Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Dark-Star]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

As avid user and abuser of both Leap of Faith and Wind Dance, I think some change to wings is good for game balance. Maybe 9 seconds is a bit much on the timer though. Some of the other suggestions players have made should also be considered.

Some kind of change will make melee more relevent in groups that use Wing-type strategies.

I don't think the dev's issues are only with Boss kiting, but also things like people's ability to solo raids.

How about just an increased timer when in raids as a compromise?

[FooWonk]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

I prefer chains inhibiting LoF, abundant step & wind walk. Only time I can imagine this being frustrating is when the boss is randomly aggroing and uses the chain effect.

The most challenging VoD runs I've been in is when Sully chains the main tank before running down to melee the rest of the party. It goes badly in groups that don't have a secondary/Orthon tank that can handle aggro until the main tank is able to reach Sully. Sully should know this by now and only use the chains on the top character in the aggro list.

[voodoogroves]

One more thing - you mentioned "feel much worse than a cooldown change".

The word you used was "feel".



Go play a FVS. Start in meridia, port to the 12 and make your way to the docs in house D.

Now switch to a monk and do the same thing.

That "feels" worse.

Now switch to a cleric with plain jane striders.




If the impact is how bosses are being beaten, chain the FVS. Give them Velah-like Cometfalls. Don't make the other 300 quests and all public areas feel "worse". We want harder raids and quests.

[Rizzyn]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

Continuous escape is not viable in a raid. If I get too far away, I'm just fleeing, and I am of no help to my Raid. There is also the question of knowing one's role in a Raid; my role is healing and buffing, primarily the first. I may need to handle trash, like exploding bats, but that is situational. I may need to handle a kabillion warforged as well, but that's just to get to the Boss. After that, I'm a healer, NOT a Tank.

The Wings are fun, but one can also continuously run and kite with the right gear without wings. Sure, you may get hit a few times, but quicken spell, heal, and off you go. If this is based on LoB, his Rain of Swords will eventually be a problem for you, a big one, if you miss the tell -- because you're running, and don't get to the safe zone. As a FvS, I would prefer Heavy Gravity or some kind of Chaining if necessary, but even that doesn't hit the root issue.

Kiting, on a whole, is the problem, for variable reasons, DoTs etc ... Wings just help in that strategy, they're not the source of the Strategy. Playing a Ranger utterly changed my view of certain quests, I've gotten through abusive quests without even a scratch because I can drop targets at long range. Bows are not changing.

The argument is that Leap of Faith somehow breaks Raids. It doesn't.

[Munkenmo]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Did you even read this thread?

Your opinion is WRONG, the majority of the posters are asking for chains to prevent winging so they can have their fun and movement speed left alone 99% of the time.

I use wings to get from A to B faster, if you give me or most others the option of a 300% increase in cooldown or the loss of wings in what 3-5 raids? It should seem logical.

Rather than ramming a change down our throats, why not try implementing suggestions, esp while lammania is up

[Rizzyn]

I don't think the dev's issues are only with Boss kiting, but also things like people's ability to solo raids.

People have solo'd Raids without being FvS. That one raid was successfully solo'd and only by a FvS does not mean the class, and players of that class, as a whole, are due for change. There's also been a major hue and outcry that Tanks, built Tanks, Defenders, etc. are no longer as viable as they once were, there's no discussion to adjust that at the root at the moment.

[shadowsaun]

People have solo'd Raids without being FvS. That one raid was successfully solo'd and only by a FvS does not mean the class, and players of that class, as a whole, are due for change. There's also been a major hue and outcry that Tanks, built Tanks, Defenders, etc. are no longer as viable as they once were, there's no discussion to adjust that at the root at the moment.

no doubt man!


DOES ANYONE ELSE HERE FEEL THERE TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT????

[voodoogroves]

I don't think the dev's issues are only with Boss kiting, but also things like people's ability to solo raids.

Is that wings, or just DOTs and a shield?

[FrozenNova]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

If this happens I will never touch either of my favored souls again.
Hyperbole and such, perhaps - but leap of faith is the single most satisfying button to press since Spiderman's webslinging, and I will be truly mortified to see it go.

Please, if anything, make important targets more capable of combating mobile players. While potentially possible, it is extremely unlikely for a group to combat any of the current bosses in this manner - and I'd be willing to bet the same will apply to the new raids once they hit live. All raids have their traditions, and if it turns out one of them is "spam leap of faith in a circle" then a simple addition to a boss' technique repitoire would fix that fairly quickly. There are myriad solutions that could fix this problem that don't result in a nerf to the sheer fun of the class.

Yes, some fairly talented players can use the combination of DoTs and wings to solo several raids. Key word being solo. You don't solo a raid for loot - you're missing 11/12 potential chances at your sought after artifact! You don't waste a 3-day timer for that. You solo it for the challenge and accomplishment - and the fact that wings make it easy is self-defeating. Nerfing something on the basis of easy gain of personal satisfaction would be somewhat daft - while even I'm aware that soloing a raid on a pure fighter is far more impressive than the same on a fvs.

Double Gravity: The Lord of Blades uses an ambient gravity modulator to briefly disable wings, leap, and slow the party's movement speed by 30%. The additional force behind the Lord's dropping smash causes a powerful stun effect on hit.

[azrael4h]

People have solo'd Raids without being FvS. That one raid was successfully solo'd and only by a FvS does not mean the class, and players of that class, as a whole, are due for change. There's also been a major hue and outcry that Tanks, built Tanks, Defenders, etc. are no longer as viable as they once were, there's no discussion to adjust that at the root at the moment.

Herein lies the problem.

Devs see no one builds tanks any more. Why? They broke intimidate, broke AC, and broke tanking entirely. It's dps-or-dps.

Devs see no one tanks in a raid which is very unfriendly to tank in. Why? Because they broke tanks and then deliberately designed a raid boss to reduce what few remaining aspects of tanking are left (HP....) so that tanking isn't viable there either.

Dev Answer: Must be fun! We gotta nerf fun! Can't have players having "fun" in this game now can we?

/sarcasm

[FooWonk]

In fact, change the aura to, instead of a stacknig debuff, create a stacking guard on the champion.
Then FVS can help make the tanks even more tanky and hold aggro.

^ I like this! ^

crown on self = condemnation curse
crown on other = add 1d8+1 to guard effect on champion up to 6d8+6

[pSINNa]

Now it's nerf the wings?

My ghetto haste is going to get the hassan-chop?

Just speechless, i'm so shocked i can't think of anything to say, kind of like being kicked somewhere really bad.....


Please don't kick me somewhere really bad,,, mmmmk?

[azrael4h]

Is that wings, or just DOTs and a shield?

Didn't somebody solo an Elite VoD with a 18/2 Pally/Monk once? Con-Opp + Torc + high AC/Healing Amp = basically unkillable. Might have took the better part of a day to do, but still...

[Kadagan]

Raise SP cost to 10 and see what happens... if it's still an issue raise it to 15...

wing x10 = 150 sp... i don't see people ignoring that.

It would keep the fun in the wings.. make their use more significant with cost.. and maybe make you some extra cash because the demand for mana pots will be another tick higher.


There are some great ideas here, but a cooldown nerf is one that will cause dissent among your player base.

Thanks for reading.

[Xenostrata]

Why not simply have wings and DoTs trigger each other's cooldowns? that way you would have to choose whether you were going to wing or DoT, but you couldn't do both. No need to nerf just winging around for the hell of it.

I guess this would be the wrong place to ask for my Sorcs wind dance to have its cooldown reduced?

[Attropos]

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

No offense, but that is grade A bull-****. It's fun because you can use it almost constantly and because it turns the favored soul into a speedy thing. You take that away, you kill the ability. When I want to get out of trouble? I spam it 2-3 times in quick succession. It takes almost always at least 2 wings before I am a safe distance away.

6 seconds almost kills wind dance. 9 seconds? Say good-bye to any sort of speed increase, any sort of "Oh ****" card, any USE for the ability.

If this change goes through, I have to say, that you can enjoy not having my money. I just came back from a break from DDO, and came back to enjoy u11. If this change goes through, I'll have no problem leaving for one of the many MMOs that are coming out.

Am I mad? Yes, because as soon as devs start listening to a few (actually -1- player) who thinks an ability is overpowered because barbarians don't get it, and taking away the MOST fun ability in the game, you're losing the audience.

There are things wrong with Favored Souls being able to kite the Lord of Blades everywhere. But the problem does NOT lie with wings' cooldown/cost. As Nick said earlier, throw in a fort save (or better yet, a will) or something for half damage on dots, and make it so you cant wing while chained. Fixed without ****ing off every person who plays a fvs

[voodoogroves]

Didn't somebody solo an Elite VoD with a 18/2 Pally/Monk once? Con-Opp + Torc + high AC/Healing Amp = basically unkillable. Might have took the better part of a day to do, but still...

I bet with con-op, torc, great DR and a mess of guards you could solo VOD on a ferret.

[Kace]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

In my opinion, one problem is that Leap and the Wings are currently the same ability. An unstoppable escape/ close ability is very important for the one class (monk), and the very last thing that you should give the other (FS). I think you should split the two. Wings can be used continuously for high mobility, but can be locked down. Leap can be used sparingly but can get you out of a pinch.

[FrozenNova]

I bet with con-op, torc, great DR and a mess of guards you could solo VOD on a ferret.

Would probably get it done faster.

[FooWonk]

Why not simply have wings and DoTs trigger each other's cooldowns? that way you would have to choose whether you were going to wing or DoT, but you couldn't do both. No need to nerf just winging around for the hell of it.

I guess this would be the wrong place to ask for my Sorcs wind dance to have its cooldown reduced?

In order for these to share a timer they probably need to have the same cool down time.

There's no way DP or the various arcane DOT's timers should be 3 or 6 seconds, and no way wings should be increased to 10 seconds.

If one just triggered the others timer...and timers all stayed the same, then cast the DoT and immediately wing. If the boss can't close the distance that you get with the wing leap + 30% striding + haste in 10 seconds between DoT+wing combo, then having these on the same timer isn't solving the problem.

To keep kiters in check where kiting is inappropriate, use anti-kiting effects (i.e., chains, increased gravity, confined spaces, etc). If tanks are supposed to be viable in these places, appropriately buff tanking builds to be viable.