Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[abbadon3718]

I know having a class nerfed in fun department sucks, but amount of overreaction in this thread is over 9000. Chill down a bit, please. At any rate, commenting on stuff that I consider rather silly.



Of course, in PnP it was one of most pointless class features written in entire game.

- all examples are from SRD... I didn't even take a look in Spell compedium

Fly spell (note that Cleric with travel domain could also cast it at lvl 5): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm
Wings of flying (item): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...#wingsofFlying

And there is stuff like that all over the splats: Overland flight, Mass Fly, whatever. So, please, better don't involve PnP into this discussion. In PnP, FvS sucked compared to cleric, big time, anyway.



Pay money argument is always silly, especially in terms of classes. 'So, this class is powerful, but you need to pay for it' 'But, I like this class more' 'Then you'll suck, noob!'. Don't go there, please. Not to mention Pay 2 Win arguments that can spring from that. Paid classes should be different and interesting, not OP.



It is unclear why wings were nerfed, really. And I think it's stupid. However, I am very happy that devs aren't nerfing DoTs because of all nerf DoTs not Wings people... It would be rather more damaging to multiple classes.



I think Eladrin said somewhere that it would be quite easy to make chains stop winging, but they want wings to be escape mechanism. But, yeah, perhaps click'n timer was easiest to implement.

EDIT: Didn't some monks say that they want click'n timer too? It would be really nice for devs to make it like that if it would buff the class.

While most of what you say is true you are forgetting a few things. Fly was qiuite common and quite useful in pnp and not uber op. In ddo the best you get is the TERRIBLE version of fly that only the stormreaver can cast on you and its a pita to do ANYTHING while flying. Fly doesn't translate well to ddo because it would break just about any quest. Fvs didnt suck in pnp but they were not the preferred healer. Also in pnp battle clerics ruled and sorcs sucked way more than fvs.

[slimkj]

Because honestly, as a rule of thumb... if there is this kind of complaining after a such a limited nerf... it's a strong indication that the old version was overpowered compared to other character classes.

That's stretching it somewhat.

The reason they shouldn't be taken away is that many people enjoyed the wings. I would contest it was because they were overpowered. For you to assume people only enjoy something because it's overpowered is not really justifiable. I've already stated why I and many others I know enjoyed it; the continual speed boost. Many would prefer the boss kiting aspect was limited in another way without the rest of the game being slowed down too.

But this seems to be the general (presumably not deliberate) direction lately - make us move slowly through quests so it appears the content lasts longer. Slower attack speed, DA, "sticky" from the Taken, now wings. For some people, a lot I know, the boost to speed at L17 is the great thing about FVS and the removal of it now makes that class pretty much redundant. I know both mine are getting dumped. Same reason I never get a cleric to cap - YAWN speed.

[Rizzyn]

Your main is a cleric right?

I see your trying to solo ToD. A feat thats only ever been done by a favored soul.

Your screenshots getting to p3 are quite clearly also favored souls (Coincidence?).. Yet your signature lists your main as a cleric. Also the char you took on my elite/epic raids, so I would hope it was your main you took along =)

Solo ToD on your cleric instead. Tell me how fun the chains are and how part 2 was just as easy.

I've only quoted the above for easy reference. Also, I wanted to say that this (Wing nerf) was not Shade's idea. The fact that it was mentioned so quickly after his discussion about the LoB Raid tells me that it was already under consideration. He WAS speaking in terms of limiting a particular tactic in order to maintain the "Challenge Level" of the Raid itself. He plays a Favored Soul, and he was not after a Nerf to their wings, but an additional challenge inside the Raid itself.

All that aside, I've spent last night running LoB with Shade and Company. I had an excellent time, as did my Lady, another Favored Soul. At no time did Shade declare, "At last, your Game Deforming Ways have been brought to Heel! Now go use your fleeting advantage to Kite those cursed Hounds!" What he did ask was for volunteers to aggro and Kite the Hounds from amongst the Favored Souls running the Epic Raid, after a moment of silence, wherein I'm sure we two Favored Souls were thinking, "Jeez! I Hope the Other Guy Volunteers!" The Other Guy was me. I kited them, with a Reminder from Shade, "Only use your wings in emergencies, since they're limited now."

That was that. I've written a review on my experience, and while I still don't like the Nerf, I'm not crippled by the change.

All that said, I'd like to address the ToD thing. While it is true that it has only be solo'd successfully by a Favored Soul, perhaps in a manner not intended, this line of logic assumes that all Favored Souls are created equal, and that the Game Deformers-er-pardon-Wings are the source of this victory. Don't get me wrong, I am sure they were used to excellent, if not incredible, advantage, but I submit to the DEVs that it wasn't the only tool in this Favored Soul's toolbox. I believe the individual was Teth, I believe the Favored Soul was Tethtify. Here's a link to Tethtify's Sheet, view it in IE, or you'll lose some significant information.

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/tethtify/

If my guess is correct, and this is the character that solo'd ToD, I am forced to consider the possibility that it wasn't his Wings alone. I must think that his 10 TRs had something to do with it, as well as his preponderance of Epic Gear. Tethtify in no way represents Favored Souls as an entire body. That one individual pulled this off, and happened to be a Favored Soul, is not "Game Deforming". If it were, more than one Favored Soul would have done so. I also believe that Tethtify could STILL do so. I'm not saying the Wings weren't a factor, but I AM saying they weren't the only factor, and possibly, not even the "biggest" factor in his success. Player skill aside, and I have to believe after 10 TRs Teth knows what he's doing, there's no way I, in my Favored Soul, could pull this off. I just don't know that Raid well enough. How many times has Teth run the raid in groups? I'd betting he ran that Raid, prior to Soloing it, a fair number of times. I'm betting that not only does he know it, he knows it extremely well, and knows the tricks of the quest as there are always tricks, whether its a wall to jump over that shortens a trip, or what have you. Even if I knew that Raid like the back of my hand, I honestly don't think I could solo it, I don't have the stuff -- be it experience, gear, or what have you. I'm a Good Player, I think, but I don't have 10 TRs behind me, and neither do most Favored Souls.

Now, I'm not accusing Teth/Tethtify of bringing down the Nerf Bat on us, and no one else should either, anymore than they should be accusing Shade of the same. I am, however, saying that Tethtify is a Monster of a Character, and after all that work, rightfully so. He took what he earned, and challenged himself, and won. Shade has long called for a Challenge that satisfied everyone, including those that clearly put a lot of hours into their game and are geared and TR'd to the Gills. The Game, as it stands now, has constructed a model wherein someone can TR 10 times and have all manner of Epic Gear, and by accomplishing this, this individual has a problem finding a Challenge in your average Elite Raid, indeed, if a number of people get together at this level, they'll have a problem finding a challenge in an average Epic or Elite Quest or Raid. This is their success, and the Game's failure to provide content that satisfied the "Monsters" they created. That one individual is so well-geared, and TR'd that he could accomplish what DEVs would have thought previously impossible says more about the Game itself, than it does about the use of Wings in a solo Raid.

I must address my "Job Space" now.

[karpedieme]

I've only quoted the above for easy reference. Also, I wanted to say that this (Wing nerf) was not Shade's idea. The fact that it was mentioned so quickly after his discussion about the LoB Raid tells me that it was already under consideration. He WAS speaking in terms of limiting a particular tactic in order to maintain the "Challenge Level" of the Raid itself. He plays a Favored Soul, and he was not after a Nerf to their wings, but an additional challenge inside the Raid itself.

All that aside, I've spent last night running LoB with Shade and Company. I had an excellent time, as did my Lady, another Favored Soul. At no time did Shade declare, "At last, your Game Deforming Ways have been brought to Heel! Now go use your fleeting advantage to Kite those cursed Hounds!" What he did ask was for volunteers to aggro and Kite the Hounds from amongst the Favored Souls running the Epic Raid, after a moment of silence, wherein I'm sure we two Favored Souls were thinking, "Jeez! I Hope the Other Guy Volunteers!" The Other Guy was me. I kited them, with a Reminder from Shade, "Only use your wings in emergencies, since they're limited now."

That was that. I've written a review on my experience, and while I still don't like the Nerf, I'm not crippled by the change.

All that said, I'd like to address the ToD thing. While it is true that it has only be solo'd successfully by a Favored Soul, perhaps in a manner not intended, this line of logic assumes that all Favored Souls are created equal, and that the Game Deformers-er-pardon-Wings are the source of this victory. Don't get me wrong, I am sure they were used to excellent, if not incredible, advantage, but I submit to the DEVs that it wasn't the only tool in this Favored Soul's toolbox. I believe the individual was Teth, I believe the Favored Soul was Tethtify. Here's a link to Tethtify's Sheet, view it in IE, or you'll lose some significant information.

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/tethtify/

If my guess is correct, and this is the character that solo'd ToD, I am forced to consider the possibility that it wasn't his Wings alone. I must think that his 10 TRs had something to do with it, as well as his preponderance of Epic Gear. Tethtify in no way represents Favored Souls as an entire body. That one individual pulled this off, and happened to be a Favored Soul, is not "Game Deforming". If it were, more than one Favored Soul would have done so. I also believe that Tethtify could STILL do so. I'm not saying the Wings weren't a factor, but I AM saying they weren't the only factor, and possibly, not even the "biggest" factor in his success. Player skill aside, and I have to believe after 10 TRs Teth knows what he's doing, there's no way I, in my Favored Soul, could pull this off. I just don't know that Raid well enough. How many times has Teth run the raid in groups? I'd betting he ran that Raid, prior to Soloing it, a fair number of times. I'm betting that not only does he know it, he knows it extremely well, and knows the tricks of the quest as there are always tricks, whether its a wall to jump over that shortens a trip, or what have you. Even if I knew that Raid like the back of my hand, I honestly don't think I could solo it, I don't have the stuff -- be it experience, gear, or what have you. I'm a Good Player, I think, but I don't have 10 TRs behind me, and neither do most Favored Souls.

Now, I'm not accusing Teth/Tethtify of bringing down the Nerf Bat on us, and no one else should either, anymore than they should be accusing Shade of the same. I am, however, saying that Tethtify is a Monster of a Character, and after all that work, rightfully so. He took what he earned, and challenged himself, and won. Shade has long called for a Challenge that satisfied everyone, including those that clearly put a lot of hours into their game and are geared and TR'd to the Gills. The Game, as it stands now, has constructed a model wherein someone can TR 10 times and have all manner of Epic Gear, and by accomplishing this, this individual has a problem finding a Challenge in your average Elite Raid, indeed, if a number of people get together at this level, they'll have a problem finding a challenge in an average Epic or Elite Quest or Raid. This is their success, and the Game's failure to provide content that satisfied the "Monsters" they created. That one individual is so well-geared, and TR'd that he could accomplish what DEVs would have thought previously impossible says more about the Game itself, than it does about the use of Wings in a solo Raid.

I must address my "Job Space" now.

/signed

Amen....

Well said...

With tr's the game has allowed characters to out build and outplay the content....

Its not the character classes at fault its the lack of complex game machanics here that is the root cause...

Will Turbine ever even remotely conced or address this....

[delsoboss]

DISCLAIMER: I don't have a fvs but i hope this doesn't invalidate my comment

Alright so we have another s**tstorm on the forums due to a nerf in the next update.

Putting aside the "It's overpowered" "No, it's not" debate i've seen that a lot of the posters against the change write "You're ruining my fun of winging around town" and maybe this can be addressed as a separate issue.

Honestly i don't know how this can be technically difficult to do but maybe when fvs recieve wings they could recieve 2 abilities: 1 unlimited in public areas, 1 limited (5 uses, 3 secs cooldown, 1 recharge every 15 secs or wathever) in quest/wilderness instances.

There is already the house P trinket that works only in public instances so maybe the unlimited ability can mimicry that functionality? I don't know, just wanted to chime in with an idea i haven't seen written in the discussions on this topic.

[budalic]

While most of what you say is true you are forgetting a few things. Fly was qiuite common and quite useful in pnp and not uber op. In ddo the best you get is the TERRIBLE version of fly that only the stormreaver can cast on you and its a pita to do ANYTHING while flying. Fly doesn't translate well to ddo because it would break just about any quest. Fvs didnt suck in pnp but they were not the preferred healer. Also in pnp battle clerics ruled and sorcs sucked way more than fvs.

1) I don't know what I'm forgetting, really - Wings in DDO are amazing, flying in PnP was minor flavor ability. The fact that we have or we have not fly in DDO doesn't have anything to do with it.

2)FvS, compared to powerhouses like clr, wiz and druid, did suck. So did sorcs, yes. I'm rather bemused why you call divine caster healer - healing in combat was quite rare in 3.5e. Usually cleric was better off obliterating/shooting/swinging at oposition.

[protokon]

I've only quoted the above for easy reference. Also, I wanted to say that this (Wing nerf) was not Shade's idea. The fact that it was mentioned so quickly after his discussion about the LoB Raid tells me that it was already under consideration. He WAS speaking in terms of limiting a particular tactic in order to maintain the "Challenge Level" of the Raid itself. He plays a Favored Soul, and he was not after a Nerf to their wings, but an additional challenge inside the Raid itself.

All that aside, I've spent last night running LoB with Shade and Company. I had an excellent time, as did my Lady, another Favored Soul. At no time did Shade declare, "At last, your Game Deforming Ways have been brought to Heel! Now go use your fleeting advantage to Kite those cursed Hounds!" What he did ask was for volunteers to aggro and Kite the Hounds from amongst the Favored Souls running the Epic Raid, after a moment of silence, wherein I'm sure we two Favored Souls were thinking, "Jeez! I Hope the Other Guy Volunteers!" The Other Guy was me. I kited them, with a Reminder from Shade, "Only use your wings in emergencies, since they're limited now."

That was that. I've written a review on my experience, and while I still don't like the Nerf, I'm not crippled by the change.

All that said, I'd like to address the ToD thing. While it is true that it has only be solo'd successfully by a Favored Soul, perhaps in a manner not intended, this line of logic assumes that all Favored Souls are created equal, and that the Game Deformers-er-pardon-Wings are the source of this victory. Don't get me wrong, I am sure they were used to excellent, if not incredible, advantage, but I submit to the DEVs that it wasn't the only tool in this Favored Soul's toolbox. I believe the individual was Teth, I believe the Favored Soul was Tethtify. Here's a link to Tethtify's Sheet, view it in IE, or you'll lose some significant information.

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/tethtify/

If my guess is correct, and this is the character that solo'd ToD, I am forced to consider the possibility that it wasn't his Wings alone. I must think that his 10 TRs had something to do with it, as well as his preponderance of Epic Gear. Tethtify in no way represents Favored Souls as an entire body. That one individual pulled this off, and happened to be a Favored Soul, is not "Game Deforming". If it were, more than one Favored Soul would have done so. I also believe that Tethtify could STILL do so. I'm not saying the Wings weren't a factor, but I AM saying they weren't the only factor, and possibly, not even the "biggest" factor in his success. Player skill aside, and I have to believe after 10 TRs Teth knows what he's doing, there's no way I, in my Favored Soul, could pull this off. I just don't know that Raid well enough. How many times has Teth run the raid in groups? I'd betting he ran that Raid, prior to Soloing it, a fair number of times. I'm betting that not only does he know it, he knows it extremely well, and knows the tricks of the quest as there are always tricks, whether its a wall to jump over that shortens a trip, or what have you. Even if I knew that Raid like the back of my hand, I honestly don't think I could solo it, I don't have the stuff -- be it experience, gear, or what have you. I'm a Good Player, I think, but I don't have 10 TRs behind me, and neither do most Favored Souls.

Now, I'm not accusing Teth/Tethtify of bringing down the Nerf Bat on us, and no one else should either, anymore than they should be accusing Shade of the same. I am, however, saying that Tethtify is a Monster of a Character, and after all that work, rightfully so. He took what he earned, and challenged himself, and won. Shade has long called for a Challenge that satisfied everyone, including those that clearly put a lot of hours into their game and are geared and TR'd to the Gills. The Game, as it stands now, has constructed a model wherein someone can TR 10 times and have all manner of Epic Gear, and by accomplishing this, this individual has a problem finding a Challenge in your average Elite Raid, indeed, if a number of people get together at this level, they'll have a problem finding a challenge in an average Epic or Elite Quest or Raid. This is their success, and the Game's failure to provide content that satisfied the "Monsters" they created. That one individual is so well-geared, and TR'd that he could accomplish what DEVs would have thought previously impossible says more about the Game itself, than it does about the use of Wings in a solo Raid.

I must address my "Job Space" now.

I don't get it. Yes i'm currently trying to solo TOD on a favored soul, but if you myddo'd him he is geared to the teeth possibly even better than my cleric - but more importantly, I built that toon around soloing, I built my cleric around maximizing efficiency in a party.

my favored soul has:
-80 ac self-buffed.
-great saves
-prefers to melee over casting spells.

I designed this character for soloing, and he prefers to melee - and guess what, you don't need wings to do that. Even more so, anyone who has played a divine knows that kiting through a blade barrier is *not* efficient using wings, you are better off kiting the mob in a more precise manner tangent to the blades to maximize damage for SP efficiency.

If you want me to solo TOD with my cleric just to prove that you don't need wings to do it, then I will find a way.

EDIT: noticed of course his MYDDO page is borked just like the rest of my toons. it is *very* outdated, lol.

[Samadhi]

If you want me to solo TOD with my cleric just to prove that you don't need wings to do it, then I will find a way.

Absolutely.

As people have been saying for (X) pages; wings are irrelevant here.

They are destroying our fun - for absolutely NO gain.

End of story.

[kitsune_ko]

Though i have mentioned this before, as they still have not bothered with any sort of comment on their nerf I will say it again. I am still quite eagerly awating a real explaination from the Devs as to why FvS are getting nerfed.

Two days from idea, to anouncement to implementation. Can you really say this was given all due consideration Devs? Because it seems your minds were already made up as soon as Shades run was finished.

In two years of play, I cannot recall another serious and unpopular nerf being pushed though so quickly; and for a reason(s) completely unexplained by the Dev team.

"deforming the raid space" doesn't cut it as an explaination. I have been in the computers/technology industry for probably longer then most of the Devs have been walking upright, and this "reason" stinks to me of thrown together buzz words. Which I have done myself on occasion, so I should know.

"deforming the raid space" is exceptionally vague and undiscriptive, though quite impressive sounding I admit. I might even have to borrow the "Deforming the X" for my own use sometime.

It is infact so impressive I would almost think they could perhaps even work this into a Star Trek episode.

----

Scene opens with the Blue-shirted Science Officer looking intently at their sensor panel. the Blue-shirted Science Officer looks over to where the captain is sitting and speaks.

Blue-shirted Science Officer: "Captain, I believe sensors are picking up an abnormality ahead"

Captain: "What is it Blue-shirted Science Officer?"

Blue-shirted Science Officer: "Sensors seem to be showing a Favored Soul using "Leap of Faith"

Captain: "Will this be a problem, Blue-shirted Science Officer?"

Blue-shirted Science Officer: "Their use of "Leap of Faith -is- deforming the raid space Captain, I suggest if we proceed, we do so with caution. I am unsure what effects this deforming of the raid space will have."

The captain turn to the Pithy-Wisecracking comedic relief Helmsman and speaks.

Captain: "Pithy-Wisecracking comedic relief Helmsman! Slow to half impulse; and stand by red alert"

Pithy-Wisecracking comedic relief Helmsman: "Aye captain; slowing to half impulse" {Insert pithy wisecrack here}

------

[Cyr]

Though i have mentioned this before, as they still have not bothered with any sort of comment on their nerf I will say it again. I am still quite eagerly awating a real explaination from the Devs as to why FvS are getting nerfed.

The cynic in me sees the following reasoning going on at Turbine HQ...

FvS are the newest class in the game. Give them tons of stuff so people will buy them.

Artificers are the newest class in the game. Give them tons of stuff so people will buy them.

FvS no longer the newest class so throw out some minor nerfs to make the newest class seem even more appealing.

[budalic]

The cynic in me sees the following reasoning going on at Turbine HQ...

FvS are the newest class in the game. Give them tons of stuff so people will buy them.

Artificers are the newest class in the game. Give them tons of stuff so people will buy them.

FvS no longer the newest class so throw out some minor nerfs to make the newest class seem even more appealing.

The issue with that is that FvS, along with, off the top of my head, 3 other classes, is still better than Artificer. It would make much more sense to make Artificers equal to u9 FvS, and then nerf FvS.

...Perhaps they undershot?

[Sydril]

Its a shame wind dance is going to get nerfed as a result of favored souls causing problems.

The cooldown is 6 seconds now, which is already noticably longer than the favored soul cooldown, and sorcerer's kiting abilities are already mitigated greatly by the lack of bladebarrier, as well as reliance eladar's surge for really effectively using this strategy. Many more mob are immune to electric damage (sorjek, stormreaver and demon queen just to name a few). Also with the exception of warforged most sorcerers lack the quickened self healing abilities that favored souls use in this sort of kiting.

Seriously lets not throw out blanket nerfs on things that aren't out of control. Work the problems from their source.

[Deamus]

Disclaimer : Not a troll post , Not a bait post!

Overreaction in this thread is ridiculous !!!

The wing ability wasn't removed or nerfed to oblivion . The so called nerf is so soft that all these posts are unnecessary .

Some people have to chill down a bit.

Please stop whining....wings were OP and are OP so cool down a bit....

PS. Yes you can neg rep the one who tells the truth , thank you!

[ballsz]

Change the mobs, make them harder, do whatever, but don't make it so I can't spam my wings. That's one of the funnest things in the game.

You made FVS's OP why do I have to pay for it in fun? You did because you said it was a P2P class and should have advantages, now the wings we've had from the start of FVS are OP and causing a problem?

If you are that bored as a developer try looking into the string table ID errors above the mob's heads I STILL see all the time, or how about other simple things that need to be fixed like Angel Skin. DR 5/EVIL ??? Ring a bell to any pally's out there?.. I could go on and on as we all know.

Don't change my wings.

[kitsune_ko]

Disclaimer : Not a troll post , Not a bait post!

Overreaction in this thread is ridiculous !!!

The wing ability wasn't removed or nerfed to oblivion . The so called nerf is so soft that all these posts are unnecessary .

Some people have to chill down a bit.

Please stop whining....wings were OP and are OP so cool down a bit....

PS. Yes you can neg rep the one who tells the truth , thank you!

What a lot of the complaints are is the Devs insistance on a total game nerfage to Leap of Faith.

Ignoring the debate over if Leap of Faith is OP or not in quest/raid content, there is absolutely no way it could be considered "gamebreaking" or "overpowered" to be able to move around quickly in non-questing content.

I have never heard "OMG Turbine! This FvS can get across the Harbor faster then I can, its OP! Nerf Plz"

People are objecting very loudly to the Devs intentionally targeting the "fun" factor of the FvS class, of blocking wing spamming in non-combat areas as well as in quest/raids, and after the Devs said it themselves in this very topic that it be easy to just restrict Leap of Faith in certain quests/raids after the players asked if it could be done that way.

That the players would even offer this shows where most FvS players derive the enjoyment of "Leap of Faith" comes from. Saying "OK, nerf me in quests and raids if you have your heart set on it, but leave me be everywhere else" is not the cry of players complaining about losing their uberness, it is a cry of players worried about losing their fun in playing FvS.

That the Devs are still targeting the "fun" factor of the FvS class by making the nerf a global one, after they said it was not necessary; stacked on top of the as of yet to be even explained double nerfing hit of limited usage with a doubled SP cost, does have a lot of players complaining, and quite rightly so.

And you think the rage is bad now, this is just the preview server population, wait until it goes live and the 95% of the DDO gaming population that does not play Lamannia, or never read the forum/release notes log in after the nerf goes live on the servers, and find their FvS's all seriously gimped in all game content, combat and non-, and with no explaination.

It will be a lively and heated few days on the forums after this mess goes live I am sure.

[voodoogroves]

Disclaimer : Not a troll post , Not a bait post!

Overreaction in this thread is ridiculous !!!

The wing ability wasn't removed or nerfed to oblivion . The so called nerf is so soft that all these posts are unnecessary .

Some people have to chill down a bit.

Please stop whining....wings were OP and are OP so cool down a bit....

PS. Yes you can neg rep the one who tells the truth , thank you!

Love you man, but as someone who runs ADQ a ton and just counted his 20+ leaps to get from Zawabis to there, I'm going to feel this hard on live on my 3 FVS.

"over-reaction" is you placing a subjective judgement on it

It's a "reaction" ... plain and simple ... don't judge until you've flown a mile in the shoes of some of the long-time FVSers. If they say they are going to feel it - they are going to feel it.

Whether or not getting to ADQ faster was OP or not, they are going to feel it. It is a net-loss.

[Elaril]

Disclaimer : Not a troll post , Not a bait post!

Overreaction in this thread is ridiculous !!!

The wing ability wasn't removed or nerfed to oblivion . The so called nerf is so soft that all these posts are unnecessary .

Some people have to chill down a bit.

Please stop whining....wings were OP and are OP so cool down a bit....

PS. Yes you can neg rep the one who tells the truth , thank you!

So leap of faith is OP, in relation to what? Classes that do not have leap of faith? It is the defining feature of the FVS and should be OP IMHO. You can, and would be accurate, make the argument that every class in the game has an ability that is OP in relation to classes that do not have that ability. That is what makes playing different classes worth it, so you get a different perspective on the game and can continue to enjoy it.

It is the developer's responsibility to implement content that takes into account the strenghts of various class, not alter the class because they forgot, or didn't realize, the capabilities of the class.

[Luthe111]

I'm not convinced that's true. I've played a Pale Master, in Wraith-form with Haste and other gear, they're VERY Zippy. No, it's not a Leap away, but they can kite their Walls of Fire, Cloudkills, and other AoEs very, very well, and cast DoTs beside. The question is kiting, the question is Leap of Faith and whether or not Nerfing it solves a problem. It doesn't. I've yet to meet an "UnKillable" Favored Soul, though people often talk about them, and yet no one has popped up to say they were one. I know several that ran the new Raids, not a one of them avoided death, Wings did not magically save them.

Shade mentioned one particularly skilled Healer that suffered NOT 1 DEATH in his Elite LoB Run; She was a CLERIC.

Nerfing Leap of Faith is not the answer to the problem(s) as they have been outlined. Every Class has a segment of players that have learned the ins and outs and gear so well their level seems almost exploitative. That's not "Game Deforming", that's simply player success.

not sure what wraith has to do with speed (?) but any single class in game can get speed gear and haste. plus barbs monks and such have speed bonuses that stack with that, with all of those being slower than lof. im simply saying wizards r not designed to kite. they can, but not as well as many other classes. however fvs undisputed kite champion due to lof, mixed with dots and blade barriers, which as i said work on practically everything, opposed to fire wall and cloud kill which many r immune/resistant to. also i have no clue what ins and outs of gear have to do with lof, as u seem to correspond lof being successfull due to gear? also no real learning required for lof, requires hotbar click, making a build success that then causes player success.(though suppose it could also be used poorly in quest say like tor and acid drown urself, causing player failure)

[budalic]

n opposed to fire wall and cloud kill which many r immune/resistant to.

Um, did you hear about U9? You know, the update that brought us acid rain and arcane DoTs.

I'm also pretty sure that no one I know of killed anything by kiting it exclusively through Cloudkill. If there is anybody that did... that would've been astonishing demonstration of patience.

At any rate, I think those crazy people playing fleshy sorcs (and being good at it) literally live by being all over the place. (which means they survive by kiting, mostly)

[Rodasch]

Um, did you hear about U9? You know, the update that brought us acid rain and arcane DoTs.

I'm also pretty sure that no one I know of killed anything by kiting it exclusively through Cloudkill. If there is anybody that did... that would've been astonishing demonstration of patience.

At any rate, I think those crazy people playing fleshy sorcs (and being good at it) literally live by being all over the place. (which means they survive by kiting, mostly)

Kiting is part of it, there's also stacks of heal scrolls and guild heal pots, ccw wands, etc coupled with shield blocking, damage reduction items, etc...that and killing stuff faster than it kills you.

It's all a race to zero, and whoever wins loses.