Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[TeldinTabath]

I don't post much and I have never been on Lamannia, but I heard about this on the Live server, and wanted to voice my displeasure.

My first toon was a cleric. I brought him to cap, and truly enjoyed playing him. I eventually made a second toon - a melee ranger. I would often switch back and forth, and the one thing that kept bugging me when switching back to my cleric was the lack of mobility. After seeing all the FvS fly around, I decided I would try the class. Due to my addiction to gimps, I made him a multiclassed AA FvS - and I didn't really enjoy playing him until I got Wings.

I think the Dev's may be disconnected from the playerbase on this issue. I hardly use wings as an escape tool. I read an earlier post that the Dev's seem to think that's how most people use it. And, from my experience, it isn't. If you gave the "super-gravity" effect at each raid boss fight, I doubt you would have as many people complaining.

Most FvS players I know LOVE wings for one reason: getting around. That's right, simply moving around town is less of a chore if you have wings. Many quests we do above level for farming are also funner with wings. That's why your work around that will "fix" wings will actually destroy them. Seriously, I would rather every single boss in the game get a "chain all FvS upon entry" ability than your change. Think about that for a second. I would rather have to stand still during boss fights than have to put up with your garbage work-around in other quests. Sorry for the rudeness, but I have been mad all day about this nerf.

I am also not a fan of how this change was decided. A group went into your new raid and found a new strategy to defeat it that wasn't simply "surround/tank, heal". So, instead of trying to fix the issue in the raid, you decided to "fix" the players instead. Why? The raid hasn't gone live yet, and it seems like an easy fix - someone had previously mentioned an anti-gravity effect, which you have already implemented in another quest. I don't think highly of the Dev team deciding how a raid should be "won", and immediately punishing players who go about a raid in a different way. Half the fun I have in this game is trying quests with "sub-optimal" groups and trying to find different ways to win. Sometimes you discover a new mechanic or capabilities that makes the raid easier, or even funner, the next time. Requiring that every raid should have the same party make-up, the same tactic and nerfing anything that challenges that notion is not something I support.

I was a big fan of the last update. The change to spells really gave everyone more options and allowed for better gameplay. I am excited for the new content, but some of the changes I am hearing about makes this update seem like one overt cash-grab to me, one that will send this game down a path of "hack/slash&pot only!!". I hope not.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

What matters is:
Can anyone give a defense as to why Favored Souls should get Leap of Faith with unlimited 3s cooldown at practially no cost?

Because majority of FVS were BOUGHT with REAL LIFE MONEY!!!!

[Stanley_Nicholas]

If the devs want to keep wings available as an OH **** button even when chained (and I think it makes sense too), how about this as a suggestion:

When chained, you can still use wings/abundant step/air jump, but until the chains are removed the cooldown does not start counting down for you to use the ability again.

To me, that seems like a simple, elegant solution that does not require nerfing the abilities throughout the entire rest of the game.

[LordPiglet]

At least duration got upped. So it's not a pure nerf

Where's the longer duration useful?

Boss fights

[Gratch]

After trying this out on Lama, I'd say it's down to one of two choices:

-Revert the wing nerf-

OR

-Change every entry of the class name Favored Soul to Unfavored Soul-*



*Not just in your game and marketing but also on everything WotC has ever released including outdated minis sets at peoples house that currently say Favored Soul on them.. you need to update the plastic labeling on the bottom of that figure.

[Vordax]

Maybe the devs can just give us the fly ability from the Reaver, and just to make sure it doesn't break a lot of quests, limit it to only 5ft above ground level.

Vordax

PS Hopefully you invested in the swim skill..

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Not so long ago Sony decided to remove functionality from its PS3 which was an advertised feature that many people bought specifically for that advertised feature. "the ability to dual boot linux and or PS3 OS" Ask Sony if it enjoyed what followed.

Most people paid real life money for FVS's. The main feature of a FVS was wings. By nerfing this feature after we PAID FOR IT you are breaking a very basic business principle. In some countries that would be illegal.

This is not some item that can be ground or found in game. This is a purchased item that had a main feature "unlimited wings usage" which helped sell it.

It's like buying a 3D TV and then 1 year later having the 3D capability turned off. Sure its still a TV but it is not what I bought.

Turbine do you get it??

[wiglin]

The spell point cost needs to be removed at this point. The wings need to auto regen to full in town. Anything short of that and my FvS may just be retired no more heals from me. I suspect this will be the case for a few others.

I also changed my avatar since it looks like death is surrounded by wings.

[Invalid_50]

Not so long ago Sony decided to remove functionality from its PS3 which was an advertised feature that many people bought specifically for that advertised feature. "the ability to dual boot linux and or PS3 OS" Ask Sony if it enjoyed what followed.

Most people paid real life money for FVS's. The main feature of a FVS was wings. By nerfing this feature after we PAID FOR IT you are breaking a very basic business principle. In some countries that would be illegal.

This is not some item that can be ground or found in game. This is a purchased item that had a main feature "unlimited wings usage" which helped sell it.

It's like buying a 3D TV and then 1 year later having the 3D capability turned off. Sure its still a TV but it is not what I bought.

Turbine do you get it??

Few people understand this. It's true though.

And to make it even more interesting, it seems they are mainly changing it because of some stupid raid they are introducing in the next update...wings made it too "easy". They want us to brainlessly surround a monster and beat on it like a pinata waiting for the candy to pop out.

Guys, the loot pinata raids are played out, think of something else please.

Heck here is a suggestion thats already been in other games....its called "YOU WILL NOT EVADE ME!" It was in everquest. When a cleric or other squishy got agro, the monster would say "YOU WILL NOT EVADE ME SQUISHY!" and summon the squishy to his feet. Then he'd get a round of melee damage on the squishy as the squishy ran away.

Give some of the bosses that you are all 8utthurt about fvs flying away from the ability to do this every 30 seconds or something.

[azrael4h]

Since the nerf isn't as incompetent as the original plan was (not to say it isn't incompetent, poorly thought out, and an idea on par with NGE) I have to decide whether I'll continue to support Turbine and DDO. I'm still going to run people away from the game, and probably won't be buying the new pack out of spite. Artificer was already iffy.

Likely my FvS will end up a generic Barbarian or something else that the Devs feel is ok to play, or join my Paladin in Shroud farm duty. Obviously they don't want people to enjoy playing FvS. Question is, who will I farm for? My sorc? Since the ones for this are largely the same ones for removal of all insta-kills, and anything that gives arcanes something other than buff and hold to do, and turbine listens to those bozos, I suspect they'll be nerfed back into pre-U9 or worse states. Rangers and Paladins have already been pushed into undesirable states by Turbine. Bard? Everyone likes a Bard...

*sees Bard nerf coming* Oh ****...

[voodoogroves]

The spell point cost needs to be removed at this point. The wings need to auto regen to full in town. Anything short of that and my FvS may just be retired no more heals from me. I suspect this will be the case for a few others.

I also changed my avatar since it looks like death is surrounded by wings.

This is kinda where I am, partially.

If they didn't change DP, I may have one of my FVS just abuse the hell out of that like a good little robot - the others will TR though. Plenty of things I can have fun with still ...

[wiglin]

This is kinda where I am, partially.

If they didn't change DP, I may have one of my FVS just abuse the hell out of that like a good little robot - the others will TR though. Plenty of things I can have fun with still ...

I'll keep mine around, just wont be my main anymore. Movement is way too slow now. Tried it out on lammania and it is bad. No more zipping around. Time to go back to being a monk for fast run speed...at least until it is considered OP too.

[kmau]

Saying wings are the MAIN class feature is very shallow in my opinion.. I don't agree with the nerf however. They could simply prevent the use of them while chained instead of doing.. this.

[wiglin]

Saying wings are the MAIN class feature is very shallow in my opinion.. I don't agree with the nerf however. They could simply prevent the use of them while chained instead of doing.. this.

For me wings are why I played the class. I like moving fast, zerging, zipping around as fast as I can. Remove that and a huge part of my enjoyment drops. To say that's shallow is like you said an opinion. What people enjoy is different, for me having wings is the defining ability of a FvS. Their bonus sp are offset by a cleric using their aura for healing. Its alot about being as fast as possible.

Its now more expensive and less often. Thats a huge loss in fun factor, which is I will no longer use him as a main, and will be healing alot less.

[voodoogroves]

I'll keep mine around, just wont be my main anymore. Movement is way too slow now. Tried it out on lammania and it is bad. No more zipping around. Time to go back to being a monk for fast run speed...at least until it is considered OP too.

One of mine should hit basically all her relevant 20s in about a week. She'll TR to either Sorc or Wizard I think. Maybe Bard.

Another is a TR and just about capped. He's my crafter, so he'll TR to artificer.

Another is a TR as well and is kind of languishing around 15 (well, 16 banked). At some point I'll get back on him and re-cap him. He'll be my DP-abuser.

[voodoogroves]

Saying wings are the MAIN class feature is very shallow in my opinion.. I don't agree with the nerf however. They could simply prevent the use of them while chained instead of doing.. this.

It is the key differentiating factor between it and many classes. More SP, sure. Some resists, sure. Capstone DR is the (potential) 2nd ... but lots of the capstones are useful.

[wiglin]

One of mine should hit basically all her relevant 20s in about a week. She'll TR to either Sorc or Wizard I think. Maybe Bard.

Another is a TR and just about capped. He's my crafter, so he'll TR to artificer.

Another is a TR as well and is kind of languishing around 15 (well, 16 banked). At some point I'll get back on him and re-cap him. He'll be my DP-abuser.

I wasn't a DP abuser, is the thing. I used on raids, but never been in a heavy FvS raid. When I came on raids I healed mostly, tossed out the DP, but it takes alot of effort to keep all 3 stacking for max damage, then add in how rare the mob is debuffed to the point that I see numbers 1000+. Most of the time the numbers are 250ish, because the mob has to be light debuffed.

This is why DP is not craxy OP, it takes a FvS heavy party to maximize its effectiveness. If you are healing the group and DP'ing it is very easy to lose one of the stacks, and the shield light debuff doesn't exactly proc all the time on the tank.

Regardless of anything, we would not have seen all the parties go to a Fvs heavy setup. You would have a handful of players who only care about whats the best and most effective, but the rest will always play what they enjoy. We see it all the time in pugs. People as a whole will play what they enjoy, not what wins the day.

[voodoogroves]

I wasn't a DP abuser, is the thing. I used on raids, but never been in a heavy FvS raid. When I came on raids I healed mostly, tossed out the DP, but it takes alot of effort to keep all 3 stacking for max damage, then add in how rare the mob is debuffed to the point that I see numbers 1000+. Most of the time the numbers are 250ish, because the mob has to be light debuffed.

This is why DP is not craxy OP, it takes a FvS heavy party to maximize its effectiveness. If you are healing the group and DP'ing it is very easy to lose one of the stacks, and the shield light debuff doesn't exactly proc all the time on the tank.

Regardless of anything, we would not have seen all the parties go to a Fvs heavy setup. You would have a handful of players who only care about whats the best and most effective, but the rest will always play what they enjoy. We see it all the time in pugs. People as a whole will play what they enjoy, not what wins the day.

Me either, and I only pug. You're in RG, which is by no means filled with incapable slackers. Do I DP? Sure, but that's a secondary job.



Point of fact is, some apples ruined the pie and the bulk of us who were enjoying the speed are going to feel the pain.

And, you know, I may go anonymous (after I remember to add some raid channels to my FVS(s) ...)

[Soleran]

Saying wings are the MAIN class feature is very shallow in my opinion.. I don't agree with the nerf however. They could simply prevent the use of them while chained instead of doing.. this.

Wings are a main class feature just like 10/dr is at capstone as well as a healing capstone if chosen etc etc.

The benefit was additional mobility on command essentially in exchange for sp, that benefit has been reduced HUGELY.

[Shadowaras]

I am also not a fan of how this change was decided. A group went into your new raid and found a new strategy to defeat it that wasn't simply "surround/tank, heal". So, instead of trying to fix the issue in the raid, you decided to "fix" the players instead. Why?

I came late into this thread and from everything i have read .The only thing that hit the spot is the comment of the dude above..I mean realy u r willing to change out character's abilities at every case u found a certain ability doesnt agree well with a raid end boss or a certain fight u designed ?!? Thats realy .. I dont even know how to call it..Just remember we here r paying customers and we buy accordibgly of what is advertised ..like a pic with fvs wings saying escape and leap away from danger..And to be frank all i have read in this thread is people complaining because they have decided to play or make a class that when they finished the toon they just saw an fvs or something else a caster for example and liked it more.. Anyway better think b4 u act is my advice and think of all those players that have invested in their toons...