Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[smatt]

Small? This is a huge nerf to the fun of playing the fvs class. Fvs wings shouldn't have limited use: you got wings, you can use them whenever you want: they could not work while chained, and that would be ok, but limiting their use to x charges is bad. They shouldn't even cost sp. At lvl 17 you got wings on your back, it's not like some sort of ability you got X time per day.

Hmm, you're still not giving consderation to somethings the change is be implemented for to stop.... Are they widespread? Not as much as they could be I suppose, but they are out there and moving thorugh more and more... If I were on THEIR side of the fence I would've done done this a while back, they let if go too long and allowed to many people to use them in certain ways. But just as with many other things of this nature, often times they let a few people benefit GREATLY for far too long from certain situations and then when the masses start to catch on it bat time.... Just the way it is... Do things fast and early..... Before the slugger comes out to play...


I'm just saying that what's apparent, isn't always why a nerf/change is happening.... That's all I'm sayin'..

My FvS will be fine, jsut as with oh so many other nerfsw over the last 5 years.... Meh... Sure bouncing around is fun and all... But if that's the ONLY fun you have in this game... Well...

[Faent]

That is exactly untrue. It's not like the DDO devs have a tradition of explaining design choices to the players, so the fact that they're not explaining right now is simply their default and expected behavior.

That doesn't make it good behavior.

In fact, the amount of irrational griping in this thread would make the developers very unlikely to say anything about it in the near-term future. If they say something then it will come off as an insult to those players who are complaining here, and those players will get more mad, regardless of if the reasons are correct and sensible or not.

The devs probably could've avoided being in that position if they had talked more about design topics earlier on, but at this moment for this topic, that's the position they're in: it'd be radioactive to the touch.

I don't understand this at all. Why in the world would the devs presenting their reasons for making this change come off as insulting? I think you just made that up.

[pHo3nix]

Hmm, you're still not giving consderation to somethings the change is be implemented for to stop.... Are they widespread? Not as much as they could be I suppose, but they are out there and moving thorugh more and more... If I were on THEIR side of the fence I would've done done this a while back, they let if go too long and allowed to many people to use them in certain ways. But just as with many other things of this nature, often times they let a few people benefit GREATLY for far too long from certain situations and then when the masses start to catch on it bat time.... Just the way it is... Do things fast and early..... Before the slugger comes out to play...


I'm just saying that what's apparent, isn't always why a nerf/change is happening.... That's all I'm sayin'..

My FvS will be fine, jsut as with oh so many other nerfsw over the last 5 years.... Meh... Sure bouncing around is fun and all... But if that's the ONLY fun you have in this game... Well...

I'm not paid by turbine, it's not my job to find a way to make a fight challenging without nerfing class abilities that were working well. Fvs is, with monk, one of the most fun classes to play cause of its great mobility; remove it and it's just a cleric with more sp and less known spells.

[Faent]

LOL and why is it suspicious? Why do they "Have to" explain anything? They've decided that for whatever reason they don't like the way wings are working out.... It's likely to be for far mroe reasons than the stated one, wing kiting... But for them to talk about all the OTHER reasons.... Well there's a reason for that, just like there's a reason WE can't talk about them either

They don't "have to" explain anything, but they should. In the first place, and if they have good reasons, they might be able to get more folks on board. In the second place, it would give us opportunities to help suggest other ways for fixing the perceived problems. Finally, it's just courteous to explain why you're ripping a class-defining feature out of the hands of so many people. Call it common decency.

These "other" reasons you want to suppose exist are called "exploits". It's simply false that wings are being changed because of any wing-related exploits. And it's simply false that the devs can't explain why they're changing wings because to do so would reveal some wing-related exploit. You're making this up.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Although it's stupid to limit the use of wings at all in public and probably explorer areas, I'm honestly much more upset about the increase in SP cost to use the wings than I am about limiting the ability to spam them. Raising the SP cost was something being considered BEFORE they got the idea to change it to a hard cap with regenerating charges. Doubling the cost doesn't do anything to prevent people from being able to kite - it simply discourages people from using the wings at all. You know, the most fun part about FvS - that's what it discourages you from using.

Some people shrug it off. "5 sp, 10 sp, who cares," they say. I care. I already try to limit my wing use at 5 sp when I'm soloing. Please roll back this nerf - it's unnecessary and does nothing to help the "problem" that has been outlined.

But in reality, I would much rather just have chains disable wing use than have the ability itself changed at all.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't understand this at all. Why in the world would the devs presenting their reasons for making this change come off as insulting? I think you just made that up.

It would appear insulting because it would involve telling a lot of people that they are seriously mistaken about something they've taken strong positions on.

[LordPiglet]

The bigger problem was kiting the boss who is super fast and the hounds and having other casters/dotters dps while any melee just stand and watch the show. This is the best way to do the raid by far as it's easy and poses the least threat of failure.

Shades suggestions are what to do if not kiting everything. If the kiting of everything isn't put in check then shade's suggestions would never come into play and melees would never find a way into the raid.

Leap of Faith has two uses really, first is to move around faster and generally is nothing more than a convienence factor. The second is to continually kite extremely dangerous mobs allowing fs to continually avoid danger while using bb/dp to dps down the mob. Sad that the second funcion which does need to be reeled in may prevent some of the versatility of the first but sometimes that happens. Get a pendant of time and run around everywhere liek the other classes do.

Some of the very best players in this game play fs and refer to them as the "easy button." Why? Because of Leap of Faith.

Changing a Boss to throw more chains around is counterproductive to all the other classes and forces them to eat the brunt of the changes. Sometimes you just got to sit up and take your nerf bat swings like a man because they are warranted and then just say "thank you sir may I have another"

Why do we kite and dot? Maybe the devs need to look into that and see why that has become a relevant tactic?

Doting is faster sure, kiting no, because then you're not letting melee dps in on the action. We're kiting because for all intensive purpose, Devs have killed threat generating ac tanks. Sure the changes they're making will help them maintain threat, but they're still not enough.

When an 89 AC tank is getting hit 70% of the time (as I recall that was the numbers listed in the thread from test) on normal, then how, what are we supposed to do, especially with a boss what can debuff hitpoints and healing? When we can't get an effective AC, so we have to swap multiple tanks. This puts more strain on the "healers". Playing a heal bot is not enjoyable, at least not to me and not to many of my friends. I have several friends who ran heal bots, they started playing with their abilities and now cast more on their fvs and enjoy it a lot more then just standing around and healing.

This isn't a class or FvS problem, this is a game design problem. The devs are trying to adjust content for the highest level of player. While I understand they need to, at the same time, you can't kill fun for an average player. That's a poor design decision. I read an interesting fact on a different game I play, somewhere around 80% of the characters never make it past level 7 (cap is 50). Somewhere around 10% of the players had a capped character. I wonder what those numbers are like for DDO?

Fact is, I rarely use my wings in quest more then two or three hops in a row. When I do DoT, I'm either turtled up, or I'm doing melee and and healing. I have done the DoT wing kiting and well, it was boring and a pain and frankly, I don't like or want to do it. I'm building my FvS to tank shadows in ToD and not kite them. Traveling certain areas, like an explorer area that I have to go through, or if I have to travel backwards through a cleared area of a quest(like talking to the speaking stones in Von5), I'm winging the whole way, just for the speed of travel. Now they want to limit my use, and increase the cost.

They can't even give use a full pre, let alone the Divine Avenger that they have done work on (and showed to be more popular in the forums). But they can hit our wings and our AoV auras? Honestly, give some diversity to the class and finish the pre's (same for clerics to). That way we can build how we want and not be all somewhat forced to use the same thing. Open up options, give us a way to play with more options and not the same stuff. Having to bring 3 tanks to cycle through isn't really an option, it's just a bigger pain for the "healer", whether that be divines, or arcanes reconstructing people.

[Angelus_dead]

explain why you're ripping a class-defining feature out of the hands of so many people

But they're not doing that, and they're not even doing anything that could plausibly be confused with that.

So you see, given that people have that unfounded belief about the nature of the change, it would be extremely difficult for the devs to say anything about it without making them even madder.

[pHo3nix]

But they're not doing that, and they're not even doing anything that could plausibly be confused with that.

No? Fvs wings are like dragon wings, they are a part of their body. It's like limiting the uses of legs for walking people.

[Angelus_dead]

No? Fvs wings are like dragon wings, they are a part of their body. It's like limiting the uses of legs for walking people.

Words.

To "limit" means one thing, and to "rip out of the hands" means something else entirely.

[smatt]

they Don't "have To" Explain Anything, But They Should. In The First Place, And If They Have Good Reasons, They Might Be Able To Get More Folks On Board. In The Second Place, It Would Give Us Opportunities To Help Suggest Other Ways For Fixing The Perceived Problems. Finally, It's Just Courteous To Explain Why You're Ripping A Class-defining Feature Out Of The Hands Of So Many People. Call It Common Decency.

These "other" Reasons You Want To Suppose Exist Are Called "exploits". It's Simply False That Wings Are Being Changed Because Of Any Wing-related Exploits. And It's Simply False That The Devs Can't Explain Why They're Changing Wings Because To Do So Would Reveal Some Wing-related Exploit. You're Making This Up.

Lol, Ok...

[smatt]

I'm not paid by turbine, it's not my job to find a way to make a fight challenging without nerfing class abilities that were working well. Fvs is, with monk, one of the most fun classes to play cause of its great mobility; remove it and it's just a cleric with more sp and less known spells.

Nor am I paid by Turbine, and as Leloric noted in an earlier and just quoted post, some of the very best players in this game play and call the FvS class the easy button of DDO, and there's a reason for that., because it is BY far the most over-powered accross the board clas in DDO right now.... And yes I do play one... Although, I haven't really bothered to ever clsoe to finishing her yet...

Now then, if the unlimited use of wings are the defining and only difference between a FvS and a Cleric in DDO and that's how you see it.. OK then... But I think that's very closed minded... But to each their own... Well you know I did cut 24 seconds off my run out to ADQ last night using wings.. So I guess

On another note...


Yet another BIG mistake the Devs are making in DDO these days are too many things that give others the ability to use class specific features such as wing clickies, PRE wings etc etc... Too man easy to get clickies etc... Rare loot shoudl be far mroe rae than it is, as it ws in the old days... Too many easy end reard BTA itmes.. etc etc... They should work on improving and fixing the older stuff instead of creating baskets full of new stuff that destroys the individualistic abilites of particular classes.

[LeLoric]

No? Fvs wings are like dragon wings, they are a part of their body. It's like limiting the uses of legs for walking people.

Think of it as your wings make you tired as xendrik's air density is magically heavier than other places. Therefore if you are going to continually use your fly ability then you will exhaust use of them.

Any good dm would find a creative way to limit the use of something players were abusing (if not completely removing the abusive ability/item). Turbine did this.

[pHo3nix]

Words.

To "limit" means one thing, and to "rip out of the hands" means something else entirely.

Putting limits on things that were unlimited and were working fine is a bad move. It's like DA, instead of finding better solutions they just put an arbitrary limit to our gameplay.

[Faent]

It would appear insulting because it would involve telling a lot of people that they are seriously mistaken about something they've taken strong positions on.

Telling someone that they're mistaken is not insulting them. In fact, it's quite the opposite. It's to engage with them and their position and to demonstrate that you consider discussion with them worth your time and effort. It's ignoring people that is insulting. You got this backwards.

But they're not doing that, and they're not even doing anything that could plausibly be confused with that.

Simple math shows that they are indeed ripping a class-defining feature out of the hands of FvS's. For years now, FvS's have been able to wing every three seconds. Now, FvS's can wing every three seconds for about 30 seconds, and then their wings go on a 15 second timer. That's the math.

Going from permanently being able to wing every three seconds to being able to keep this up for a pathetic thirty seconds before your wings are on a 15 second timer is precisely what I said it was: ripping a class-defining feature out of the hands of the FvS. They've taken a chainsaw to FvS's wings. What was once an effectively permanent feature of the FvS has been reduced to emergency use.

Take, for example, the runout to Chains of Flame. In the past, a FvS could use their wing ability on that runout between 80 and 120 times (assuming 4 to 6 minutes). Now they can use it a whole 19 - 27 times. As you can see from the simple math, wings have gone to about 1/5 of their previous usefulness.

[pHo3nix]

Think of it as your wings make you tired as xendrik's air density is magically heavier than other places. Therefore if you are going to continually use your fly ability then you will exhaust use of them.

Any good dm would find a creative way to limit the use of something players were abusing (if not completely removing the abusive ability/item). Turbine did this.

Yes exactly, a good DM would create encounters in which wings wouldn't be so "game breaking" as some of you guys think

[LeLoric]

Yes exactly, a good DM would create encounters in which wings wouldn't be so "game breaking" as some of you guys think

No not yes exactly. My point is a good dm often limits the uses of abilities. If you wanna get all technical you are newfound to these wings and they make you tired as your body hasn't adjusted to them yet so you can only fly short distances and only 5 times per hour.

[pHo3nix]

Now then, if the unlimited use of wings are the defining and only difference between a FvS and a Cleric in DDO and that's how you see it.. OK then...

The wings are the only thing fvs got that make them more fun than clerics This nerf is a gameplay nerf, not something like reducing the DR from 10 to 5, or the resist from 10 to 5. If it passes to live it will be probably time for me to try to roll a cleric, never done 1 cause they have no wings

[protokon]

The wings are the only thing fvs got that make them more fun than clerics This nerf is a gameplay nerf, not something like reducing the DR from 10 to 5, or the resist from 10 to 5. If it passes to live it will be probably time for me to try to roll a cleric, never done 1 cause they have no wings

yep time for me to TR back into a cleric from my fvs .

[DanteEnFuego]

Add me to the "only Nerf, if at all, where it is being abused" camp. Maybe I suck and don't play the game well, but I like to "Bring the Punishment" in the middle of the melees--ground/pound/heal. Run and kite? Sounds like a disgrace to my diety!

Now if I could quit trying to hit my wings when jumping off high places with my rogue...