Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Samadhi]

Absolutely.

As people have been saying for (X) pages; wings are irrelevant here.

They are destroying our fun - for absolutely NO gain.

End of story.

Neg rep for this?? Someone really needs a better use of their time (from the guy posting at work :P )

[Taryana]

My fvs is pure healer with very modest offensive spell choice and damage. My wings are the only thing i have for my own survivability, which means the health of the entire party. Why am I being punished by wing cropping? If you wanted to nerf the superiority of the battle builds, you could at least add some enhancements line for wing cooldowns...

[TheRealest]

Dear Dev Team,


I'll preface this by saying: I don't have a FvS of any significant level. I have never used Leap of Faith, but I will admit to enjoying Abundant Step on my Monk quite a lot.



Changing Leap of Faith would be a mistake, Devs. A really significant one. If kiting is a problem, figure out a solution on the monster's end of things - not by altering player abilities that have been with the class since you introduced it.

Additionally, this possible change would cause player unrest that would rival the levels that would be unleashed if a khopesh change was announced. Instead of changing khopesh, the Dev team made the correct decision to give the other exotic weapons some incentives.

Now, I say this only because the weapon profile of the khopesh does not follow PnP versions of the weapon. However, the alterations were kept instead of nerfing the weapon in order not to provoke a player revolt. Other prospects to balance out the game were created - and I think they're good ones.


Please pursue other prospects to any perceived issues you, the Dev Team, feel is the problem with LoF kiting. Otherwise - might as well change the khopesh too and at the same time. Might as well make as deep a cut as you can to maximize the amount of player-rage that would be the result of changing either of these aspects of the game that y'all put in, and have kept in for years.


This is from the viewpoint of a player who has never used Leap of Faith, and probably won't ever.


Thanks,
Mem.

Always enjoy your posts mem, very well written sir.

[brolios]

i dont write much in the forums but wanted to leave my opinion.

FVS are a very flexible class. i have a Warforged FVS. his DPS is below that of a fighter. Even a half geared barbarian can do more than 3 times my damage.
but i do thank. i worked (alot) to get as much threat generation gear as i can, so i can make sulomades stay on me, with one condition. the whole party has to accept my role, and everyone has to take out gear. yes, i tank, because the barbarian dosnt use his best gear, because they agree that i will. in a real race, i cant hold aggro for more than 2 iterations of the aggro system

My healing is almost non existant. my own "heal" spell hits me for 120 (without crit), its enough to solo (better than a potion), but with alot of the content i still carry a cleric hireling. I traded my healing and spellcasting power to get melee damage.
i have seen people in this post say that a FVS can make melee obsolete, and that is not true.
my FVS has 50% damage output of a real melee class, and i traded that damage, to get spellcasting.

So, i do less damage, and i cant cover the healer spot.

Kiting is not inherently bad. and wings help do that. if wings make kiting trivial in some quest, try to change that particular quest, pls dont change the whole class. wings are fun, super fun outside of quests, but the mana cost makes them a spendable resource inside quests.
Want to solve a particular problem, then change that quest(s).
Think the problem is more than just one or two quests? make a small change, like increasing the cost from 5 to 10. adding 1 or 2 seconds of coold down.
a mayor change will generate rage, valid or not


P&P is based on customization. i can make a cleric and roll him towards DPS, and get more damage than a Fighter, with the added bonus of spellcasting AND preparing spells.
we dont see many of this, because they get squelched and blacklisted because people spect clerics to heal.

i have read very good ideas (in this thread) about how to solve what has been presented as a problem, so i hope the devs take some time to consider them

cheers

[Faent]

this nerf intended to cover up a failed raid concept is pure fail itself.

One point of agreement and one point of disagreement. This nerf is indeed pure fail. But we have no idea why the DEVs decided to nerf wings. In fact, I'm not sure they have any idea why they decided to completely ruin what has been a defining ability of a class for years.

[Flugzeug]

i dont write much in the forums but wanted to leave my opinion.

FVS are a very flexible class. i have a Warforged FVS. his DPS is below that of a fighter. Even a half geared barbarian can do more than 3 times my damage.
but i do thank. i worked (alot) to get as much threat generation gear as i can, so i can make sulomades stay on me, with one condition. the whole party has to accept my role, and everyone has to take out gear. yes, i tank, because the barbarian dosnt use his best gear, because they agree that i will. in a real race, i cant hold aggro for more than 2 iterations of the aggro system

My healing is almost non existant. my own "heal" spell hits me for 120 (without crit), its enough to solo (better than a potion), but with alot of the content i still carry a cleric hireling. I traded my healing and spellcasting power to get melee damage.
i have seen people in this post say that a FVS can make melee obsolete, and that is not true.
my FVS has 50% damage output of a real melee class, and i traded that damage, to get spellcasting.

So, i do less damage, and i cant cover the healer spot.

Kiting is not inherently bad. and wings help do that. if wings make kiting trivial in some quest, try to change that particular quest, pls dont change the whole class. wings are fun, super fun outside of quests, but the mana cost makes them a spendable resource inside quests.
Want to solve a particular problem, then change that quest(s).
Think the problem is more than just one or two quests? make a small change, like increasing the cost from 5 to 10. adding 1 or 2 seconds of coold down.
a mayor change will generate rage, valid or not


P&P is based on customization. i can make a cleric and roll him towards DPS, and get more damage than a Fighter, with the added bonus of spellcasting AND preparing spells.
we dont see many of this, because they get squelched and blacklisted because people spect clerics to heal.

i have read very good ideas (in this thread) about how to solve what has been presented as a problem, so i hope the devs take some time to consider them

cheers

I agree with you that melee favored souls cannot reach the dps of pure melee classes. My warforged favored soul has epic claw set and epic sword of shadow and it is fun, but it doesn't compare to my barb with an unfinished lit2 greensteel.

As for healing, maybe I can give you some ideas. My wf fvs heals himself for 530 hitpoints non-crit and I have 627 hp with all of my hp gear on but without buffs. A melee favored soul should be able to heal just as well as a non-melee favored soul as long as you take the healing enhancements. In my opinion, part of tanking as a favored soul is the ability to heal yourself while tanking (depending on which raid and which boss). If you can't heal yourself well, then that advantage is gone and the paladin/rogue/monk/fighter/barb/etc might be better off as the tank since they have the higher dps advantage. So getting healing amplification items like levik's bracers, dragontouched armor, and epic gloves of the claw will help a lot. Just know that like amounts do not stack but different amounts do stack. So 20% heal amp and 30% heal amp does stack.

I've tanked almost all of the bosses in the game and there's a huge advantage if you can heal yourself well and do melee and spell damage to tank. You should have enough enhancement points to put stuff into healing. It would be really hard to gimp the healing aspect of a favored soul because they (just like clerics) are really good at healing. Even though I took warforged brute fighting 3, wf power attack 3, greatsword specialization 1 & 2, all of the toughness enhancements, the angel of vengeance pre-reqs, I still had enough APs for all of the life magics and healer's friend 1. It really does improve your value to the party I think. it's not required but it's very good.

Make sure you take healers friend 1, and maybe take healer's friend 2. 3 is expensive and I've never taken it. Since my wf fvs has 50% heal amp I don't take healer's friend 2, I only take healer's friend 1.

Carry 2 superior ardor vi clickies, and have them active during all major battles where you will be healing a lot. that's a 75% boost to your heals.

You could take empower, but since empower doesn't affect your heals and you need your heals to hit yourself harder, empower healing might be the better choice. Empower means your heals hit for 150, empower healing means they hit for 50% more. 225.

Take all 4 life magic enhancements and maybe even the crit chance for heals (though I didn't take any healing crit chance enhancements on my fvs). The life magics really help with healing a raid, others, and/or yourself.

This is all opinion, but if you try out some of these ideas I think you'll like them. or maybe you already do most/all of these.

[kitsune_ko]

I had an epiphany tonight that I would like to share...

Unlimited Movement is DDO is overpowered, and abused in combat.

It has come to my attention that some players are taking gross advantage of this ability in-game of unlimited real-time movement; and coupling it with their personal level of reflexes and dexterity skills to create an game imbalace where as they can suffer less damage in-game by using this unlimited "moving" ability as a method of damage avoidance.

As not all players have the same personal level reflexes and dexterity; this unlimited access to "moving" in DDO allows certain players an unfair advantage in combat situations over other players though no fault of their own, and thus obviously needs to be nerfed for the sake of game balance.

I have come up with an innovative system to create a more balanced playing field in DDO and remove the imbalance this unlimited access to real-time "moving" in DDO is creating between players.

I call it "Turned Based Combat".

In "Turn Based Combat", "Turns" are alternated back-and-forth between the players and NPCs; each player is allowed "X" amount of action points to use each turn; and can be used either to move or attack. When these points are fully used; the NPC is then allowed their "Turn" and likewise moves and/or attacks. Combat alternates between these "Turns" until either the players or NPCs are vanquished.

By implementing "Turned Based Combat", all players will be on a level playing field finally. No longer will access to unlimited movement in real time be an unfair advantage to the more skilled players, and a unfair disadvantage to the less dexterious players.

In "Turned Based Combat" all players will be given the same amount of action points to be used per "turn" and thus; any advantage their superior reflexes would have given them is now negated. Likewise; the less dexterious players will now find themselves now on equal footing with other players.

Obviously then, this innovative "Turned Based Combat" would be the far superior combat system to what we currently have. Everyone would finally be equal in combat; and this "Moving" ability abused by so many players will no longer be such an unlimited advantage/disadvantage.

Glad I could help the Dev team diagnose the root problem with combat finally, and I look foward to seeing this much more superior and fair "Turned Based Combat" system implemented in a future update to fix this unbalanced gameplay problem DDO is currently experiencing due to unlimited use of "movement" being used by the players.

Your welcome.

[budalic]

lots of sarcasm

I actually like turn-based combat more than realtime. I know many people would find it odd, but... yeah.

[pHo3nix]

It has come to my attention that some players are taking gross advantage of this ability in-game of unlimited real-time movement; and coupling it with their personal level of reflexes and dexterity skills to create an game imbalace where as they can suffer less damage in-game by using this unlimited "moving" ability as a method of damage avoidance.

I guess you are kidding, but anyway: if you have better reflexes and dexterity skills than me then you should be better and not be crippled cause of me. Or while playing football all players should run at the same lowest speed cause otherwise the faster ones got an advantage?

Players skills should always be rewarded, otherwise there wouldn't be any incentives to become better

IT on wings: they were fine, fun and the most important fvs feature, there was really no need to nerf them.

[GunboatDiplomat]

FFS, Turbine if you can't design a new raid without nerfing one of the most fun class abilities in the game you need to fire your raid designers and hire someone with enough imagination to design said raid a bit differently.

(If you really need to nerf something then nerf Divine Punishment or give it a save for half damage or something.)

[Invalid_50]

FFS, Turbine if you can't design a new raid without nerfing one of the most fun class abilities in the game you need to fire your raid designers and hire someone with enough imagination to design said raid a bit differently.

Amen brother! +1

[Invalid_50]

Neg rep for this?? Someone really needs a better use of their time (from the guy posting at work :P )

+1 then for you sam

[Kovalas]

Wing nerf?

Been off a month as moved house, let the sub run anyway, haven't been checking forums til someone gave me a
heads up my wings might be clipped when i get back, they better not, or my sub will be clipped, permantely.

Sick and tired of building characters that are good, to get them nerfed because there too good......

Kov

[goalfire]

guys lets just keep saying this:
Dont touch wings!

You can change everything else you want to balance the game:
- raid boss with high gravity impedes the use of wings
- raid boss spam polar ray or dots against fvs
- raid boss have light resist/immunity
- chains blocks your leap of faith ability

Devs pick up one of the solutions above (suggested by the player base) and solve the fvs overpowered tanking ability problem

[Flixxer]

Going to repeat my self again, but to me it looks like this:
Turbine: Yes, we developed new spells and added new prestige class for fvs be glad
Players: We don't really need to have a new spell, but prestige class we have waited this for so long! ty Turbine.
Turbine: We developed new raid it is cool, but FVS can use wings and they keep boss agro.
Players: Wait a sec, isn't that because you gave us new damaging spells that keeps boss agro and wings existed before for so long without having a FVS to kite bosses?
Turbine: no, no, no! It is the wings which are too powerful, that is why we gonna nerf them.
Players: Hold on a sec, your opinion is biased, because the ones who were able to complete this run on epic where self sufficient and had an ability to damage, they were FVS with some heavy equipment! and you know why they were able to get so much dps, because you gave us new ability - Divine punishment with crits that go for 1k damage we don't think it is normal, so you know make something remove this new spell, because old FVS without this spell would not be able to hold agro and damage that much.
Turbine: No, no, no! It is da wings! we already nerfed them on lammania, so wait till it comes to live muhahah and yes if you whine that much about divine punishment we also gonna nerf it, so good players thank you for your feedback and comentary!
Players: .......... BS

[Faent]

In two years of play, I cannot recall another serious and unpopular nerf being pushed though so quickly; and for a reason(s) completely unexplained by the Dev team.

It's really beyond time for the devs to man up and present their reasons, if any, for this nerf. It's more than a little odd that they haven't managed to do that yet. In fact, it's downright suspicious.

[Angelus_dead]

It's really beyond time for the devs to man up and present their reasons, if any, for this nerf. It's more than a little odd that they haven't managed to do that yet. In fact, it's downright suspicious.

That is exactly untrue. It's not like the DDO devs have a tradition of explaining design choices to the players, so the fact that they're not explaining right now is simply their default and expected behavior.

In fact, the amount of irrational griping in this thread would make the developers very unlikely to say anything about it in the near-term future. If they say something then it will come off as an insult to those players who are complaining here, and those players will get more mad, regardless of if the reasons are correct and sensible or not.

The devs probably could've avoided being in that position if they had talked more about design topics earlier on, but at this moment for this topic, that's the position they're in: it'd be radioactive to the touch.

[smatt]

It's really beyond time for the devs to man up and present their reasons, if any, for this nerf. It's more than a little odd that they haven't managed to do that yet. In fact, it's downright suspicious.

LOL and why is it suspicious? Why do they "Have to" explain anything? They've decided that for whatever reason they don't like the way wings are working out.... It's likely to be for far mroe reasons than the stated one, wing kiting... But for them to talk about all the OTHER reasons.... Well there's a reason for that, just like there's a reason WE can't talk about them either


As far as nerfs go.. This is perhaps one of the smaller ones that had so many people this up in arms...

I'm just sayin'

[pHo3nix]

As far as nerfs go.. This is perhaps one of the smaller ones that had so many people this up in arms...

Small? This is a huge nerf to the fun of playing the fvs class. Fvs wings shouldn't have limited use: you got wings, you can use them whenever you want: they could not work while chained, and that would be ok, but limiting their use to x charges is bad. They shouldn't even cost sp. At lvl 17 you got wings on your back, it's not like some sort of ability you got X time per day.

[Flugzeug]

I don't even mind the Spell Point Cost....that's one of the reasons that my melee favored soul also has as many spell point items as I have been able to discover...

He has 2854sp or 2825sp or something like that. I created him and gave him lots of extra sp gear that I can switch to melee or hp gear as I use up sp, and I did this so I'd have sp in order to use the wings as needed. I've spent more than a year leveling up and TR'ing and everything, but I've planned on having to use SP for it so I'm fully capable of using sp and not disappointed that I have to use sp for it. I remember reading up on the favored soul before I bought it, to make sure it was worth the money I was spending to get it. A that point is when I found out how the wings worked and I was fine with the design. I doubt I would buy the update 11 favored soul. This charge thing basically is a way of Turbine telling me they don't care how much time I spent, how much money I spent, or how I planned my character over the course of 14 months (my favored soul was created in June of 2010). Since then, many hours, TR's, etc.