Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Khurse]

Having both a PM and multiple FVS, I can assure you the FVS may need to kite to live but in most instances (haven't played the new raid) the PM can just stand there and take it.

I'll bite- what am I missing?
FVS has more HP's ( not a alot, but 20 give or take assuming same starting Con)
* PM Could switch to Wraith, but then FVS is up about 60 HP's.
** And of course Yugo pots Con pots switch the HP advantage to PM if it's in Lich form, unless the FVS is WF
FVS has more healing options with quicker cooldowns that heal for more (unless a WF FVS no healing amp)
FVS has more DR
FVS has (generally speaking) more SP's

Pretty much every piece of useful tanking gear is usable by both, so no advantage there.

So, from my viewpoint- FVS is a better choice.

But again- curious if I've missed something obvious.

[Aashrym]

I'll bite- what am I missing?
FVS has more HP's ( not a alot, but 20 give or take assuming same starting Con)
* PM Could switch to Wraith, but then FVS is up about 60 HP's.
** And of course Yugo pots Con pots switch the HP advantage to PM if it's in Lich form, unless the FVS is WF
FVS has more healing options with quicker cooldowns that heal for more (unless a WF FVS no healing amp)
FVS has more DR
FVS has (generally speaking) more SP's

Pretty much every piece of useful tanking gear is usable by both, so no advantage there.

So, from my viewpoint- FVS is a better choice.

But again- curious if I've missed something obvious.

Using the death aura. The PM tank uses death aura healing while shield blocking, preferable with shield mastery, and then burst heals if needed. DoT's for aggro, SLA's to supplement damage. I'm not positive it is better than doing the same thing on a FvS sans the aura and just casting heal as needed but the aura is the big difference.

It's possible I've missed something but that's how I do it on my PM.

[taurean430]

Again- the problem across the board is the power of the DOTS.

However, to argue that PM's/Whatever are just as good (or better) than FVS at this is false, as the FVS has the option to Dot-wing-Dot-wing ,whereas the PM can Dot-run-dot-run, (both can obviously tank, although again- by sheer number of spells for healing and PREs the FVS is better ).
Unless someone wants to point out why dotting and running is somehow superior to doting and kiting, I'm still going with FVS being more powerful.

Again however, the problem is not and never was the FVS ability to Wing, it's the ability to cast a DOT that has no save, same as Clerics/Wizzies/Sorcs .

If they'd have just put a save on teh DOT, this likely wouldn't have been an issue at all.

Instead they've nerfed a number of players reason for choosing to play a FVS, and have completely ignored the underlying issue.

I'm thinking a save or wisdom based damage determination. Either would be sufficient to balance a casting stat dumped build with a max casting stat build. And anything in between for that matter.

Although I know it's been beaten to death, what irritates me about this change is that the class gains flight at will (maneuverability=good) at level 17. Not leap of faith. This is not the same as an action boost and should never have been treated as such. Grinding out the favor for the class only to learn firsthand how it actually works in game was like a kick in the nads. Now we are seeing further changes which are limiting to the class ability. Although I admit the current model appears to be fair compared to what was originally discussed, it's still bothersome to me.

What catches my attention about the lama raid completion is not the class makeup of the group that did it. It's the amount of pots that were used to do it that way. Seems to me things were still in some kind of balance as it's highly unlikely that we'd see lfm's for the new raid on live with 200+ pot requirements. The knee jerk went too far, and in the wrong direction imo. Balancing the dot spells in such a way that we wouldn't see dumped casting stat builds getting full versions would have accomplished more all around. The AOV prestige was designed to be a boon and boost of viability to divine casters. Not str based melee fvs builds. At least, that was what I thought. Frankly I was shocked I had access to it on my str based builds.

[budalic]

Oh, for God's sake, PM burst heal is a joke. PM is only effective tank in raid situations when supported by someone casting harm. Arguing that PM = WF arcane or FvS in that department is rather silly.

A question for you: Do you know any pale master that can solo last boss (ie. Lailat) in eDQ1? 'Cause I know some WF sorcs and divine casters that can.

[morticianjohn]

I'll bite- what am I missing?
FVS has more HP's ( not a alot, but 20 give or take assuming same starting Con)
* PM Could switch to Wraith, but then FVS is up about 60 HP's.
** And of course Yugo pots Con pots switch the HP advantage to PM if it's in Lich form, unless the FVS is WF
FVS has more healing options with quicker cooldowns that heal for more (unless a WF FVS no healing amp)
FVS has more DR
FVS has (generally speaking) more SP's

Pretty much every piece of useful tanking gear is usable by both, so no advantage there.

So, from my viewpoint- FVS is a better choice.

But again- curious if I've missed something obvious.

Immunity to stun which seems to be significant for this encounter, reconstruct for WF PM, and from what I gather there is no significant difference in DR between well geared characters. FvS DR just comes easier.

[budalic]

Immunity to stun which seems to be significant for this encounter, reconstruct for WF PM, and from what I gather there is no significant difference in DR between well geared characters. FvS DR just comes easier.

As far as I know, recon doesn't work for WF Pale Master in lich form.

[wiglin]

I'll bite- what am I missing?
FVS has more HP's ( not a alot, but 20 give or take assuming same starting Con)
* PM Could switch to Wraith, but then FVS is up about 60 HP's.
** And of course Yugo pots Con pots switch the HP advantage to PM if it's in Lich form, unless the FVS is WF
FVS has more healing options with quicker cooldowns that heal for more (unless a WF FVS no healing amp)
FVS has more DR
FVS has (generally speaking) more SP's

Pretty much every piece of useful tanking gear is usable by both, so no advantage there.

So, from my viewpoint- FVS is a better choice.

But again- curious if I've missed something obvious.

Aside from some gear conflicts here is what the palemaster can get.

Chance to gain temp hp from demon consort bracers (lich's are immune to the negative level)
Chance to gain temp hp from lich form
Gain ~8 hp Inflict Light Damage (boon to undeath

Enough feats to take shield mastery with a couple of TR's and not lose caster functionality.

Stack all that with the aura and thats why people where crying nurf when screenshots of palemasters soloing raids were posted after they were released. The benefits may look small, but they all add up to stackable DR, to the point that Palemaster come out ahead with more dr.

As to negative energy burst. It does not have to be as good as heal to be effective, since you have incoming healing from 2 auras.

Its funny how just a couple of weeks ago people were saying how pointless high con, shield mastery fvs were in a thread posted about them, and then a raid comes out where they are the most effective and people cry nurf. This game is give and take. You are not soloing on a FvS in every epic without using alot of potions. BB is not that good in most epics (although yes some have mobs with horrible reflex saves for scroll farming and such). Too many mobs will save or not even run through it. When it comes to soloing epics arcanes can do it much easier than FvS, and thats without using wings.

[budalic]

Aside from some gear conflicts here is what the palemaster can get.

Chance to gain temp hp from demon consort bracers (lich's are immune to the negative level)
Chance to gain temp hp from lich form
Gain ~8 hp Inflict Light Damage (boon to undeath

Enough feats to take shield mastery with a couple of TR's and not lose caster functionality.

Stack all that with the aura and thats why people where crying nurf when screenshots of palemasters soloing raids were posted after they were released. The benefits may look small, but they all add up to stackable DR.

As to negative energy burst. It does not have to be as good as heal to be effective, since you have incoming healing from 2 auras.

I'm rather puzzled that all people whining about PM tanking don't play a PM themselves.

Like I said: find PM that can solo Lailat in eDQ1... and I'll admit PM are as good tanks as Divines/WF Arcanes are.

[wiglin]

I'm rather puzzled that all people whining about PM tanking don't play a PM themselves.

Like I said: find PM that can solo Lailat in eDQ1... and I'll admint PM are as good tanks as Divines/WF Arcanes are.

Its not whining, just pointing out that if the devs think wings are OP, then they need to take a look at the real solo masters in this game, and that is the arcanes.

Palemaster, warforged...doesn't matter, Arcanes are still better as a whole in soloing epics. I have yet to meet a FvS that can bb kite the epic mobs with evasion in the ziggurat. I have tried and even after several energy drains they still made their save, that was on a max wis 1 tr fvs with evocation feats.

Their are times when divines have an edge and times when arcanes are best. That is the point, FvS are not OP compared to the other casters.

As to EDQ, no one quest should decide how op one class is to another. Thats ridiculous, compare the class with other classes with all epic quests in mind. Google palemaster solo and you can quickly see the vods, elite sins...etc all done by palemasters without wings. The hardest raids soloed by a FvS that I have seen where done with high healing amp, high con, shield mastery using FvS that gimp their strength and wis. The only reason they can do it is the no save on the dots, and enough healing amp to use the capstone effectively. In other situations it takes drinking potions and its not the class that is winning the day, its their pocket books.

[budalic]

Its not whining, just pointing out that if the devs think wings are OP, then they need to take a look at the real solo masters in this game, and that is the arcanes.

Palemaster, warforged...doesn't matter, Arcanes are still better as a whole in soloing epics. I have yet to meet a FvS that can bb kite the epic mobs with evasion in the ziggurat. I have tried and even after several energy drains they still made their save, that was on a max wis 1 tr fvs with evocation feats.

Their are times when divines have an edge and times when arcanes are best. That is the point, FvS are not OP compared to the other casters.

As to EDQ, no 1 quest should decide how op one class is to another. Thats ridiculous, compare the class with other classes with all epic quests in mind. Google palemaster solo and you can quickly see the vods, elite sins...etc all done by palemasters without wings.

I can solo sins elite (pale master). So can my FvS friend, but 2x faster. Same whith all other stuff you mentioned. Hate to break it to you, but general consesus among players is that FvS is best class in game.

EDIT: Also, when did sins elite became OP yardstick? The quest itself isn't too difficult, really.

[wiglin]

I can solo sins elite (pale master). So can my FvS friend, but 2x faster. Same whith all other stuff you mentioned. Hate to break it to you, but general consesus among players is that FvS is best class in game.

If that was the case, then when I join a raid with other FvS's present and we have multiple divines none of them would want to switch to their melee class. Only the majority of the time they do. I here something like this "oh we have plenty of heals im gonna get my barb." If everyone thought it was the best class more pugs would be majority divines... but it is not even close.

Neither of us can make a general consensus of the player base, seeing as how many players don't visit the forums, and even after playing this game since beta I know I have not met the majority of players.

As to who is faster...what does that matter? If its done its done.

Sins elite just showed up with a quick search... the first return had VoD and Sins listed.

[budalic]

If that was the case, then when I join a raid with other FvS's present and we have multiple divines none of them would want to switch to their melee class. Only the majority of the time they do. I here something like this "oh we have plenty of heals im gonna get my barb." If everyone thought it was the best class more pugs would be majority divines... but it is not even close.

Neither of us can make a general consensus of the player base, seeing as how many players don't visit the forums, and even after playing this game since beta I know I have not met the majority of players.

As to who is faster...what does that matter? If its done its done.

Well, you are right... I meant general consensus among more hardcore players. The fastest raids are done with majority of FvSs currently. But most of players still think in pre-u9 terms.

I apologize for incorrect statement.

As an aside note, this isn't really calling for nerfs - I don't care which class is best, and which isn't, or **** like that. I like all caster classes, and will hopefuly have 1 of each some day (current plans are Wiz, FvS, Bard, Arty). Just wanted to point out that self-heal tanking isn't that good for PM in this thread, and that's why I joined discussion.

[Xenostrata]

Oh, for God's sake, PM burst heal is a joke. PM is only effective tank in raid situations when supported by someone casting harm. Arguing that PM = WF arcane or FvS in that department is rather silly.

A question for you: Do you know any pale master that can solo last boss (ie. Lailat) in eDQ1? 'Cause I know some WF sorcs and divine casters that can.

Phalcon did.
Just FYI.

Soloing is so much more about player skill than class. The difference is, FvS do it faster.

[budalic]

Phalcon did.
Just FYI.

Soloing is so much more about player skill than class. The difference is, FvS do it faster.

Oh, yeah, forgot about that forum post. I always wondered did Phalcon just shieldblock Lailat, or perhaps some advanced tactic was used. But yeah, I did forgot about that. I apologize (again).

[Skavenaps]

Phalcon did.
Just FYI.

Soloing is so much more about player skill than class. The difference is, FvS do it faster.

im pretty sure he did eDA and not eDQ. can link his eDQ post pls?

[budalic]

im pretty sure he did eDA and not eDQ. can link his eDQ post pls?

I think xenostrata is referring to this one: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=334011

[Eternox_Eve]

Nothing nice was being typed for the last 20 seconds after looking over this thread. That just means I feel as strong about this fun game as the next guy. I guess we will be changed, but hopefully not too much to the point where I have to be a babysitter with no options. That would just mean not playing my healers or just omitting the classes/races that DDO wants to make champions (sell).

Anyhow, DOTs shouldn't really be an issue. I mean wouldn't it be feasible that LoB would have a mantle against lower level spells? It's not like he's just some fat giant or fiend...he is really supposed to be one tough fight. No need to spam nerfs just make the borderline godlike end boss more borderline godlike...

[voodoogroves]

So the benchmark is eDQ1? Who chose that and why is it the one single determining factor?


I've not solo'd eDQ1 on either of my characters in question. My FVS can't solo the number of epics my PM can - yes the FVS can zing around and yes, generally better against some bosses and yes can bypass noise quicker.

Your question seemed to be about being able to take it vs kiting. My PM can take a heck of a lot more punishment. FWIW, neither of them are super geared and they both have around the same HP (lich, rage vs rage) - about five and a quarter with no yugo or exceptional con. The on-hit self-healing options for the PM are more plentiful. DR is basically a wash (and since DR is scaled arbitrarily by the system it's actually less reliable than the temp HP procs). Lich form, demonic shield and boon to undeath on top of both auras brings in a large chunk of sustainable HP. Sure, only one healing burst.

If you don't have a PM, try to imagine a high-healing-amp radiant servant tank with more feats and thus better DCs and spell penetration.



So for the arbitrary EDQ1 benchmark - maybe a divine would do better. Dunno, not tried. I know how far I can push with each in other various epic content and the FVS may be quicker and able to bypass some things but the PM is more about attrition.

[budalic]

So for the arbitrary EDQ1 benchmark - maybe a divine would do better. Dunno, not tried. I know how far I can push with each in other various epic content and the FVS may be quicker and able to bypass some things but the PM is more about attrition.

Well, what other benchmark do you want? Elite horoth? epic CAD? I'm pretty sure FvS is gonna be top in most cases.

We aren't discussing attrition, or general soloing. We're discussing tanking. PM, without outside healing, isn't really as good as FvS or WF arcane. And even with outside healing, Heal amp on a FvS built for it probably is greater advantage than all DR pale master can pile up upon him/herself.

To paraphrase certain person I know: 'Wizard is good. Insainly overpowered at doing some things. But FvS can do everything well.' From my experience, most of top TR-within-one-week-since-update guilds currently have big population of FvS; folowed by big population of Sorcs.

[voodoogroves]

Well, what other benchmark do you want? Elite horoth? epic CAD? I'm pretty sure FvS is gonna be top in most cases.

We aren't discussing attrition, or general soloing. We're discussing tanking. PM, without outside healing, isn't really as good as FvS or WF arcane. And even with outside healing, Heal amp on a FvS built for it probably is greater advantage than all DR pale master can pile up upon him/herself.

To paraphrase certain person I know: 'Wizard is good. Insainly overpowered at doing some things. But FvS can do everything well.' From my experience, most of top TR-within-one-week-since-update guilds currently have big population of FvS; folowed by big population of Sorcs.

Awesome.

Then we're talking about the 1% of players who can do this and the differences at that end.




This is a similar complaint I have to the "nerf instakills they are an easy button with a 45 DC" cries ... how many of those folks are actually out there? How many people, build or not, can solo EDQ1?

How many total players do we have?





I totally want the game to continue to be challenging for everyone and provide lots of options. I can't solo EDQ1, I'm not one of those players on ANY of my toons. So yeah, maybe down in the mid-tier I feel like the PM is more survivable.

I know where I sit. On a subjective level, I don't want things I enjoy taken away because one or two exceptionally good apples ruin the bunch.