Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[SilkofDrasnia]

Hey Shade, I was asking a question, not making a statement.

Just saying that most people seem happy with the suggestions you made and not with the Devs response. If you feel the same way, and you seem to have some influence, maybe say you think the general nerf is not the way to go and encourage the Devs to go with your original suggestion.

see the problem is when devs start making changes because a some peeps in a forum wish it like that this kinda thing invariably happens (as they rarely do it completely as suggested) to point it comes back to bite the one trying to "fix" or "balance" stuff in the arse and evryone else as-well .

like my sig says

[MrTops]

Nice edit.. and by nice I mean utterly false.

I have absolutely never asked for any general wing nerf and infact said very clearly i'd vote against it.

meh i dont know why I bother responding to these anymore tho. last one for the night anyways, you win getting me frusterated by person the 90000th person to try to put words into my mouth I never said.

Provide exact quotes from me, else stop trying to provote other players for absolutely no reason as its agains the forum rules.

Edited my previous post to include the whole quote.

And please accept my apologies if I seem to be trolling. I really was asking what I thought was a rhetorical question.

I don't suspect you do want a general nerf, and you may have even spoken against it (but in the mass of posts I might have missed it).

I just think, since this whole general nerf seems to have stemmed from your comments on the Lord of Blades raid, you might speak up if you think it's a bad idea.

[SableShadow]

Thing is, I think most people seem happy with Shades suggestions, but that's not what the Devs seem intent on implementing.

On the dev side, it is easier to implement what they already have code for (and I'm going to go out on a limb and say they've already had code that would put the click n' timer debuff in, but no code that will let them snare wings with chains or extend crippling to cover wings) ... so, devs see test results, look at proposals, and take the way out that they know they can implement.

This is understandable, if not acceptable. We just need to make it un-acceptable enough to justify the development time ... I've never met a dev who wanted to make a poor app, but I've also never met one who had the time and $$$ to make the app they wanted to.

So, you see, all devs reading this ... we're helping you make the app you want by being incorrigible, ungrateful, word twisting, never satisfied, unmitigated sons of guns.

Also, you're welcome.

[MrTops]

On the dev side, it is easier to implement what they already have code for (and I'm going to go out on a limb and say they've already had code that would put the click n' timer debuff in, but no code that will let them snare wings with chains or extend crippling to cover wings) ... so, devs see test results, look at proposals, and take the way out that they know they can implement.

This is understandable, if not acceptable. We just need to make it un-acceptable enough to justify the development time ... I've never met a dev who wanted to make a poor app, but I've also never met one who had the time and $$$ to make the app they wanted to.

So, you see, all devs reading this ... we're helping you make the app you want by being incorrigible, ungrateful, word twisting, never satisfied, unmitigated sons of guns.

Also, you're welcome.

I'm sure you're right about fitting existing mechanisms. Smite springs to mind as a number limited effect with a cool down and longer regeneration. Their proposal fits that with the addition of an SP cost.

[Iwinbyrollup]

On the dev side, it is easier to implement what they already have code for (and I'm going to go out on a limb and say they've already had code that would put the click n' timer debuff in, but no code that will let them snare wings with chains or extend crippling to cover wings) ... so, devs see test results, look at proposals, and take the way out that they know they can implement.

It's already been stated in this thread that they could implement the chains thing easily:

[Having chains stop wings] is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

[kitsune_ko]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

It would have also been quite easy for them to change it so just certain raids/bosses could effect FvS Leap of Faith according to Eladrin.

The Devs just wanted the total nerf more.

Because if the Devs actually took the time to read what was being said here; obviously most comments posted here say they would rather have unfettered use in non-combat zones and have certain bosses/raids with the ability to restrain them instead.

The SP increase to 10 from 5 each use, stacked on top the global timer, was just a little bonus nerf they threw in.

[budalic]

I know having a class nerfed in fun department sucks, but amount of overreaction in this thread is over 9000. Chill down a bit, please. At any rate, commenting on stuff that I consider rather silly.

Mmm, because it is a poor gimped version of what is supposed to be a class ability of flying?

Of course, in PnP it was one of most pointless class features written in entire game.

- all examples are from SRD... I didn't even take a look in Spell compedium

Fly spell (note that Cleric with travel domain could also cast it at lvl 5): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm
Wings of flying (item): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...#wingsofFlying

And there is stuff like that all over the splats: Overland flight, Mass Fly, whatever. So, please, better don't involve PnP into this discussion. In PnP, FvS sucked compared to cleric, big time, anyway.

4) people are upset because their characters were nerfed, and they paid money specifically to get that class as it was advertised, not because the ability was "overpowered" and they knew it and counted on it.

Pay money argument is always silly, especially in terms of classes. 'So, this class is powerful, but you need to pay for it' 'But, I like this class more' 'Then you'll suck, noob!'. Don't go there, please. Not to mention Pay 2 Win arguments that can spring from that. Paid classes should be different and interesting, not OP.

Wings are fine, nerf dots if anything. So from what I hear there is interest in nerfing wings, which was caused by a group of fvs with tons of free potions winging around killing the boss. That's not a controlled test of what typically happens, nobody uses that many potions in a quest/raid. Get real...

It is unclear why wings were nerfed, really. And I think it's stupid. However, I am very happy that devs aren't nerfing DoTs because of all nerf DoTs not Wings people... It would be rather more damaging to multiple classes.

On the dev side, it is easier to implement what they already have code for (and I'm going to go out on a limb and say they've already had code that would put the click n' timer debuff in, but no code that will let them snare wings with chains or extend crippling to cover wings) ... so, devs see test results, look at proposals, and take the way out that they know they can implement.

I think Eladrin said somewhere that it would be quite easy to make chains stop winging, but they want wings to be escape mechanism. But, yeah, perhaps click'n timer was easiest to implement.

EDIT: Didn't some monks say that they want click'n timer too? It would be really nice for devs to make it like that if it would buff the class.

[kitsune_ko]

If we are playing "This is not PnP" then we can just as easily say "WF are an overpowered race; take away 2/3 of their free racial abilites; this isn't PnP after all". or "Why can't I roll up a Pali-bard? alignment restrictions? thats so PnP this isn't PnP" or even "Why can't my ranger have the fireball spell? This isnt PnP after all".

It is not PnP; but it is supposed to be as close as they can get. Thats why they get to add "Dungeons and Dragons" to the game title rather then "Random Dungeon Crawler: Unlimited".

Leap of Faith is supposed to be the DDO equivelent to the FvS Lv 17 class skill of flight.

And mentioning Fly; I am quite sure that I heard a Dev on the forums mention some time back that they were kicking around the idea of trying to implement it DDO somehow for the casters. I would imagine if they ever get close to releasing it; it would considerably increase you interest in following PnP rules

And yes; when you pay for something; you expect a little more. I, like most other FvS players, exchanged my USD for a very specific design of class. Specifically the Leap of Faith ability. So quite rightly we will get a little upset when its defining feature gets changed considerably and apperently at the whim of the Dev team, as they still have not expained in anything but the vaguest of generalities why it is even necessary.

So there is considerable grounds for complaint against this FvS nerfage.

[budalic]

If we are playing "This is not PnP" then we can just as easily say "WF are an overpowered race; take away 2/3 of their free racial abilites; this isn't PnP after all". or "Why can't I roll up a Pali-bard? alignment restrictions? thats so PnP this isn't PnP" or even "Why can't my ranger have the fireball spell? This isnt PnP after all".

It is not PnP; but it is supposed to be as close as they can get. Thats why they get to add "Dungeons and Dragons" to the game title rather then "Random Dungeon Crawler: Unlimited".

Leap of Faith is supposed to be the DDO equivelent to the FvS Lv 17 class skill of flight.

And mentioning Fly; I am quite sure that I heard a Dev on the forums mention some time back that they were kicking around the idea of trying to implement it DDO somehow for the casters. I would imagine if they ever get close to releasing it; it would considerably increase you interest in following PnP rules

So, by your logic, all arcane casters should get temporary class ability leap of faith as a cast spell with haste duration at level 5?

Ironically enough, all of your 'this isn't pnp' arguments aren't even close to what would happen if game followed pnp.

I don't want rules to follow PnP as close as possible, thank you very much. There are no redname/purplenames in pnp. I don't want Holy word/Dictum/Blashpemy; I don't want Improved invisibilty, Greater stoneskin, or ****load of cleric buffs that made Cleric Archer so overpowered in PnP; Gate, Time stop, Imprisonment, ... And people complain that casters are OP now. Game is better this way.

And yes; when you pay for something; you expect a little more. I, like most other FvS players, exchanged my USD for a very specific design of class. Specifically the Leap of Faith ability. So quite rightly we will get a little upset when its defining feature gets changed considerably and apperently at the whim of the Dev team, as they still have not expained in anything but the vaguest of generalities why it is even necessary.

So there is considerable grounds for complaint against this FvS nerfage.

This is pay2win argument again. Paid classes should be different, inovative and fun. But if paid classes were strictly better, there would be 3 times more people complaining on forums about pay2win.

Like I said, I think that Wings nerf is stupid. But I find that theese 2 lines of argumentation are plain silly.

[Rodasch]

I honestly don't think the wings "nerf" is that big of a deal, but then again, I never needed wings to kite, and the change will actually let my air savant use his more often when he gets them, so it's all cool.

Honestly, if you're using them so much so often that you are actually "nerfed" by this change, maybe you're the ones they're targeting with it in the first place? I don't know. Like I said, I haven't played with it much yet, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Volaxis]

Not being able to spam wings will ruin their best benefit, being able to cover very long distances a little quicker.

If you want to stop FVS kiting a boss its pretty simple; disable wings around red/purple names. Your ruining fvs for 99% of the game where they can exploit for that 1%.

Not every fvs wants to solo ToD.

[NUDS]

All of my 20's have/had wings, so...COME AT ME NERF.

Looks like they have been hanging around with Blizzard dev team too much and the nerf-factor has rubbed off on them :P

Well except in this game there is no PvP, so I guess it's balancing for the benefit of monsters?

[Totensonntag]

take mana pots OUT of the DDO store. People are soloing this content because you allow them to do it with their credit card.

this and auto-debuff wings in raids where they cause problems would have been a great solution.

but this global wing nerf is not needed not asked for and just sux.

this nerf intended to cover up a failed raid concept is pure fail itself.

i come to believe devs don't even play doo these days and don't even care what actual players think.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I'd much prefer if it was 10x uses. or 5 at 17 with + 1 per level for a total of 8 at level 20. That would have been less of an annoyance.

Heck at this point simply making it be a toggle to turn it always on (cost 25 sp) which will disable the ability to cast other spells, and having a 15-30 sec cool down after you shut it off would be something ;p

[arkonas]

i need to agree too. i play my fvs mainly because of the wings and being able to do blade barrier and self heal to survive when i fight. what makes us stand out from the clerics is the wings. take that away from fvs why would anyone play them really? they will just move to clerics and do the aura more. not all will move but the wings is what makes fvs so worth it. 2500 favor to unlock or buy it. dont take away the one thing that made the class worth it. add aoe to the monsters. they should have some sort of option like mentioned about velah. oh i see some one far from me ok lets hit them.

[budalic]

take that away from fvs why would anyone play them really? they will just move to clerics and do the aura more. not all will move but the wings is what makes fvs so worth it.

Currently AoV does make FvS worth playing. And wings are still good.

Hmm, I wonder what will happen if cleric gets good offenive caster prestige. As far as I can remember both Warpriest and Exorcist of the silver flame are more melee-type.

I guess, in the end, wings will always be main draw of FvS. Even nerfed as they are now.

[voodoogroves]

Currently AoV does make FvS worth playing. And wings are still good.

Hmm, I wonder what will happen if cleric gets good offenive caster prestige. As far as I can remember both Warpriest and Exorcist of the silver flame are more melee-type.

I guess, in the end, wings will always be main draw of FvS. Even nerfed as they are now.

Yep, AoV is still very strong; I don't think many of the long-time FVS players (who were wings fans before) see it as a "I want both" - many would be happy with either-or.

That's why I favor making the FVS melee PRE (soon) more wing-friendly.

[Viisari]

Really, what's up with these people saying wings are the only thing making FvS worth playing? Sure they might be the most fun part about favored souls, but even if wings were removed and not just nerfed FvS would still do pretty much everything but healing better than a cleric does...

[budalic]

That's why I favor making the FVS melee PRE (soon) more wing-friendly.

Eh, I don't really know. LoF is lvl 17 class feature. You'd have to tie it into tier 3 of PRE, or have it available sooner with melee PRE. Both implementations sound a bit clunky.

Also, judging by reactions of people on forums, majority would take Divine avenger then, even if it is weaker than AoV. Plus, AoV is only one that has 'angel' in name.

It might be good balancing point in future, though - give weaker/less popular (healing one, perhaps? Beacon of Hope?) PRE more leaps at tier III.

[gloopygloop]

Nice edit.. and by nice I mean utterly false.

I have absolutely never asked for any general wing nerf and infact said very clearly i'd vote against it.

meh i dont know why I bother responding to these anymore tho. last one for the night anyways, you win getting me frusterated by person the 90000th person to try to put words into my mouth I never said.

Provide exact quotes from me, else stop trying to provote other players for absolutely no reason as its agains the forum rules.

Provide the quote where he said that you were saying that, else stop trying to provoke other players for absoultely no reason.

There's a difference between asking a question and making a statement.