't see them crying all over the place.

This nerf isn't a big one, it's a very minor nerf in the history of nerfs DDO has, and nerfs are a part of any given MMORPG, heck any given game that is being updated constantly. Deal with it.

[dragon2fire]

if the nerf is so small and has such a strong reaction against it ...why not just let us be eh.

[pHo3nix]

It's funny how much overreacting this whole change is generating. The nerf is small yet people are screaming like the world is ending, favored souls will continue to be an extremely powerful and versalite class even after the change.

The point is this is a nerf to the gameplay and affect fun cause most people play fvs cause of wings.

If they changed khopesh to match its PnP counterpart it would be a "fix" that wouldn't affect fun, it would just mean it would take some more swings to kill things.

If the real problem is kiting with DP just give it a save for half damage.

@Angelus: basically yes, on my fvs lives i just aim for lvl 17 and then i'm happy, before that i'm just a cleric with more sp, less spells and no aura

[Viisari]

if the nerf is so small and has such a strong reaction against it ...why not just let us be eh.

Because Turbine has decided it is needed.

The recent nerfs to extend and the removal of autocrit were much bigger nerfs than this is yet generated nowhere near the amount of whining. And those weren't big nerfs in the grand scale of things either.

The point is this is a nerf to the gameplay and affect fun cause most people play fvs cause of wings.

I see no evidence of this. None of the favored souls in my guild play them because they have wings. Nobody I've ever played with has said they only play favored souls because of wings. From what I see, only a rather small, but very vocal minority on the forums play favored souls just because of wings and are now screaming about it like there's no tomorrow.

And again you're speaking like you've lost your wings, you have not, stop speaking like you have. All you have lost is the ability to spam them without thought, that's it, requiring thinking from your players is not unreasonable.

Heck, I don't think there's any other ability of comparable power that requires no thinking about how you use it. Even using stunning blow needs more thinking than using wings does.

[pHo3nix]

Because Turbine has decided it is needed.

The recent nerfs to extend and the removal of autocrit were much bigger nerfs than this is yet generated nowhere near the amount of whining. And those weren't big nerfs in the grand scale of things either.



I see no evidence of this. None of the favored souls in my guild play them because they have wings. Nobody I've ever played with has said they only play favored souls because of wings. From what I see, only a rather small, but very vocal minority on the forums play favored souls just because of wings and are now screaming about it like there's no tomorrow.

And again you're speaking like you've lost your wings, you have not, stop speaking like you have. All you have lost is the ability to spam them without thought, that's it, requiring thinking from your players is not unreasonable.

Heck, I don't think there's any other ability of comparable power that requires no thinking about how you use it. Even using stunning blow needs more thinking than using wings does.

Having their use limited and sp cost doubled is like not having them for people that like me are used to fly instead of walking

It's not the end of the world, i'll just tr my wf fvs in a wf wiz, but it's quite annoying to have one of the most fun features nerfed cause of their inability to design challenging quests for all.

Probably no more fvs for me, i've already bought it though, so i'm not going to get my money back

[budalic]

It's not the end of the world, i'll just tr my wf fvs in a wf wiz

I don't get why people keep saying this, really - is it because of random invites and 'hjeal me' pug nature?

'cuz I don't see how FvS is worse than arcanes...

[pHo3nix]

I don't get why people keep saying this, really - is it because of random invites and 'hjeal me' pug nature?

This, and cause before i was a tukaw build and was having lot of fun, then i realized fvs got almost everything my tukaw had + wings. Now that wings are gone i might as well go back to a wiz or sorc, at least i do not have to heal parties full of squishies

[Terebinthia]

If you are feeling civic minded Zunez has a petition for wings to be usable without worrying about charges in public and explorer areas: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=337569 .

I'm not sold on this change being needed at all, but if they insist on pushing through with it it seems like a reasonable compromise.

I love my wings, they make me smile. Just ran another FvS up to cap because I was missing them. I really ought to try Air Sav at some point I guess

[EvilI]

Because Turbine has decided it is needed.

The recent nerfs to extend and the removal of autocrit were much bigger nerfs than this is yet generated nowhere near the amount of whining. And those weren't big nerfs in the grand scale of things either.

I for one felt that firewall prenerf was a pretty gamebraking thing. But even then it's hard to describe what happened to spellcasters as a major nerf with the addition of DoT:s and removal of instakill imunnities in epics. And the removal of autocrit on hold can hardly be described as a nerf, it was general overhaul of gamemechanics (though to disqualify SA damage from the +50% dmg increase seems somewhat arbitrary). Most people probably thought these were pretty OK ideas.

Wings are not and haven't been braking the game in any significant sense, people don't agree with the statement that wings have been braking the game, and that is the reason they are annoyed.

[voodoogroves]

I see no evidence of this. None of the favored souls in my guild play them because they have wings. Nobody I've ever played with has said they only play favored souls because of wings. From what I see, only a rather small, but very vocal minority on the forums play favored souls just because of wings and are now screaming about it like there's no tomorrow.

Your experience is yours, and is just as valid as someone else's who thinks many FVS players were attracted to the wings - based on their personal experience and evidence.


"From what I see"

Exactly.

"minority"

From your side of the fence. Remember, there's another side and their experience obviously contradicts yours. No one has the scientific proof; we'd all be a lot better if we didn't assume everyone was like us.


...

What you are seeing is not "evidence of others" but the actual "others" speaking out and wanting their wings.

[Viisari]

But even then it's hard to describe what happened to spellcasters as a major nerf with the addition of DoT:s and removal of instakill imunnities in epics.

Casters might have received boosts in other areas, but there is no question about the fact that extend lost pretty much 90% of the uses it had previously so it was hit by a rather harsh nerf.

And the removal of autocrit on hold can hardly be described as a nerf, it was general overhaul of gamemechanics (though to disqualify SA damage from the +50% dmg increase seems somewhat arbitrary). Most people probably thought these were pretty OK ideas.

Removing autocrit made KI generation more difficult for monks and made heavy picks basically ****. It was a nerf for any build using KI or heavy picks. Yet I don't see my guildie monk whining about this or another guildie who now has 2 min II and 2 lit II heavy picks rotting in his bank complain anywhere near this much. Sure they were slightly annoyed at first but then they moved on.

Wings are not and haven't been braking the game in any significant sense, people don't agree with the statement that wings have been braking the game, and that is the reason they are annoyed.

But wings do break game mechanics as they are now. They allow you to ignore red alert and chains almost completely, thus Turbine has decided this needs to change. Whether the change they're going for is good or bad is another matter entirely and I'm not going to comment on that because I don't really care about the whole thing.

Whatever the case, the reaction to this whole thing has been ridiculously over the top and in no way in touch with what is actually going to happen.

Oh, and as a side note, before I even heard about this nerf I was thinking about TR'ing my air savant sorc into a favored soul, and hearing about this nerf has not really affected those plans in the slighest.

[jojje_b]

after reading the first 10 pages of the thread i gave up, so what im writing here is not taking into consideration things that have been said after that point.

at first i agreed that wings needed nerfs, then after thinking for a while and reading what people had to say about it i realized that the wings werent the real problem. please devs, this thread has an abundance of suggestions that would work better than nerfing wings so PLEASE take those into consideration. i will accept the nerf if it comes and the current suggestion feels like a fair change, but i also think it should definitly be unlimited in public areas, i can not see any downpart to this except the time it takes to implement (add it as an effect to the town regeneration buff we already have?) and the community WILL be happy for it.
even though i said ill accept the nerf if i got to choose between the prenerf and the nerfed version i would of course take the prenerf version. the reason im questioning the nerf is because i dont see how the nerfed version really helps fixing the problem. the reasons behind your kiting problem is not the wings

this thread has mainly discussed the wings effects during boss fights and im guessing some of the reason for nerfs are because of how they break regular quests as well. maybe prevent wing use while harried? that sounds like it could prevent the really abusive effects during regular questing.

if the changes do happen you could add enchantments, feats and gear to improve wing use which would be kind of fun

hearing your reasons for discarding our ideas would be nice as well and would make the community more understanding but i realize your time is limited so i would understand if u didnt.

while your at it you could design boss fights that would require kiting during certain phases, make us use diplo to loose aggro and intimi to get it back and such and make sure to set the dc's somewhere we can actually reach.

at least dont change it in the coming update, have us try out the changes in lammania first

[smatt]

Yes exactly, a good DM would create encounters in which wings wouldn't be so "game breaking" as some of you guys think

But a good DM in some random PnP game doesn't have to worry about a BUDGET either Nor do they have to worry about the wide wie world of 10's of thousands of players in a static uncontrollable enviroment with all the variety that is DDO. They have a static small group of people around a table... Hopefully with lots of good food and drink to go with it

It is what it is...

[smatt]

I'm talking about my favored soul and what I do because that's what this thread is about, right? Favored souls. You claim they are the most powerful class in DDO and tons of awesome players agree that they are the best. Well, I disagree and I'm using my experiences to back that up. My wizard is the most powerful character I have. You know, when I leveled him up I took the expeditious retreat spell and I used it all the time until I got haste, and then I blew lots of spell points doing haste even when I don't need to. Maybe I'm OCD, or maybe it's because with multiple real life jobs and not a huge amount of free time, I like to make the most out of my time. Whether it's a sprint boost that gets me somewhere faster, 17 cleric/3monk that gets me somewhere faster, pure monk, wizard that overspams haste, favored soul leap of faith. I just wish my favored soul could cast the expeditious retreat spell....then he'd be an overpowered beast of convenience until I toss striding on him.

No no, what I meant in my orginal post you quoted was that in the overall balance of the game the FvS is IMO and many others the most powerful.. I didn't say "Tons" but I suppose if we wieghed all the peopel of that opinion, sure it would be. Of course peopel can create powerful toons in ALMOST any class, Sorc, Wizzy, FvS are all at this point well over powered.. By saying this am I calling for arbitrary nerfs.. No... But it sure wouldn't suprise me if and when they come....

Your wording in your previous post implied favored souls were the top of the food chain and need to be nerfed. Your post that I"m quoting says differently, that based on situations they could be the best and I agree. There are times when a monk is best and there are times when a rogue is best, etc. Just today a guildmate of mine was telling me how happy he was to solo amrath with his rogue for the first time.

Of course in certain quests, certain classes and certain builds will ahve advantages. I'm talking gamewide..... They have the most varied skills that can be brought to the playing field at the same time with reasonable competance.

You say FVS is an easy button because of divine punishment, indefinite self heal, and self buff? and because of this you agree with wings being nerfed? Ha. Well, divine punishment should be nerfed. That's easy.

I agree.... DoTs (Yes I use them and love them) are well.... Very powerful What I said was the FvS in a many instance, well built well geared, can do msot everything, self heal, self buff, be a competant melee, a competant spell caster.. All at the same time... THAT is a huge advantage....

There is no singular reason why this wing nerf doesn't bother me that much, or why I have the opinion that they let this good thing go way to long. So stop trying to pigeon hole me into such a place.

Indefinite self heal? Well, I have the torc, a dr of 37 when shield blocking with my wf fvs, I have con-opp gs item and I have never been able to make a tough raid boss or epic enemy give me more sp than I use to heal myself. I would always run out of sp. With SP pots sure, I can self heal forever....but I refuse to spend real life money on SP pots. It would make the game too easy and boring and I think that would be an easy button. But any class can do that which has spell points. The LoF shouldn't take the nerf because of SP pots. You could also build a character with UMD and heal amp and indefinitely self heal with heal scrolls. Combine that with better melee dmg than a fvs and all you're missing is self buffs...but unless soloing or without guild ship full of buffs, who needs self buffs?

Of course of course... Raid bosses likely msot times don't give out as many SP as say trash mobs since they more dam per hit.. BUT with effective game play you can mitigate, and again I'm talking in general terms, not specific instances. SP pots have NOTHING to do with it at all. You're bring subjects in that are completely irrelevant... Not does UM, you try and get a scroll off solo against a raid boss on a UMD toon... The combination of weighted DDO dice, and the concentration failures... LOL Maybe if you used your wings more effectively then you wouldn't take so much raid boss damage and woudln't blow your SP so fast (Me being a smart ass) .

Sorry that I disagree that gamewide across all quests... The FvS IS the most effective and powerful class.... And so be it, at one time it was the sorcy, another it was the wizzy, AC melees had their day back in mods 2 and 3.... Timi's had their times.... Barbs their's.. Oh and those ugly days of WoP TWF slaughter machines...


I can see how this change would bother FvS lovers...... It's just to me that nerfs simply require different game play. Unlimited wings are fun, but they also setup an easy button situation in many quests. And I will most certainly agree that this is the case with many different class abilities in various situations...

I just don't see it as the end of the world for FvS.... They still have plenty of differing attributes from clerics...... They will be fine, at least to the people that adjust their gameplay , they will still have thier wings when it counts

We'll see.... My prediction.. This sticks...

[Flixxer]

They suck with broken wings, i played my fvs only for this ignoring my cleric, but now i do not give a ball about playing either, because they are similar, you know what cleric in my point of view is better now.
Many people say that they will quit and etc, but I have to add this they do this unpopular move i change my game, because I do not like to be ****ted and pay money for that. As I said earlier it is competitive world out there, many games which are really good and even better than ddo. I want to have fun and not to get game serious

[dragon2fire]

Because i said so is not a good reason for this change. You can put me in the tring into a warforged sorc camp if they change this. And for the record sarlona you think there is a shortage of healers now i am may not be the best on the server but i really am flat out done with it if they do this no more heals form me and i know no one cares.

[EvilI]

[...]


But wings do break game mechanics as they are now. They allow you to ignore red alert and chains almost completely, thus Turbine has decided this needs to change.

Dungeon alert is only a problem for if you allow it to become a problem. With nerfed wings we will most likely be able to solo the exact same quests we could solo before, but it will take us a little longer becuase we have to stop and kill stuff a little more often. I won't go into this in detail, becuase I kind of like it to stay the way it is. Chains might matter if you are trying to solo certain raids, and soloing epics might be another deal as well. But I and the other 99,5% of the gaming population that are never gonna have the skills or toons to even try that frankly don't care if someone is doing it, and they're just as likely to be doing it with an arcane caster anyways.

The alleged game-breaking abuse of the Leap of Faith simply does not exist in day to day DDO. The only place I've seen it used like that is when kiting shadows or Suulo in ToD, and an arcane caster seems to be much preferred for the shadows anyway. Despite being quite wingless.

It's not that this change "cripples" FvS that's upsetting people, it's that there is no understandable motivation for any change at all*. They don't see the problem, because the problem is not there. And once you've nerfed something it's never gonna be unnerfed. Just look at rangers. I'm not saying this in itself is enough to make me stop paying for DDO, but a change this poorly motivated is certainly a tick on the counter.

*Caveat: There is a quite understandable motivation for a change to Divine Punishment, as i think many would agree.

[budalic]

They suck with broken wings, i played my fvs only for this ignoring my cleric, but now i do not give a ball about playing either, because they are similar, you know what cleric in my point of view is better now.

*cough*Angel of Venegnance*cough*