Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Rizzyn]

I pulled this over from the Stalwart Defender discussion:

This is pretty much my concern too. The average tank isn't going to hit 90+ ac consistently. And this is the normal quest requirement to really see effectiveness.

Bear in mind, and LeLoric can correct me if I'm wrong. He's talking about the "NORMAL" quest requirement, which in the rest of his thread he states as being rather high at that level.

Defenders and twf ac characters would be fine if the ac thresholds were fixed and the easier method of dot and shield block is brought into check somehow. It's really that simple but unfortunately because DDO and the d20 system is step based and not continuous there is really no middle ground so they go from being ok to having really little use anyways.

I'm not sure where LeLoric stands on the Wings issue, other than he'd rather not have Chains be spammed, but the above statement makes no mentioned of Leap of Faith or any of the other "Flight/Jump" abilities. He specifically states that the DoT/Shield Block method is easier, and should be checked somehow. It is not Leap of Faith that is the game-altering tactic that it seems to have been perceived to be.

Look I don't want to be able to sit there and take no dmg whatsoever it's pretty boring but I also want there to be a reason to use an ac based tanking character. If there isn't going to be a reason to use it then I'd suggest the devs stop devoting resources to these types of characters, lots over the last few month's led me to believe they wanted to make s/b ac tanking viable again. New feats for shield users. Changes to intim to make it a more active play style.

This is a call to address Tanking and Tanking Classes and Prestige classes to make them viable not only in the new Raids but elsewhere. I personally still see tanking, but as I do not play one, I'm not aware of the challenges they're going through to stay "in the game" so to speak. One of the best I know is a Paladin/Rogue Evasion Tank, and even he admitted it was a carefully planned build.

However when the chance comes to implement the changes they made into working content they dropped the ball. There is little to no reason still to use an ac defender in Master artificer due to the mechanics of the fight. For Lord of blades the opportunity is there but due to high ac thresholds and inability to do a better job than shield blocking dot casters and barely better than 0 ac barbs and even then only on normal. I find myself upset maybe because recent development had given much promise and potential and now I see all that wasted.

Once again, the mention of DoTs in play. No mention of Wings, and no specific mention that these are divine DoTs, just casters in general. Again, LeLoric please correct me if I am misreading the results of the test. The mechanics of the Raid, and indeed, Defenders needs to be looked at. Even the DoTs should be under review, not simply a single ability that happens to make Kiting a bit easier, because there are other easier to acquire abilities that make it just as easy, as has been previously mentioned.

In no way do I think that s/b should be the only tanking method btw. I'm fine with barbs tanking but what I think should be the case is a s/b character should be able to dramatically reduce dmg taken in exchange for the lower dps and longer completion times. I do take issue with the ease of tanking alloted caster classes though. I think they own enough of the pie too but further grabbing a large portion of the tanking dmg absorption pie is leaving only few crumbs of the pie left for the big melee types.

Mmmm Pie. But I digress...even here, there is compromise, but the idea of a Caster tanking just seems odd to me. As I said, perhaps I run with reasonable types that like a balanced party, I don't know. I have seen the DoT/Block that people are talking about, but honestly, not too terribly often. Favored Souls, whose damage output does not match Arcane DoTs, aside, there seems to be a flaw in the root-cause analysis here.

[LeLoric]

Mmmm Pie. But I digress...even here, there is compromise, but the idea of a Caster tanking just seems odd to me. As I said, perhaps I run with reasonable types that like a balanced party, I don't know. I have seen the DoT/Block that people are talking about, but honestly, not too terribly often. Favored Souls, whose damage output does not match Arcane DoTs, aside, there seems to be a flaw in the root-cause analysis here.

The reason I never state any issues about wings is I already knew of the changes to fix them. At least Dot and blocking doesn't rule out melees. Endless kiting by fs Which is the best method of running the raid excludes all melees also.

Look I'm not wanting to pick any fights with the fs. I know it sucks to be nerfed and the non exploitative ( not CoC exploit but game AI and mechanic exploits) uses of leap of faith do suffer but it is a needed change. I would be all for leap not using charges in public areas.

[LeLoric]

Kiting is nothing new in MMO's. Hell I'm sure the current (or was it always) king of MMO's (WoW) has content in which you have kite or die moments. So I don't understand exactly why this is an issue (Don't blame DoT's, because thats not really the problem. If the people can heal themselves fine, and don't kite, doesn't that make them hate tanks?). And not everything can be tanked, or it can be given enough hp and damage mitigation (ToD Shadowfiends are strong examples, even some epic mobs).

Every MMO has also had to nerf abilities to slow bosses due to kiting and avoiding almost any dmg also (DDO itself has done this and now are changing an ability that does the same thing but in reverse). Theres a difference between Designed kiting and unintended. Shadowfiends is a fairly decent example of designed in that kiting is maybe the best bet although tanking is just as viable if not more gear intensive. I can assure you that kiting LOB and all adds while anyone without any sort of ranged attack is unable to participate is not intended hence the changes.

[Veriden]

This idea ranks up there with update 5 melee nerf, crafting using tomes and purified dragon shards and other ******** things to make stuff...this would have to be the third worst idea in the past year. so yeah, lets not change leap of faith.

[Rizzyn]

The bigger problem was kiting the boss who is super fast and the hounds and having other casters/dotters dps while any melee just stand and watch the show. This is the best way to do the raid by far as it's easy and poses the least threat of failure.

But if that's the winning strategy for this Raid, isn't the weakness within the Raid? There are other Raids where that won't work. Straight up Tanking has not been successful because of how the Raid Boss or Bosses are constructed, and so Kiting became the best strategy. As Shade has said, that can be done without Wings.

Shades suggestions are what to do if not kiting everything. If the kiting of everything isn't put in check then shade's suggestions would never come into play and melees would never find a way into the raid.

But why should everyone run the Raid the same way that Shade or anyone else desires? In time, other methods will be uncovered that are as successful, or someone will find a wall to stand on that they shouldn't be able to. The suggestion is that Leap of Faith is somehow exploitative, it isn't. No more than a fully epic geared Raid party would be, if it could be found and created, and I suspect it could be and more easily than a Raid of only Favored Souls. That one group had a startling success with 5 or so Favored Souls is not exploitative, it's a situational success that wasn't accounted for in the planning. No plan survives contact with the enemy, but you don't take away resources to make it challenging, you add to the challenge. You are clearly saying Melees won't make it into the Raid; how will altering Wings change that fact at all? Shade had melees in, but he was KITING as part of his strategy.

Leap of Faith has two uses really, first is to move around faster and generally is nothing more than a convenience factor. The second is to continually kite extremely dangerous mobs allowing fs to continually avoid danger while using bb/dp to dps down the mob. Sad that the second funcion which does need to be reeled in may prevent some of the versatility of the first but sometimes that happens. Get a pendant of time and run around everywhere like the other classes do.

Divine Punishment is a brand new spell. It was not a factor in the initial creation or planning of Favored Soul or the Leap of Faith. It allowed them to make better use of their blade barriers, and for us, allows us to get where we're needed at times for the sake of healing. In Raids, I barely ever use it, and while there are some times where it is very useful to have, it is hardly a game changer. No Divine is hitting in the 1000s or 2000s of points with their spells, and the fact is -- we're supposed to be healing a balanced party. If group wants to beat it with a bunch of FvS, Clerics or Pale Masters -- why shouldn't they?

Some of the very best players in this game play fs and refer to them as the "easy button." Why? Because of Leap of Faith.

Really? Just for Leap of Faith? Self-Healing, 10/optional DR, or a Healing/Damaging Captstone have nothing to do with it? Even Shade is clear that it is the Quest, The Raid that needs tweaking, the class doesn't need nerfing. For a time, the complaint was that everyone was a Pale Master or that every Dark Monk had their crazy punch set for double-strike. Wings are not breaking the game. It is not a nerf that resolves anything, and that is why there is a hue and outcry. That a small percentage have an inflated perception of its "dangers" is hardly a reason to alter a Class ability that, until recently, wasn't a problem. There ARE plenty of other Raids.

Changing a Boss to throw more chains around is counterproductive to all the other classes and forces them to eat the brunt of the changes. Sometimes you just got to sit up and take your nerf bat swings like a man because they are warranted and then just say "thank you sir may I have another"

I would if someone could make any kind of solid explanation as to why it was necessary. I haven't read you asking for more Defender nerfs, or anyone else for that matter. Heavy Gravity would not force the brunt onto anyone else, it would prevent Kiting, which, it seems, is the goal. Or at least, it would attempt to minimize it. It is done in Dream Dark, why not in LoB or MA? These are TWO Raids, in the testing Phase, being hit up by groups that are not representative of the community as a whole and who are skilled, geared, and experienced in beating up these kinds of things. The change will not make Kiting less necessary in that Raid, by your own words, it's the most viable strategy -- with or without wings.

[Yalina]

FVS is fun to play, and the best in that class the wings, period. Turbine wants to nerf them cause they failed with their new raids miserably, well I have an advice for them, dont release the new quests, try to make something else, dont kill other people's fun. Once again, wings are fun, everyone who ever played with an FVS loves those wings. If they nerf it, well, I hope they know, most of us wont tolerate it... I will just send my FVS for a longer vacation, doing a couple of TR with her (barbarian lives just for the extra hp, with the damage boost changes it seems they wont get hit by the nerf hammer) - but I will surely miss the unique feeling that wings give me all the time. Nerfing wings = stabbing players' heart = not GOOD.

[Vengeance777]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

That sounds perfect. Any chance of making it recharge faster in public areas? I like spamming the wings while running around town.

[ormsbygore]

*Appologise ahead of time*
I have not read the entire thrread, sorry if my idea has already been stated and shot down.

We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

I like this a lot. Cuts down on the spam-ability that I enjoy in Leap of Faith, but gives it some balance while keeping it semi-spamable.

***

Before I found that part of this thread I wanted to suggest a "threat reduction" mechanic to help against the boss kiting problem and possably to increase the usefullness of Leap of Faith as a "RUN AWAY!" tool.(Kind of like an automatic Diplomacy mechanic, with an added negative threat bonus thrown in there)

Example:
Using your Leap of Faith ability triggers an effect called Calming Presence that lasts 20 seconds. Calming Presence puts the Hero at the bottom of the Monsters hate list, but doesn't remove the Hero from it. Also, if the Hero isn't close enough to another party member when Calming Presence is active, then the Monster won't find another target to hate close enough and will go after the Hero. Additionally, you gain a -75% threat multiplier to all attacks (melee, ranged, and spells).

^^
My copy/paste-fu may be a little skewed atm, semi inebriated at the time of making this post. Even if the balance or mechanics don't sound right, I think I got the idea across. Diplomacy's shifting aggro mechanic when activated, with an added bonus of negative threat that lasts a few seconds(doesn't have to be 20, but that is what I think would work). That idea coupled with the limited uses and fast recharge may make it less inviting as a boss kiting strategy, and more of an "Oh ___!, I stole aggro.....get me out of here!" tool.


Sorry if I was a bit repetitive, but there is my thoughts on the subject of improving/nerfing Leap of Faith,

~Nim

[walkingwolfmike]

Just leave our FvS alone.

I'm sure the Dev team will have enough to deal with when articifers go live and whateer bugs may occur, as well as the usual plethora of after update bugs that always emerge.

Really, i feel like this is so unneeded and unwarrented.

Instead of finding ways to change up a class that has been fine since its inception, go and fix the army of bugs that are still in game from update 5.

I really wish i could say all that i really am thinking at the thought of ANY sort of wing clipping, but, a ban just isn't high on my list of things to aquire.

[jarod225]

you gimP the wings，you gimp the fvs，you loss your customers

[CrankVulcan]

I like the idea closer to the beginning of this thread. If the player with agrro is out of range for more than 5 seconds at a time, have the boss chain 40+ DC disintegrates and Power Word Stuns. You have to buy Favored Soul for a reason. I'm interested in hearing what the promised replacement is for this incredibly fun ability. It needs to be something like a 100SP fly spell.

[Rumbaar]

Turbine, Turbine, Turbine ... next you'll be telling me you'll be diluting the D&D dice notation from 1d6 to something silly, like 1-6.

But announce some crazy change to distract from some major issue over there ... I'm scared of what the issue is that requires such a crazy action announcement.

[kitsune_ko]

The reason I never state any issues about wings is I already knew of the changes to fix them. At least Dot and blocking doesn't rule out melees. Endless kiting by fs Which is the best method of running the raid excludes all melees also.

Look I'm not wanting to pick any fights with the fs. I know it sucks to be nerfed and the non exploitative ( not CoC exploit but game AI and mechanic exploits) uses of leap of faith do suffer but it is a needed change. I would be all for leap not using charges in public areas.

A serious DoT review is the needed change, not gimping Leap of Faith. When an already nerfed class skill of just being able to move fast is being treated as an an exploit to be fixed, who's next on the list then after FvS? The monks? People with striding? Someone is always going to be faster and is going to be the one "Kiting".

I paid real money for access to the FvS class. Part of what I paid for was the class skill "Leap of Faith". If I wanted to just play a cleric and with no good PRE's; thats an option thats available to everyone for free.

I keep hearing this: "FvS and DoT and BB, They PownzerZZ everything! Its not fair! Nerf! NERF!!!11!!".

I must be playing a different game then the rest of you because in two years, I have NEVER seen a raid, or even a quest, where the FvS did all the work and everyone else goes AFK waiting for his uber-leet Leap of Faith kiting skills to bring the big boss down.

But from how often its mentioned, you would think every raid from Tempests Spine up is ran only by this method.

And if they are doing it solo? Really who cares then Turbine? WF PMs have been running all content from epics down solo since their implementation, I dont see anyone screaming for their heads on a platter for their ability to run content solo, and probably much easier and efficiently then trying to BB epic mobs to death.

Dots are broken. No matter how deep Turbine Devs bury their heads in the sand; no matter how many other nerfs they throw out; it is not going to change the fact that it is the DoTs that are broken.

Kiting has been in DDO almost since there was a DDO. Now all of a sudden its a serious exploit that needs to be addressed? Really; if it was that serious, overused, or any sort of exploit, it would not have taken Turbines Dev team two years just to discover this class skill was infact a problem.

The thing that makes me most upset that this is a nerfage that is only going to hurt the players that don't DoT. The ones who are doing absolutely nothing wrong at all. The ones that like being able to move from A to B in the marketplace quickly; the ones who have to hit it 7+ in a row to catch up with a zerging party becasue they used a shrine. These are the people who are getting the shaft.

Its already been told in the forums what DoT users are going to do to adapt to this nerf. Shield block; and DoT between attacks. It's not even going to faze them because they have the fix planned to be able to keep pouring out their unblockable, unsavable, unstoppable DoT attacks, and before the nerf to "fix" this problem even rolls out.

Just fix the DoTs Turbine. that Shades DoT/Divines raid party just ROTFLMAO-stomped your new pack on elite; and without needing to bother with learning your little tricks and plot devices you worked so hard on developing for it to make it both harder and interesting to learn cannot possibly be blamed on Leap of Faith as being the reason it was so easily beaten.

This was done the same way all content can be so easily dominated since U9; by a party of DoT casters stacking it up. That your new raid can be beaten just as easily as any other raid and using the exact same method, is a sign serious design failure somewhere along the line on your part Devs. Nerfing Leap of Faith does not fix this problem at all.

Its a completely pointless nerf being implemented, that is in no way going to address the real problem, and it is going to punish the wrong players.

Other then that; I guess its not too bad....

[Jaid314]

Turbine, Turbine, Turbine ... next you'll be telling me you'll be diluting the D&D dice notation from 1d6 to something silly, like 1-6.

apparently, back in the day that's all the information you got.

like, the books would say something like "10-16 damage" and leave you to figure out how you generate that range on your own =P

so arguably, changing it to 1-6 would just be even more true to the original game ^^

[Tom_Hunters]

Changing Leap of Faith would be a mistake, Devs. A really significant one. If kiting is a problem, figure out a solution on the monster's end of things - not by altering player abilities that have been with the class since you introduced it.

Agreed. I guess if a boss is being "kited", it should be smart enough to use some abilities to deal with the situation.
Say chain binding, ranged shot, magic (e.g. Delay Blast Fireball)
There should be ways to deal with it.

It's a boss anyway. Not a doggie you own.

[Jaid314]

I must be playing a different game then the rest of you because in two years, I have NEVER seen a raid, or even a quest, where the FvS did all the work and everyone else goes AFK waiting for his uber-leet Leap of Faith kiting skills to bring the big boss down.

really? because most of my new invasion runs have consisted of pretty much exactly that at the end fight ^^

[Flixxer]

Well, to me wings on my fvs is one of the fun things in game and i enjoy using them as a spammable feat instead of haste and etc. But you guy are coming up: ohh we have developed new ability "divine punishement" we gave it agro and etc, but instead of nerfing that we gonna nerf your favorite ability which was for so long with us, because guess what - other damaging abilities cannot keep boss agro at all, only divine punishment in combo with eardweller can have him agro maintained.

SO, I am 100% against the idea of nerfing wings, nerf divine punishement other fvs damaging abilities, because you coming up with nerfing which was stable for too long. Empower tanking, because as game stands right now: get more hp and you are tank, sword and board concept is thrown into oblivion, because it is useless in current state.

Fix your raid, not smthing which is stable for so long enough.

BTW new invasion is where fvs have an ability to kite and survive mostly using bb, leap of faith and healing, so we have all those 3 abilities so maybe turbine must nerf them too ?
We come to the state where good geared character can be overpowering in one or another quest, that's a design which i like, so on every quest pack there are classes which shine and there are classes who become just a support

[Spectral_blade]

just my thoughts, but if kiting a boss is not intended, then why not give said boss an ability to teleport the offending player (the one with aggro and out of range for 5-6 seconds) directly to the boss, and make the player helpless for 3-4 seconds (possibly longer?) if someone isn't trying to take aggro, 90% of the time they won't(In my experience anyways, please correct me if I'm wrong.), so when they do, and keep damaging the boss, the boss should be able to punish them in some way (Imo anyways.)
This would reduce kiting of all forms in more difficult encounters (like some boss fights) where it was not intended to be done.

Just my opinion of course.

[Totensonntag]

Why instead of nerfing wings not just add a global debuff to some raid zones that prevents the use of them?
On devil battlefield there is a global GH buff, so it should be possible to add global debuffs too.
Wings could stay as they are now in the rest of the game world. Problem solved. Not?

[Valiance]

That's one of the reasons I'm fond of the idea.


Signs point to yes.

Now just make the FvS passive past life grant 1 "wing jump" per life (max stack of 3) with the 15 second recharge. Maybe even give them a 30 second recharge.

The cleric and FvS past lives both active and passive are really horribly weak. I know even 1 jump of wings would make me want to go through the nightmare of 1 (or 3) fvs lives. I luvs my speed enhancers.

V