Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Rosze]

My opinion on the subject is that the Wings as we call them are powerfull but not so that they should be nerfed. For many wings are the soul of the Fvs and nerfing them would take a part of them we so much love.
When my friend asked should he go Fvs or cleric i ofcourse said Fvs and the only thing i had to backup my opinion was one word "wings" . That worked had to say nothing else realy.
Aswell when i builded my Fvs i asked or guilds healers/healer cause she had many capped cleric and Fvs. She awsered Fvs cause they are fun and so adictive. She was rigth as usual.
I just love to go heal with my Fvs and many ask me to come heal and i usualy come cause i enjoy it. On a Fvs i fell its more fun than a job and i cant say if i would love it so much on a cleric. ( sry just couldnt leave the wings)
In my opinion wings are just so large selling point of the class. So i wouldnt touch it just plz dont.

There was also talk about dots. Yea they are realy power full but why do you think healers where gave something like this? I notice that in Orien theres tons of lfm healer only. So why dont people built more healers? Well in the eyes of most they are realy booring and the dots are a way to give them something more fun to do. For everyone that hadnt played a healer yet go and built one and youll aprisiate us in new way.

Kiting mostly the problem is TOD raid. Well my Fvs is many Tilda asked to kite or backup kite cause i have wings the problem is that the raid is so lagy that someone wings is nearly a must these days.

Meaby to be continued.... ???
Sry out of time

[broolthebeast]

Its a sad day when you take a useful ability and screw with it instead of just fixing the inherent problem (D.O.T. spells)

You want to un-sideline melee's as you call it, fine. Fix the dot's. Dont "F" with the wings. Ill have to re-think my game of choice depending on how this change plays out. Another great flub in a very very very very very long list of /facepalm moves by turbine.

[budalic]

Well thats the problem I would NEVER farm EoT for an eardweller IT takes FOREVER you have to do the entire quest which is what like 20 minutes at least? Why do that when you can just run 4 minutes or so of Dreaming Dark see if its there, if not recall and try again...

12 - 14 minutes on a (semi-geared - you know which char I'm playing) pale master, and I'm sure FvS can do it faster. You are probably right regarding DD, but I love the quest (EoT); and once 2 Eardwellers dropped for me on elite.

Regarding FvS... idk, I never tought wings are owerpowered, or that DoTs are overpowered. In my opinion, giving arcanes and divines more place in raids is ok. However, shieldcasting is OP; and rather silly - can you name any wizard in fantasy literature that had shield?

So, changes that would make game better, in my opinion: - 1) Nerf shieldcasting - should stop Castertanking; 2) Make bosses move faster, have wings and get angry at Fvs running away. Don't nerf Wings otherwise - should stop kiting, and not just wing-kiting. 3) Don't nerf casters any further. Buff melee instead - casters and melee should have similar single-target damage output, but give melee more durability (AC, DR); more versality and self-sufficiency (better trip, stun; heal amp, healing clickies, feat that gives barbs regeneration while raging, stuff like that. Also, more ranger and pally spells). 4) Fix archery ala Deepwood sniper - cool abilities you can use while standing still - should solve bow kiting issues.

EDIT: Also, Sword-and-Board damage should be rewamped - make it work exactly as 2HF, and adjust it down from there - if it deals too much damage, reduce attack speed or something. AC needs a complete overhaul, but S&B damage needs one too.

EDIT2: Added 'similar single-target damage output'. Not because I think melees shouldn't have good AoE abilities, but because I have never really given it much tought.

[Kabaon]

Every MMO has also had to nerf abilities to slow bosses due to kiting and avoiding almost any dmg also (DDO itself has done this and now are changing an ability that does the same thing but in reverse). Theres a difference between Designed kiting and unintended. Shadowfiends is a fairly decent example of designed in that kiting is maybe the best bet although tanking is just as viable if not more gear intensive. I can assure you that kiting LOB and all adds while anyone without any sort of ranged attack is unable to participate is not intended hence the changes.

So because of ONE raid, this ability needs to be nerfed? And possibly one quest (Invasion). At this point I'd like to point out that it isn't inherently the ability that is at fault. The fact is we are always looking for the fastest completions, for minimal resources, and the highest gain, and kiting helps achieve just that. We have ourselves to blame for that, really.

The Dev's have a choice here, they alter the raid so kiting is not the only safe way to complete which allows others to contribute regardless of class/build/playstyle, even if it means lowering the challenge, and upsetting the player base. Or nerf the LoF over a few quests/raids and upset the player base. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I know they'll pick choice two, simply because there probably less work involved.

Also DoT's are NOT the problem. Seriously, melees get unlimited damage as long as they live, casters don't, DoTs help us balance that. Simply buff melees instead of nerfing casters back to Pre-U9 dps levels (Which was **** in comparison to melees).

[Faent]

So because of ONE raid, this ability needs to be nerfed? And possibly one quest (Invasion).

I assume that's not why anyone who thinks wings need to be nerfed thinks it.

[Faent]

We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds.

NO. That puts wings on a 15 second cooldown after 24 seconds of constant wing-use. This is overkill by a million miles. Try wielding a lighter nerf-bat, eh? Frankly, anything less than 1 minute of constant wing-use is overkill by a million miles. I propose 3 minutes of constant wing use (3 second cooldown, 40 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds). But if you can't up this to at least 1 minute of constant wing-use, you're just being cruel for cruelty's sake.

[Jiirix]

Dear Devs, please don’t forget that players posting a lot on the forum aren’t necessarily representative for the crowd of DDO. I really appreciate the testing and feedback some players do here, but that seems to be the “powerplayers” point of view most of the time. A lot of players don’t play/grind DDO that much and therefore don’t run with only the best items and have a little less skill in mashing a lot of buttons almost simultaneously. (I guess most even use only the mouse and not hotkeys :0 ) Because some vets say something is to easy, overpowered or imbalances doesn’t mean most players would be happy with a change. It’s harder to tell what the casual player likes, because most of them don’t post here, but please keep in mind that most players aren’t “hardcore”.

I wouldn’t mind a end game pack with dungeons full of monsters that can oneshot every of my toons on sight as a challenge for our notorious underchallenged friends, but please don’t make the game more challenging by taking away perks from everyone’s toons. Because a lot of things that are considered trivial by the majority here at the forum are a major task for a lot of everyday gamers out there. It took me a year to get my first hero to level 20 and a few months more to get the favour needed for favourite souls. And now I read that you are going to nerf those wings I am just learning how to use because some end-game-grinders can use it to avoid a raidboss in a pack I can’t even play yet?

[mournbladereigns]

Its a sad day when you take a useful ability and screw with it instead of just fixing the inherent problem (D.O.T. spells)

You want to un-sideline melee's as you call it, fine. Fix the dot's. Dont "F" with the wings. Ill have to re-think my game of choice depending on how this change plays out. Another great flub in a very very very very very long list of /facepalm moves by turbine.

AS this will actually be a buff to my Air Savants wind dance, I approve (and yes I have FvS toons)

But the real problem is how much more effective kiting is with DoTs. Just whip off a quick spell and then you don't even have to be facing target. This gets multiplied in raids, as more players put on more DoTs. So the boss can get melted without being able to touch anyone. (and is highly effective strategy.)

So the best fix is to give Bosses more ways to attack/slow kiters, and to turn the dial down a bit on DoTs, though DP is the biggest offender right now, due to it being irresitible and easiest to stack. Combined with class that has among best kiting abilities. Trivialized.

also, lololol at wing criers

Not my Wings no! Then I won't be able to do it in 10 seconds flat!

[HarveyMilk]

It’s harder to tell what the casual player likes, because most of them don’t post here, but please keep in mind that most players aren’t “hardcore”.

I wouldn’t mind a end game pack with dungeons full of monsters that can oneshot every of my toons on sight as a challenge for our notorious underchallenged friends, but please don’t make the game more challenging by taking away perks from everyone’s toons.

Words to live by

[Seph1roth5]

I don't even think DoTs are really that overpowered. Does anyone ever use them aside from on a boss? And like someone (so can't keep track in this thread) mentioned, you have to be able to keep it at level 3 the whole time. I know in some fights like epic Von 6 or epic Zawabi's it's not easy.

When I know it's going to be a loooong fight I just save my SP for heals instead of trying to keep the DP up. If it's Harry, yeah sure why not throw a few DP up there.

Realistically, assuming you don't want to go through piles of SP pots, you can do more damage with cheap spells or SLA it'll just take a lot longer.

[curboUS]

Maybe something below will be workable:

- Reduce agro from DoT's by a releveant percentage number.
- Do not allow threat (gear/abilities) boosts on DoT's
- Consider the use of Wings as a 'flee move' that has a diplomacy-like effect (without roll).
- add incrimental sp-cost to wings between use (say 5->10->15->20 etc) and let 3s without wings reduce the cost
by one tier. So as long as you let 3 secs pass cost remains at 5sp.

[budalic]

Maybe something below will be workable:

- Reduce agro from DoT's by a releveant percentage number.
- Do not allow threat (gear/abilities) boosts on DoT's
- Consider the use of Wings as a 'flee move' that has a diplomacy-like effect (without roll).
- add incrimental sp-cost to wings between use (say 5->10->15->20 etc) and let 3s without wings reduce the cost
by one tier. So as long as you let 3 secs pass cost remains at 5sp.

I'd go a bit differently... Do not allow casting while shield blocking and 1 sec (or perhaps a bit more... 1.5 secs? 2 secs?) after you stop shieldblocking.

Make wings affected by chain/harried. Leave them as they currently are.

[Jiirix]

Maybe something below will be workable:

- Consider the use of Wings as a 'flee move' that has a diplomacy-like effect (without roll).

Now that is a really good suggestion. If one loses all aggro by using the wings kiting with dots won’t work anymore. Problem solved.

[Mister_Peace]

Evidently the devs think there is a "correct" way to solve the Lord of Blades raid. This must be true because they've clearly decided that one specific sort of currently feasible solution is "incorrect" and must be prevented.

Interesting take on this. It's too bad no dev would ever respond to a post like this.

[khatarsis]

really? because most of my new invasion runs have consisted of pretty much exactly that at the end fight ^^

New Invasion is done with bb, wings has nothing to do with it.... Clerics can do that just as well as a fvs, a group moving together like a team can do it even faster.

Never seen a full raid group stand around and watch a fvs kite a boss ftw. The class is powerful, excellent soloer, but imo it's not a gamebraker. The wings is what makes the class fun, the bb kiting makes it powerful, but it sounds as it's the new raid that has a design problem more than the fvs needing to be nerfed.

I've played this game since beta, this is the nerf that has annoyed me the most by far. It's not really needed... fix the raid design instead of taking the fun out of a class.

If this change come through I'll be a sad panda as well...

[Terebinthia]

Wings are fun. They are a lot of fun. I've genned a second FvS while my first is doing the rounds of other classes because of wings and capstone.

Please do not remove fun from the game because of the complaints of a tiny minority of end game players. Wings are fun for anyone who buys the class, the majority of whom will not be soloing end game raid content.

If it's a particular issue in one raid / adventure, fix the raid - there are several options with heavy gravity etc available.

[gerardIII]

wings are a non issue, seriously if it was catering to all dot's and flitting then why would we see nothing but the FvS/Sorc in this game.

Monk get their abundant step a slight more in cost not much.

50 to 100 sp you got to be joking as I know you would not want the same 10x or 20x on your monk and sorc that would be fair so 100 to 200 ki I dont know the sorc SP cost.

All the FvS wings are clipped already per PnP full flight is possible to a 20 favored Soul I believe.

again even if something is done it must effect sorc and monk equally.

10 ki for a monk is alot when he's not meleeing, for a lvl 12 monk with 30 Ki, only 3 Abundant Steps are possible (moving faster in Stormreach, moving faster to a quest ...).
A lvl 20 Monk with 90 Ki can do 9 Abundant Steps.
So the monks who want to spam Abundant Step have to max their Ki first. They have to melee for a few seconds at least.

A lvl 17 Fvs has about 2000 spell points, the Leap of Faith costs 5 sp. That is 400 LoF when in Stormreach, much more if you count the sp regen (5 sp every 6 seconds). The cooldown being 3 sec at the moment, 400 LoF = 1200 seconds, in that time the FVS regens 5 * 1200 / 6 = 1000 sp for another 200 jumps, 600 seconds and regen 500 sp, 100 jumps, 300 seconds, 250 sp. I stop here, that gives a total of 700 Leaps of Faith in Stormreach in about 2100 seconds (35 minutes).

700 Leaps for the FVS when the Monk can only do 9-10 and then have to stop 30 seconds to meditate, go to a tavern to regen his Meditate counter ...

The Monk can use this ability when he's actually fighting, for it's intended purpose: moving fast from a monster to another (beating on Horoth, jumping back to kill trash, ...), jumping farther, etc. when the FVS can use it for a ridiculous cost in a spammable way. It is like a Sprint Boost for monks (very limited) and like a free SLA for FVS (almost free).

Yes LoF uses sp, but the cost is so low that it doesnt matter much. They can drink SP potions anyway, monks can't drink Ki potions (I want Ki pots!).

[Lavek]

I think some people that work on this game should seriously try and play a bit on end game...I mean for real...just roll lvl 20 on some test server and try out the raids with all this delusions...

one of you have a fvs and kite around with wings while 11 ppl chase you and the boss and see how it goes

[Kmnh]

DDO bosses need more cometfall. The gnoll conjurers on epic chains of flame ae more likely to wipe a party than most raid bosses.


Imagine Lailat with cometfall. People won't ever try that "ball method" again.

Divines won't be able to center mass heals on themselves and power trhough boss fights. And the kiting fvs will learn his lesson as soon as the boss casts the spell.

[Hirosue]

Wow. so the dev team is going to nerf the thing that makes FVS so much fun by increasing the cooldown.

What a bunch of idiots.

why stop at nine seconds. Why not make it completely useless due to cooldown time like implosion.

Why is the dev team constantly looking for ways to make ddo just like very other cookie cutter MMO ? Tank,DPS,healer .

If i wanted to play such limited clicky fodder i would go off and sub to WOW or Rift.