Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[pHo3nix]

No not yes exactly. My point is a good dm often limits the uses of abilities. If you wanna get all technical you are newfound to these wings and they make you tired as your body hasn't adjusted to them yet so you can only fly short distances and only 5 times per hour.

If a DM has to limit his players abilities he's not a good DM

There's no need for a fvs body to adjust to something that is natural like there's no need for birds to adjust for their wings

This is like DA, instead of finding a nice way to stop people from zerging they just stop you with an arbitrary mechanic (you can still zerg but it's way more annoying )

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Words.

To "limit" means one thing, and to "rip out of the hands" means something else entirely.

You have an uncanny ability to focus on minor exaggerations rather than the actual point being discussed.

Situations that are fun and not at all game breaking are being significantly limited, and that is a bad thing. Also, if wings are being limited in how often they can be used, then there is no reason to also double the SP cost. The SP cost should be removed instead if they are going through with this.

[Flugzeug]

Nor am I paid by Turbine, and as Leloric noted in an earlier and just quoted post, some of the very best players in this game play and call the FvS class the easy button of DDO, and there's a reason for that., because it is BY far the most over-powered accross the board clas in DDO right now.... And yes I do play one... Although, I haven't really bothered to ever clsoe to finishing her yet...

Ok, they are powerful. My main character is one. They are not the easy button anymore than a barbarian with 1000 hp and 1000pt crits on a epic sos. My fvs with a epic sos and claw set doesn't come near the dps of my barbarian with an unfinished lit2, and my fvs has a 36 strength, 38 with yugo, 44 with titan's grip, etc, etc...

Ok, maybe you're talking about a casting fvs not melee like mine. Well, my wizard and my sorcerer can do everything your favored soul can do. Some things faster, some things slower, but very much on par. I doubt anyone whether they are 6 yr veterans of this game or 1 year veterans would say a favored soul is better than my 3rd life wizard with 5 piece epic abashai set, 650 hp, 2300sp, 43 necro and 42 enchantment...without yugo pots.

Now then, if the unlimited use of wings are the defining and only difference between a FvS and a Cleric in DDO and that's how you see it.. OK then... But I think that's very closed minded... But to each their own... Well you know I did cut 24 seconds off my run out to ADQ last night using wings.. So I guess

That is not the only defining features...favored soul gets higher save progression, DR, +2 cha, wings, an at-will spell for capstone (all of which are quite poor in my opinion: shield spell? maybe if I could cast it on the entire party....unlimited cure light wounds? maybe if it could be affected by things that affect healing...the cure light spell hits me for 100, the cure light capstone does 40...big difference, enough to make capstone CLW a waste, etc)

Those are all of the things that are good for a favored soul. If fvs is better than cleric, than wings are not the reason other than convenience. some people prefer convenience even if it's a disadvantage.

My first character ever was and still is a cleric. He's level 20. His heals hit so hard because of radiant servant, that cure light wounds will do 500 often. He has a high crit chance and crit multiplier for heals. He can use 15 aura bursts per rest and that's first life...if I ever TR him he would have about 20 auras/bursts/divine vitalities per rest. Turn undead is actually useful in a few quests, but not too many. still a perk tho. My cleric has 2256 sp and he runs out of sp less often than my fvs with 2854 sp. His heals are cheap and hit hard. My cleric can use implosion very well, even in epics now. Destruction and Harm are also spells I love on my cleric which my favored soul cannot fit in. (I would have to drop cure moderate wounds mass, blade barrier, or heal to get harm).

Clerics are far from being inferior even with fvs wings as they are now. I still would recommend a slight buff in the capstone of clerics. Divine Intercession can be useful, but +2 to wisdom would be nice or something to that effect. If favored souls need a nerf, it's because the +2 cha in the capstone is nice and that should be taken out or give clerics +2 wisdom.

It's like raising taxes in New York City because Los Angeles is in debt. What did New Yorkers do to deserve that?

[mute_mayhem]

an at-will spell for capstone (all of which are quite poor in my opinion: shield spell? maybe if I could cast it on the entire party....unlimited cure light wounds? maybe if it could be affected by things that affect healing...the cure light spell hits me for 100, the cure light capstone does 40...big difference, enough to make capstone CLW a waste, etc)

Lolwut?

Have you ever tried to use the capstone with things that boost healing?

I've hit high healing amp tanks for over 400 with my capstone cure light.

I've healed a Horoth tank on hard using just my capstone cure light and a half dozen heal scrolls.

[mournbladereigns]

Its a shame wind dance is going to get nerfed as a result of favored souls causing problems.

The cooldown is 6 seconds now, which is already noticably longer than the favored soul cooldown, and sorcerer's kiting abilities are already mitigated greatly by the lack of bladebarrier, as well as reliance eladar's surge for really effectively using this strategy. Many more mob are immune to electric damage (sorjek, stormreaver and demon queen just to name a few). Also with the exception of warforged most sorcerers lack the quickened self healing abilities that favored souls use in this sort of kiting.

Seriously lets not throw out blanket nerfs on things that aren't out of control. Work the problems from their source.

lololol

**** radical FvS. I'm sure the Monk's would speak up about the Dev's stealing abundant step and giving it to the FvS, but they'd probably get nerfed too if the monks said anything.. And they're just hoping that the new alchemical handwraps aren't bugged. U11 Winner, Monks!

[muffinlad]

Although it's stupid to limit the use of wings at all in public and probably explorer areas, I'm honestly much more upset about the increase in SP cost to use the wings than I am about limiting the ability to spam them. Raising the SP cost was something being considered BEFORE they got the idea to change it to a hard cap with regenerating charges. Doubling the cost doesn't do anything to prevent people from being able to kite - it simply discourages people from using the wings at all. You know, the most fun part about FvS - that's what it discourages you from using.

Some people shrug it off. "5 sp, 10 sp, who cares," they say. I care. I already try to limit my wing use at 5 sp when I'm soloing. Please roll back this nerf - it's unnecessary and does nothing to help the "problem" that has been outlined.

But in reality, I would much rather just have chains disable wing use than have the ability itself changed at all.

Stanley, it's a shame, but Turbine is famous for overkill when changing something, making it X and Y, when X was clearly more than enough.

Regards,

muffinshrug

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Stanley, it's a shame, but Turbine is famous for overkill when changing something, making it X and Y, when X was clearly more than enough.

Regards,

muffinshrug

I know. I really wish they would learn though. Just because they think the pendulum is a little bit to the left doesn't mean they have to swing it way over to the right - they could try stopping it in the middle first, for once.

[smatt]

Ok, they are powerful. My main character is one. They are not the easy button anymore than a barbarian with 1000 hp and 1000pt crits on a epic sos. My fvs with a epic sos and claw set doesn't come near the dps of my barbarian with an unfinished lit2, and my fvs has a 36 strength, 38 with yugo, 44 with titan's grip, etc, etc...

Ok, maybe you're talking about a casting fvs not melee like mine. Well, my wizard and my sorcerer can do everything your favored soul can do. Some things faster, some things slower, but very much on par. I doubt anyone whether they are 6 yr veterans of this game or 1 year veterans would say a favored soul is better than my 3rd life wizard with 5 piece epic abashai set, 650 hp, 2300sp, 43 necro and 42 enchantment...without yugo pots.



That is not the only defining features...favored soul gets higher save progression, DR, +2 cha, wings, an at-will spell for capstone (all of which are quite poor in my opinion: shield spell? maybe if I could cast it on the entire party....unlimited cure light wounds? maybe if it could be affected by things that affect healing...the cure light spell hits me for 100, the cure light capstone does 40...big difference, enough to make capstone CLW a waste, etc)

Those are all of the things that are good for a favored soul. If fvs is better than cleric, than wings are not the reason other than convenience. some people prefer convenience even if it's a disadvantage.

My first character ever was and still is a cleric. He's level 20. His heals hit so hard because of radiant servant, that cure light wounds will do 500 often. He has a high crit chance and crit multiplier for heals. He can use 15 aura bursts per rest and that's first life...if I ever TR him he would have about 20 auras/bursts/divine vitalities per rest. Turn undead is actually useful in a few quests, but not too many. still a perk tho. My cleric has 2256 sp and he runs out of sp less often than my fvs with 2854 sp. His heals are cheap and hit hard. My cleric can use implosion very well, even in epics now. Destruction and Harm are also spells I love on my cleric which my favored soul cannot fit in. (I would have to drop cure moderate wounds mass, blade barrier, or heal to get harm).

Clerics are far from being inferior even with fvs wings as they are now. I still would recommend a slight buff in the capstone of clerics. Divine Intercession can be useful, but +2 to wisdom would be nice or something to that effect. If favored souls need a nerf, it's because the +2 cha in the capstone is nice and that should be taken out or give clerics +2 wisdom.

It's like raising taxes in New York City because Lo

Too long sorry.. But you are s Angeles is in debt. What did New Yorkers do to deserve that?

I'm impressed with your huge acomplishments, you're obvisouyl impressed with yourself enough to go on and on about how YOU did this and YOu did that ... None of that has anything to do with what I said..... You try to say a barb is more powerful or an easy button like a FvS that can have at least decent DP, HEAL them selves indefinately with the right gear, cast 1k-2k DP even as a splash, self buff fly all over etc etc etc... ? Really?? Really... All the rest is cool and all..... Nerf is nerf... This ain't a big one.. Now if it bothers people cool, if the way they have fun with a FvS is bouncing around with wings constantly that's cool too. In my opinion it's a pretty big leap to call this a class destroying nerf... Not even close.. In the end as with all the other nerfs int his game.. Meh who cares... Play or don't .. We've been playing with all kinds of class defining feats and PRE's for years... But it is the end of the world!

Now whether or not a FvS is ALWAYS the most powerful class or not....... Thah's for each individual to decide... But IMO they are But they aren't the only class nor are they the most fun for the other 90% of the games population...

[Angelus_dead]

Telling someone that they're mistaken is not insulting them.

That is incorrect, as a look at this thread illustrates.

Simple math shows that they are indeed ripping a class-defining feature out of the hands of FvS's. For years now, FvS's have been able to wing every three seconds. Now, FvS's can wing every three seconds for about 30 seconds, and then their wings go on a 15 second timer. That's the math.

If one accepts such arbitrarily and comically over-specific definitions of a "class defining feature", then it would be impossible for the developers to correctly adjust their classes. Anything at all could count as breaking a defining feature for someone.

The idea that the value of an FVS relies not just on the possession and use of a wing leap, but on being able to repeat that leap 10 times per minute on and on is laughable on its face. Leap of Faith was obviously never supposed to be a strong feature, so the level of attachment put on it indicates it was accidently overpowered.

What was once an effectively permanent feature of the FvS has been reduced to emergency use.

That is obviously untrue, as a glance at any FVS of level 1 to 16 will show you. According to your reasoning, the FVS class doesn't even start until level 17.

That's another indication that the feature has needed a major nerf since the beginning.

[voodoogroves]

If one accepts such arbitrarily and comically over-specific definitions of a "class defining feature", then it would be impossible for the developers to correctly adjust their classes. Anything at all could count as breaking a defining feature for someone.

The idea that the value of an FVS relies not just on the possession and use of a wing leap, but on being able to repeat that leap 10 times per minute on and on is laughable on its face. Leap of Faith was obviously never supposed to be a strong feature, so the level of attachment put on it indicates it was accidently overpowered.


That is obviously untrue, as a glance at any FVS of level 1 to 16 will show you. According to your reasoning, the FVS class doesn't even start until level 17.

Agree with you; I personally still will feel the impact.

That's another indication that the feature has needed a major nerf since the beginning.

How so? Don't fall into your own trap w/ arbitrary comedy / etc.

[Flugzeug]

Lolwut?

Have you ever tried to use the capstone with things that boost healing?

I've hit high healing amp tanks for over 400 with my capstone cure light.

I've healed a Horoth tank on hard using just my capstone cure light and a half dozen heal scrolls.

Well, not sure what's going on then. With the 30% heal amp from claw gloves, 20% from ToD ring, superior ardor vi active, and whatnot, the capstone only hits for 40. If I take off all of my heal amp items, it stays the same. maybe it's bugged? I'm not sure. All I know, it stayed at 40 no matter what amount of heal amp I had and whether or not I had ardor or devotion, etc.

[Flugzeug]

I'm impressed with your huge acomplishments, you're obvisouyl impressed with yourself enough to go on and on about how YOU did this and YOu did that ... None of that has anything to do with what I said..... You try to say a barb is more powerful or an easy button like a FvS that can have at least decent DP, HEAL them selves indefinately with the right gear, cast 1k-2k DP even as a splash, self buff fly all over etc etc etc... ? Really?? Really... All the rest is cool and all..... Nerf is nerf... This ain't a big one.. Now if it bothers people cool, if the way they have fun with a FvS is bouncing around with wings constantly that's cool too. In my opinion it's a pretty big leap to call this a class destroying nerf... Not even close.. In the end as with all the other nerfs int his game.. Meh who cares... Play or don't .. We've been playing with all kinds of class defining feats and PRE's for years... But it is the end of the world!

Now whether or not a FvS is ALWAYS the most powerful class or not....... Thah's for each individual to decide... But IMO they are But they aren't the only class nor are they the most fun for the other 90% of the games population...

I'm talking about my favored soul and what I do because that's what this thread is about, right? Favored souls. You claim they are the most powerful class in DDO and tons of awesome players agree that they are the best. Well, I disagree and I'm using my experiences to back that up. My wizard is the most powerful character I have. You know, when I leveled him up I took the expeditious retreat spell and I used it all the time until I got haste, and then I blew lots of spell points doing haste even when I don't need to. Maybe I'm OCD, or maybe it's because with multiple real life jobs and not a huge amount of free time, I like to make the most out of my time. Whether it's a sprint boost that gets me somewhere faster, 17 cleric/3monk that gets me somewhere faster, pure monk, wizard that overspams haste, favored soul leap of faith. I just wish my favored soul could cast the expeditious retreat spell....then he'd be an overpowered beast of convenience until I toss striding on him.

Your wording in your previous post implied favored souls were the top of the food chain and need to be nerfed. Your post that I"m quoting says differently, that based on situations they could be the best and I agree. There are times when a monk is best and there are times when a rogue is best, etc. Just today a guildmate of mine was telling me how happy he was to solo amrath with his rogue for the first time.

You say FVS is an easy button because of divine punishment, indefinite self heal, and self buff? and because of this you agree with wings being nerfed? Ha. Well, divine punishment should be nerfed. That's easy.

Indefinite self heal? Well, I have the torc, a dr of 37 when shield blocking with my wf fvs, I have con-opp gs item and I have never been able to make a tough raid boss or epic enemy give me more sp than I use to heal myself. I would always run out of sp. With SP pots sure, I can self heal forever....but I refuse to spend real life money on SP pots. It would make the game too easy and boring and I think that would be an easy button. But any class can do that which has spell points. The LoF shouldn't take the nerf because of SP pots. You could also build a character with UMD and heal amp and indefinitely self heal with heal scrolls. Combine that with better melee dmg than a fvs and all you're missing is self buffs...but unless soloing or without guild ship full of buffs, who needs self buffs?

[mute_mayhem]

Well, not sure what's going on then. With the 30% heal amp from claw gloves, 20% from ToD ring, superior ardor vi active, and whatnot, the capstone only hits for 40. If I take off all of my heal amp items, it stays the same. maybe it's bugged? I'm not sure. All I know, it stayed at 40 no matter what amount of heal amp I had and whether or not I had ardor or devotion, etc.

Ever hear of these great new things called Meta-magic feats?

They do wonderful things for your spells.

You might want to look into getting them if you're playing a FvS.

[Flugzeug]

Ever hear of these great new things called Meta-magic feats?

They do wonderful things for your spells.

You might want to look into getting them if you're playing a FvS.

Haha. What is this word you use? Meta-what? No way, I spend all of my feats for cool things like whirlwind which helps me fly like a tornado.


Seriously...do you think I would have been playing this long, read the forums as much as I do, talk about the game at a level different from a new player, and I would never use metamagics?

I have quicken, empower healing, and maximize on one of my healers, and my other has empower as well. So I'm afraid to say your advice and your tone of voice don't fit this conversation.

[Faent]

That is incorrect, as a look at this thread illustrates.

You're wrong. And that's not an insult.

No doubt there are ways to tell people they are wrong while also insulting them. But merely telling someone that they are wrong (when they are) is not an insult. It helps them and benefits them (though frequently only when accompanied with a polite explanation of why they are wrong). On your incorrect view, helping someone by correcting them would be to insult them. That's obviously not right.

To hold that correcting someone must involve insulting them is to traffic in linguistic and conceptual confusion or to conflate an insult disguised as a correction for a correction simpliciter. Both are mistakes.

[mute_mayhem]

Haha. What is this word you use? Meta-what? No way, I spend all of my feats for cool things like whirlwind which helps me fly like a tornado.


Seriously...do you think I would have been playing this long, read the forums as much as I do, talk about the game at a level different from a new player, and I would never use metamagics?

I have quicken, empower healing, and maximize on one of my healers, and my other has empower as well. So I'm afraid to say your advice and your tone of voice don't fit this conversation.

As always, my attempts at sarcasm fail miserably.

Whatever, in case you didn't know, meta-magics affect your capstone cure light.

Is that better advice, mate?

[Faent]

If one accepts such arbitrarily and comically over-specific definitions of a "class defining feature", then it would be impossible for the developers to correctly adjust their classes. Anything at all could count as breaking a defining feature for someone.

I didn't provide a definition of "class defining feature", so I couldn't have offered an arbitrarily comic or over-specific definition of a "class defining feature". You're confusing a definition of a term (in this case, the term "class-defining feature") with something that satisfies any adequate definition of the term (in this case, wings).

The idea that the value of an FVS relies not just on the possession and use of a wing leap, but on being able to repeat that leap 10 times per minute on and on is laughable on its face. Leap of Faith was obviously never supposed to be a strong feature, so the level of attachment put on it indicates it was accidently overpowered.

Feel free to throw around the term "overpowered" as much as you like. It's still the case that lots and lots of leaping has been, for years, a class-defining feature of the FvS.

That is obviously untrue, as a glance at any FVS of level 1 to 16 will show you. According to your reasoning, the FVS class doesn't even start until level 17. That's another indication that the feature has needed a major nerf since the beginning.

Your last sentence doesn't follow from anything you've said. And it's false that according to my reasoning, the FvS class doesn't start until level 17. You seem to be assuming that any class-defining feature must be possessed by a class from level 1 on. If you reflect for a moment, you'll see that this presupposition is absurd.

[Qezuzu]

"Hey! Nice wings, I want a pair!"

"Well...
...then why don't you GROW A PAIR?"

[dragon2fire]

I just feel like i should chime in here you guys are weakening my favorite class. I have gone form playing ddo every day and many hours a day to barely touching it since i found out you are making my favorite class weaker. The wings are not that op not compared to some things that others can do. What the wings are is fun plan and simple and you are taking away my fun by nerfing them. Game becomes less fun i move on to a new game that's my two cents.

[Angelus_dead]

You seem to be assuming that any class-defining feature must be possessed by a class from level 1 on. If you reflect for a moment, you'll see that this presupposition is absurd.

Quoted for emphasis. You proved my point.

To hold that correcting someone must involve insulting them is to traffic in linguistic and conceptual confusion

I've never espoused such a position; certainly not in this thread.

The statement I made was entirely different: ", the amount of irrational griping in this thread would make the developers very unlikely to say anything about it in the near-term future. If they say something then it will come off as an insult to those players who are complaining here".