Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[voodoogroves]

And FWIW, my PM is a WF Wizard and so have the capability to go in and out of form as I wish ... I get told all the time that is an inefficient and poor choice. Dunno, it works for me. In either case I have a single on-demand self heal (neg energy burst / reconstruct).

[Venny]

My point has been and has always been...

Wizards Regardless of PrE is a Free Class and they can be Considered OP for a Free class.
Sorcerer Regardlesss of PrE is a Free Class and they too can be Considered OP for dishing out 3.5k Damage on a DoT.
Cleric is also a Free Class.... and they have Nifty Healing Aura and Bursts and are supposed to be the best healers and to me they are.

Those three classes are free and open to anyone that joins.


BUT

Favoured Soul is a PAY for Class... and if built well can dish out the damage better than a Cleric but no where near as powered as an Arcane. Just because they have added a PrE Finally that allows you to Summon a shoulder Lazer light that can do 250 on a crit.
But they don't have a pretty Healy Aura... and the Cleirc's don't need to be hit to establish a healing Aura to go off.
For A FVS to make anything Weak to allignment based Spells or Damage they must be HIT and even then it is a Chance. Savants get a neat Clicky... you click at and Boom whatever you have targeted is Weak to your chosen element.
If you want the same Sp as a Fvs all a cleric has to do is Splash a level of Sorc I have seen it done and look you have a heally without wings made from two free classes.


As a Pay to Play Class shouldn't it have Perks? Right now the only Perk is it's Winging Ability and the dr 10/Silver or Cold Iron.



As for Kiting.... as a Fvs I have been out run by Barbs on Haste and their Speedy clicky (Barbs that one must keep alive) and Rangers with their Haste boost and Long strider.

Arcanes have many more Damage Over Time AoE Spells than Blade Barrier... as one side of the BB does damage as the enemy enters it and only until they cross the other side of it will it deal another stage of damage... Arcanes have more chance to use the kite tactic as they can layer their damaging AoE spells can't they and 'Raste' with 30% striders and Shadow Walk?

Arcane AoE Damage over Time spells

-Wall of Fire
-Cloud Kill
-Acid Rain
-Ice Storm


Again cause I feel the need to POINT this out.
Selling point of the Favoured Soul Splash PAGE (apart from the great sword and the WINGS) are the Following WORDS

"Bring on the HEALING -and- the PAIN"



How Many LASTING AoE Damage spells for Arcanes are there cause I think I may have left out others.

[budalic]

long rant about stuff I wasn't even implying

I never said I want to nerf wings. I was only claiming that FvS is good class because a lot of people came and said 'FvS totally isn't best caster in game'. Well, it ****ing is. Also, the point wasnt in soloing entire eDQ1 (that is valid challenge), but just torc-soloing Lailat - which a lot more FvS/WF arcane players could probably do if they tried.

No need for you to get defensive, dammit. Wing nerfs are stupid. Asking for DoT nerfs is also stupid. The core problem in this game is that endgame content isn't designed with endgame players in mind* - when designing a raid/epic quest, first thing to do would be to see what stuff players can do.

Ex1: 'Ok, fvs can use wings' 'Add teleportation to boss, make boss teleport hit player with 80% slow and wing disable if player is moving away. That sould stop other forms of kting too.'
Ex2: 'Ok, this is trash fight.' 'Casters can instakill trash' 'Well, it's their coolest ability... but let's add this sweet orangename miniboss to keep non-instaing people occupied. Next trash fight is gonna be orangename wave, followed by two non-orangename waves that should spawn while players are still fighting orangenames.'

If design paradigm like that doesn't get implemented, you'll always see 'That ability is so OP' whine-type stuff.

*(also, shieldcasting legitimately needs to get nerfed).

[voodoogroves]

I never said I want to nerf wings. I was only claiming that FvS is good class because a lot of people came and said 'FvS totally isn't best caster in game'. Well, it ****ing is. Also, the point wasnt in soloing entire eDQ1 (that is valid challenge), but just torc-soloing Lailat - which a lot more FvS/WF arcane players could probably do if they tried.

No need for you to get defensive, dammit. Wing nerfs are stupid. Asking for DoT nerfs is also stupid. The core problem in this game is that endgame content isn't designed with endgame players in mind* - when designing a raid/epic quest, first thing to do would be to see what stuff players can do.

Ex1: 'Ok, fvs can use wings' 'Add teleportation to boss, make boss teleport hit player with 80% slow and wing disable if player is moving away. That sould stop other forms of kting too.'
Ex2: 'Ok, this is trash fight.' 'Casters can instakill trash' 'Well, it's their coolest ability... but let's add this sweet orangename miniboss to keep non-instaing people occupied. Next trash fight is gonna be orangename wave, followed by two non-orangename waves that should spawn while players are still fighting orangenames.'

If design paradigm like that doesn't get implemented, you'll always see 'That ability is so OP' whine-type stuff.

*(also, shieldcasting legitimately needs to get nerfed).

I'm not super defensive here - and don't think I was trying to rant - I think we're both seeing the internet lens ... trust me, this stuff doesn't get me too upset on the whole - I mean, it is my recreation time ;-)


I'm not one of those "someone is wrong on the internet" types - sometimes I ramble and type a lot - and it's not any indication of righteous indignation or anything (more that I'm stuck on a boring teleconference).

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Just like money in the real world...

1% of Humans Control 99% of the Money

1% of the Players influence 99% of the game.

How?

Well...we all know how it's done...

Solo Elite Amrath, Epic content, Epic Raids, Etc Etc.

Post in Achievements Page

Post in Suggestions "Too Easy Moar Harder"

Counter any Posts that involve "OP" or "Nerf"

/rinse

/repeat

[Scraap]

*(also, shieldcasting legitimately needs to get nerfed).

SP cost multiplier = ASF% (before modifiers)? That'd still leave it doable, but for a shorter duration.

[Rizzyn]

Well, what other benchmark do you want? Elite horoth? epic CAD? I'm pretty sure FvS is gonna be top in most cases.

We aren't discussing attrition, or general soloing. We're discussing tanking. PM, without outside healing, isn't really as good as FvS or WF arcane. And even with outside healing, Heal amp on a FvS built for it probably is greater advantage than all DR pale master can pile up upon him/herself.

To paraphrase certain person I know: 'Wizard is good. Insainly overpowered at doing some things. But FvS can do everything well.' From my experience, most of top TR-within-one-week-since-update guilds currently have big population of FvS; folowed by big population of Sorcs.

You're "pretty sure" isn't factual, nor is the statement that a "FvS can do it faster", without some evidence to suggest that it true. "Insanely Overpowered" sort of underlines the subordinate debate you're in; PM IS overpowered, that it is at "some things" has not been stated as "Game Deforming". Favored Souls are being accused of being good at ONE thing, and are being called OP because they can Wing-Kite? Where's the logic?

For Solo accomplishments, we'd be talking about a small percentage of not only skilled players, but more than likely exceptionally well-geared and thoughtful ones as well. We have, on hand, a thread with screenshots showing that a Pale Master, Phalcon, not only Solo'd EDQ1 sucessfully, he did it in 21 minutes, with 12 pots. I might add, he editorializes his 12 pots usage as if it somehow diminishes the accomplishment. It doesn't. I would have had to drink pots like water on my Favored Soul, an option not readily available on live, despite claims of community generosity, but one CAN do so on Lamannia. I only choose to highlight this as it is, I think, a reasonable benchmark for the kind of "Game Deforming" strategies that can be brought into play by another Class besides a FvS.

Also, whether he used Tanking or some mysterious advanced strategy is almost irrelevant. The discussion as hand is that Leap of Faith makes a Favored Soul capable of "deforming" the game. That is the DEVS language, not mine. The discussion is that Kiting has become more prevalent than Melee-Tanking, and that is a "deformation" of the game. That doesn't even begin to touch on the notion of "Tank-Casting", which has been underlined as more than doable by a Pale Master, and more efficiently, in some opinions, than a Favored Soul. Lacer is not representative of the middle band of players, and I mean "Average" mathematically, not in terms of capability. If the population is 100 people, and we know its a great deal more than that on any server, if we say the top tier is 10% which I think is very generous, you're talking about 10 people. If we say the same of the lowest tier, bad builds, people who don't play often enough to have a strong effect in a party, is also 10%, we're talking 10 people again. That leaves an average band of effective people, middling geared or not, of 80 people. The numbers are arbitrary, and perhaps on very old severs, this is utter nonsense, but my meaning is that those top tier folks should not represent the game as a whole. As Shade has said, I think there should be challenging content at every level, but that's a function of content, not individual class or player ability.

Phalcon's Lacer is a 5xTR, which is certainly a factor; 1) Sorcerer Past Life 2) Wizard Past Life 3) Wizard Past Life 4) Multi-Class, Bard Past Life I think 5) Wizard Past Life. If he did EDQ at this level, that's the Wizard Past Life stacked. If he TR'd recently, drop that 3rd Wizard Past Life. He is wearing several bits of Epic Gear, not-Epic'd Endgame Gear, and 2 Supreme Tyrant Green Steel items. I can't tell what form he used, but if it were me, it'd be Lich for the INT boost and related DCs boost that it goes with. Lacer's Human, Wizard and Pale Masters can be achieved without Favor or USD. In order to reach this level, he's either VIP, or was, or own a fair number of packs and can sit tight on expenses. EDQ1 was not designed as a solo quest; Has Phalcon "deformed" the game? Has the Pale Master? The question of the possibility of a Favored Soul being able to do the same thing, if similarly Past Lived and Geared becomes irrelevant, as its clear at least one other class is more than capable of doing it, by whatever means is most expedient for their class and build, whether its "party hats", flesh to stone, or a DoT Spell. It should be pointed out, however, that a Pale Master at 20th level as MANY more spell options than any Favored Soul, and that their Direct Damage spells, regardless of DoTs, do far more damage than a Blade Barrier or Divine Punishment or any cometfall. This versatility was, doubtless, part of Phalcon's success, and yet versatility is not "game deforming". And this versatility can be achieved from the start, no Favor Grind, no USD.

Most of the top TR in a week? Is that a I don't know how things are on your sever, but I don't see that on mine. Nor do I see Guilds that are Favored Soul heavy, as there's always a shortage of Healers. We have a Guild of our own, and the attempts to recruit "Healers" even though we're Guild Founders, is pretty consistent.

But for all the above jibber-jabber -- and **** was I impressed by Lacer's 42INT build -- it's not a question of who is more overpowered. The above only illustrated that another Class can do what Favored Souls are accused of, and to be very honest, a minimum of research, revealed that these kinds of accomplishments are not dominated by Favored Souls. Thelanis, according to the Fastest Epic/Raid Time Worldwide Thread, holds the most records. A quick look at some screenshots revealed the following.

Nov 11/10 - Elite - Reaver's Fate - 6Man - 7Mins - Legion --- 6-Man Raid; 1 FVS, 2 Monks, 1 Fighter, 1 Bard, 1 Ranger. I imagine there was some kiting here, I don't think it "deformed" the game.

Epic Claw, 11/11/2010, 6 min, Legion --- not one Favored Soul, 2 Bards a Monk and a Barbarian walk into a bar...I mean did this. Is this "Game Deforming?" Could it be certain tricks and exploits were used?

Nov 11/10 - Epic - Claw of Vulkoor - 4Man - 6mins - Legion -- same composition, no bar included

Epic, Tide, nov, 12 2010, 15 min, Legion -- 1 FVS; 2 Barbs, a Monk, a Sorc, and a Bard.

epic claw 5 min legion -- solo'd WF Arcane, likely following what we've all seen on YouTube.

There's another completion with a pair of FvS, a Bard and a Monk, I believe, and these quests are just off the top. Claw, for example, as a specific set of things that can be done if one is careful. However, the only solo is the WF Arcane, but I didn't have time to explore the entire list. FvS can clearly be a healing factor, but I would say a Bards Enchantment and Fascinate DCs are even more of a factor, as someone was said to us, "No Bard, No Hard". I've watched them fascinate entire Mobs that allowed us to just move on without a fight. This is not considered "Game Deforming" either.

I have blathered on to reach a bottom line that I could have mentioned at the beginning; the suggested Leap of Faith nerf does not address the problem outlined alongside of it as outlined in the DEVs initial post at the start of this thread. It WILL NOT resolve the changes to the Game that have made "Tank-Casting" more viable, which seems to come into question more often than "Wing-Kiting" which the DEVs claim have somehow "deformed" the Game. A DEV has yet to answer the core question; What does this fix? Because as it stands right now, it doesn't fix the problem as initially stated, and as it stands right now, it appears to be a reaction to 1 early Epic Success in a single RAID that is still in TEST.

[budalic]

long rant about stuff I wasn't even implying

Dammit, I'm getting this a lot recently. While it may be a matter of personal preference, I was replying to people that said 'FvS isnt powerful compared to other casters at all', because I find that argument rather stupid when FvS is a very powerful class.

That doesn't have anything to do with wings nerf. I wasn't even speaking abut kiting. No need to throw a wall of text at me, because I never said wings should be nerfed*. I am, and always was, in fact, against LoF nerfs.

*I did say that some bosses should have better anti-kiting strategies, however.

[budalic]

SP cost multiplier = ASF% (before modifiers)? That'd still leave it doable, but for a shorter duration.

I don't really know, but the point still stands that casters can shieldblock and do damage at same time. Ideal solution will be making castertanking require some skill and certain amount of building for it, and doesn't overshadow AC tanks.

Your suggestion would kinda make it an excercise in geting most damage and self-healing w/ least amount of sp spent. (also, it would make Leviks undesired for FvSs, compared to Lorriks... kinda lame imo, since they are pretty similar in usefulness)

[Rizzyn]

Dammit, I'm getting this a lot recently. While it may be a matter of personal preference, I was replying to people that said 'FvS isnt powerful compared to other casters at all', because I find that argument rather stupid when FvS is a very powerful class.

That doesn't have anything to do with wings nerf. I wasn't even speaking abut kiting. No need to throw a wall of text at me, because I never said wings should be nerfed*. I am, and always was, in fact, against LoF nerfs.

*I did say that some bosses should have better anti-kiting strategies, however.

I didn't say you were support it at all, Sir. But I thought you had some valid lines of thought, and it spawned the rest. The Favored Soul is good at what it is good at, but I think we can all agree Spell DPS is not a Favored Soul Hallmark. I've seen both in play, and while I account my cometfall as amongst the meanest I've ever seen, I've yet to see any comets breaking the 1K mark. Arcane spells can do that, at the top, pretty regularly. I felt enough of those in the pit. It wasn't a personal attack, Budalic, but I think EDQ1 is a fair enough arbitrary benchmark, and that your subordinate debate hooked into some of my own thoughts. In the end, the subordinate argument doesn't support the nerf, and neither do you -- I understood that.

The core problem is not addressed by this nerf; I would like a DEV to explain why the Team feels it is necessary, and how they see it as addressing the problem at hand, even if it was by PM, and I will gladly communicate it back to this thread and the folks herein. The initial statement by Torc doesn't support the the idea that altering Leap of Faith resolves "Game deforming" tactics, and neither does the large bulk of this thread. As it stands, this is the "Alpha Strike" of opinions.

[Scraap]

I don't really know, but the point still stands that casters can shieldblock and do damage at same time. Ideal solution will be making castertanking require some skill and certain amount of building for it, and doesn't overshadow AC tanks.

Your suggestion would kinda make it an excercise in geting most damage and self-healing w/ least amount of sp spent. (also, it would make Leviks undesired for FvSs, compared to Lorriks... kinda lame imo, since they are pretty similar in usefulness)

Hrm. Point. Just a small little brain-spark as far as attempting to avoid the usual 'it works now it doesn't' nerf. Ah well, back to the drawing-board.

[Avidus]

<snip>...
I am, and always was, in fact, against LoF nerfs.

*I did say that some bosses should have better anti-kiting strategies, however.

This is I think the point that is trying to be made by several posters.

If LoF kiting is the issue, nerfing LoF just means that another form of kiting will start 'deforming the raid space'.
Giving the appropriate bosses anti-kiting stratagies (Chains, grease, teleport to/from, high-gravity, wing-clips etc.) would seem to be the overall better choice rather than whack-a-mole style nerfing whichever method comes to the top.

This all came up because a raid boss on a preview / test server was LoF kited right? So what exactly is the correct method to complete the raid? Tanking him is ineffective, you cant just surround and pound him due to his special attacks, so what is left? I guess you could bounce his aggro around using 3 or more tanks but then Favored Soul wings and the oh so talked about DoT's become sidelined, as you have to pace yourself to ensure the aggro is on the right tank at the right time. Now Favored Souls and others are 'sidelined' in the raid space...

Another poster mentioned nerf-fatigue... I am there now too. When this change happens, that's right I said when because I do think that the DEVS made up their minds already, I won't quit the game. I will just place another straw on the camels back while retiring my Favored Soul in favor of my WF Archmage...

[Aashrym]

Its not whining, just pointing out that if the devs think wings are OP, then they need to take a look at the real solo masters in this game, and that is the arcanes.

Palemaster, warforged...doesn't matter, Arcanes are still better as a whole in soloing epics. I have yet to meet a FvS that can bb kite the epic mobs with evasion in the ziggurat. I have tried and even after several energy drains they still made their save, that was on a max wis 1 tr fvs with evocation feats.

Their are times when divines have an edge and times when arcanes are best. That is the point, FvS are not OP compared to the other casters.

As to EDQ, no one quest should decide how op one class is to another. Thats ridiculous, compare the class with other classes with all epic quests in mind. Google palemaster solo and you can quickly see the vods, elite sins...etc all done by palemasters without wings. The hardest raids soloed by a FvS that I have seen where done with high healing amp, high con, shield mastery using FvS that gimp their strength and wis. The only reason they can do it is the no save on the dots, and enough healing amp to use the capstone effectively. In other situations it takes drinking potions and its not the class that is winning the day, its their pocket books.

Why would you not use implosion instead of blade barrier for those mobs?

You realize you are saying it ridiculous to compare the class with EDQ and we should look at all epics but your example with evasion mobs in the ziggurat. BB kiting with wings works wonders in other epics, implosion is a great spell, and there is no save on divine punishment. I would also like to point out that while you mention it takes potions to win the day for FvS's it takes potions on wizzies and sorcs too.

When I jump into a group and we find 4 FvS's in the party no on drops for a melee because we have lots of heals. They either melee themselves or cast offensively.

FvS's are not OP compared to wizards and sorcs, but they are pretty close to those classes.

[Rizzyn]

Another poster mentioned nerf-fatigue... I am there now too. When this change happens, that's right I said when because I do think that the DEVS made up their minds already, I won't quit the game. I will just place another straw on the camels back while retiring my Favored Soul in favor of my WF Archmage...

And apparently the reason for DEV silence is now made clear. Below are snippets from the Release Notes.

# NEW: Wind Dance and Leap of Faith have been modified:

* Leap of Faith: You are able to leap through the air to bring the fight to your enemies or traverse chasms that make normal adventurers balk. Using this ability costs 10 spell points. Uses of this ability recharge at a rate of one every 15 seconds. (5 uses, 3 second cooldown.)
* Wind Dance: You leap through the air, propelled by a gust of wind. Uses of this ability recharge at a rate of one every 15 seconds. (5 uses, 3 second cooldown.)

Well, I suppose we can test it, because that's one of two choices as I see it at the moment.

# NEW: The Angel of Vengeance's Condemnation effect has had its duration increased from 15 to 20 seconds, and now increases vulnerabilities by 10% per stack, instead of 20%.

AND a Nerf to the AoV Condemnation effect that accomplishes what, precisely? Other than limit a single DoT spell only castable by Divines, and to an extent Searing Light, Nimbus, and their Archons. All the other DoTs and Curses remain free to stack. It was a lively discussion while it lasted.

[dragons1ayer74]

Double hit to FVS. I hope that this is not locked in or ends up going live like this. At least give some way to increase the base number of leaps in your pool tie it to a stat or enhancments or both.

[Avidus]

I had a nice post all typed up, but you know what, it doesn't matter. Players had fun with wings and things that favored souls could do so the nerf had to come. Players will adapt, something new will rise to the top and the nerf will come. It is just the status quo around here it seems...

I also want to point out that it only took a few days to apply the nerf to this but other things go on for what seems like forever... /sigh ...

I just get the feeling that we are being strongly encourage to adhere to the three pillars of MMO gaming, healer, tank, dps. Make something versatile or creative even if they gave you the tools and designed a particular encouter where that is the path of least resistance and out comes the nerf cannon...

It's depressing really...

[Soleran]

Yuck on the 5 uses, I see where they want you to be able to use this as an escape mechanism rather then a means of overall movement BUT I did TR my cleric to a fvs specifically to be able to bounce around quickly rather like my monk.

The AoV nerf I dont particularly care about.

The wings nerf really does agitate me horrendously.

[Danmor]

AND a Nerf to the AoV Condemnation effect that accomplishes what, precisely? Other than limit a single DoT spell only castable by Divines, and to an extent Searing Light, Nimbus, and their Archons. All the other DoTs and Curses remain free to stack. It was a lively discussion while it lasted.

At least duration got upped. So it's not a pure nerf

[Aegnore]

I started playing DDO as a cleric and told myself i would never spend money to buy stuffs in game... But when i saw how cool, flashy and spammable the FvS wings are, it made me go and spend cash just to get some turbine points for that...heck i even bought the WF class along

So are you telling me, you're gonna nerf one of the "trademarks" and "selling quality"of the class...
Why change it now? is it because of the kiting ability? - I doubt, I bet its more of the combination of Wing kiting with the new DoT spells....

Why not just make changes on the spells or monster saves rather than changing something that is INHERENT to the class...

So whats next? nerf Inscribe Scroll? Dismiss Charm?

I'm telling you game devs with this move you can kiss some "earnings" goodbye..

[Rizzyn]

At least duration got upped. So it's not a pure nerf

Point. We'll see how it plays out.