Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Noelemahc]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

Personally I think this change is stupid. I'm tired of seeing nerfs every update. Basically all this game is boiling down to now is surround a mob, auto attack, and afk. There is no variance of strategy because every time a new one is formed it gets nerfed. So a group of fvs can take on a boss? Then change the boss. Don't nerf the class. A group of arcanes can take on a boss in a similar fashion. It's been shown before a melee can solo a raid with enough silver flame pots so I'm sure a group of melee should be able to take on a boss by themselves. Does it really matter HOW it can be done solo? Multiple classes can solo raids by pure skill alone, the strategy just differs. Killing off kiting is just another step in making this game a more dull and boring grind-a-thon. It's already starting to become lifeless as it is because every update something else is nerfed and variety in this game is getting killed off.

I personally thought the DoTs were stupid when they were added to begin with. Wall of Fire got nerfed because it was an easy button for almost everything. DoTs were added which is an easy button for almost everything and is worse than Wall of Fire. Take out the DoTs and add in more useful spells to support caster dps, but don't nerf class abilities that existed before them. Nerfing wings because of DoTs is just as ludicrous as nerfing SLAs because of echoes of power.

Maybe next Haste should be nerfed because players can move faster and that's OP. Sprint Boost should also be nerfed because being able to run away from a mob is OP. Ddoor should be nerfed because teleporting to the dungeon entrance is OP. Being able to move at all should be nerfed because being able to do anything other than press auto attack is OP. See where this is going?

[Khurse]

I second the suggestion of aggro loss, it makes sense!

..but that could be abused as well....oh wait! Anything not thought out fully can be abused...**** lets just nerf it

Of course the aggro loss can (and would) be abused.
Just like summoning a FVS to him after the FVS tries to kite won't work and will be abused, it would be easy enough to cast your spell,get summoned, hit Leap,get summoned,hit leap and lock the boss into a cycle wehre's he's even more useless than he is now.

The problem seems to be (again) that despite their claims to the contrary, the devs don't actually play the game or understand the underlying mechanics that players continue to use to beat their system.

Blade barrier kiting doesn't work on Mobs with high reflex saves/evasion. There's a balance.
The DOTs can be cast far outside of melee range, do massive damage with some of the best Dmg/SP in the game, they have no save, and there is very little resistance from any Main game boss. There is no balance.

The balance issue is not from the wings and has nothing to do with the wings.

[NeutronStar]

Is this a Wings issue or a Kiting issue?

It's a "poor Boss AI" issue. Bosses should not be stupid enough to follow a toon through Blade Barriers if they have no hope of catching them.

[smatt]

For some reason this OLD, well not that old but likely before many DDO players were out of diapers, came to mind...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gArUEEE1OF8

And while the song is really about war being a mistake.... But anyway...

By far the bigger problem are the DoT's.. Yes I love them as well..... But it's pretty broken.... Wings.. Ya they're broken is some places as well..... But increasing cooldown and or increasing the SP cost to 10 isn't going to solve much of anything, and will simply **** off a bunch of people into gamer geek fits of nerd rage. I'm just sayin' the Dev team is "Askin' fer it"

There's much bigger fish to fry..... If we're talkin' game breaking abilities...

[Rizzyn]

Blade barrier kiting doesn't work on Mobs with high reflex saves/evasion. There's a balance.
The DOTs can be cast far outside of melee range, do massive damage with some of the best Dmg/SP in the game, they have no save, and there is very little resistance from any Main game boss. There is no balance.

The balance issue is not from the wings and has nothing to do with the wings.

This is much closer to true, than the idea that "Kiting" and thus "Wings" are the issue.

This is true for all DoT spells, and while DP can be punishing, it does not reach the devastating potential of Arcane DoT damage per tick after Elemental Curse and triple stacking it. Even if the Arcane Elemental DoTs have a half save, they are still more damaging than DP.

[Darkshire]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

Perception is in the eye of the beholder, or something. Torc's proposed changes may not kill the ability, but it sucks the fun out of the ability for the people actually playing the class full time, and that's a whole other kettle of fish that doesn't even take game design into account, some would say that's been the case in general for a while now. ;p

Seriously, the FvS class is prominently displayed as a premium class on splash loading screens in DDO. Far fewer people are going to go VIP or heavy into premium to access the amount of adventure packs needed to grind out 2500 favor , or pay money for the TP to get it outright, if they hear the orchestra of fury that'll start playing if the above referenced nerf goes through as stated. I suggest emailing your accountants.

So allegedly, the devs have already had their eye on the ability and others like it before any certain person whingefested about it, but the timing sure is suspect. That aside, there's too many other ways to fix the problem that wouldn't make Leap of Faith a non-selling point for the class. Most of them aren't as easy to implement, but if you go for the easy way out knowing that, shame on you.

1. Chains = No Wings. Can it be that hard to implement? Really? Most people wouldn't raise a fuss about this being put in the game at all.

2. Out of melee range = Something Bad Happens. Use your imagination. An excellent suggestion early on was for the boss's intended target being out of melee range to cause an aggro reduction/dump, putting someone else who might not be prepared for it in the hot seat. I'd find it amusing if the aggro switch was random and the LoB blitzed one of the healers in the face, but that might be too cruel. If Velah can throw out cometfalls of doom if people 't stay out of combat with her for too long, this is another reasonable solution. Why limit this (or #1) to the new raid(s)?

3. Put DoT spells under review instead. This might make people upset for different reasons, but DP, and to a lesser extent the arcane DoT spells, seem to be a common whipping boy for being nerfed in some way. Why this seems to be overlooked by anyone with a voice in the company whenever it gets brought up is beyond my understanding.

4. Use only half a sledgehammer. Since Torc seems a little too eager to go with the easy way out, at the very least, understand that 9 seconds + 10 mana cost is an adjustment more like sandblasting a soup cracker. While most if not all FvS would rather see the ability left alone, a 5 second cd between wings seems far more reasonable. I can't speak to whether upping the mana cost would be noticed or not.

In conclusion, while game balance and making the new raids the best they possibly can be is important, if there's a lot less people left to run them, they basically fail no matter how good they are. I suggest avoiding that outcome altogether if possible by being a little more evenhanded with any adjustments in the next update. Thanks!

[garynash7070]

Come on now Eladrin et al Developers and give us all a break. You guys are the ones that designed the FVS and added the wing ability. Just because people are having a tough time in a quest you guys designed or you feel Blade Barrier kiting and winging is OP should not justify you nerfing Leap of Faith. It is fine just like it is.

I have a question for all of you Developers: what is with all the nerfing that has gone on in the last 5+ years I have played this game? Just because there are characters that can or can't do something doesn't give you a justification to ruin it for the people that have spent countless time and effort to get their characters where they are. Does Turbine and the Development team want to play Communism with our game. That is right I said OUR GAME. For without us the players and payers you would not have a job. I am getting sick to death with all the NERF THIS NERF THAT stuff you guys are doing. Seems to me, just when someone gets their toons semi-where they want them you change things.

You know what it looks like to me? You know what they say about if it walks like something, talks and acts like something, it normally is that something. Well that something is GREEDY MONEY GRUBBING WORMS! I have spent a ton of money on this game as I am sure alot of others have only to see the "POWERS THAT BE" ruin it for alot of people for too many reasons to be named, and it all comes full circle to GREED. Well I could say lack of planning, development, proofing, trial and error, but I didn't did I? Yeah I think I just did. I am normally not this irate, but darn it (wish I could say what I really wanted to) I am tired of all of this.

I love this game and I know alot of other people do too. We all want it to succeed and stay playable for years to come, as I am sure you the Turbine Team does, but when is this all gonna stop? I appreciate greatly all the new things you guys are trying to come up with like the new update, the crafting, update of epic items et al, but don't put a class out with a feat or whatever and let everyone get used to it, incorporate it into their skill sets and then NERF IT.

I can't say anymore cuz I am just getting madder and madder.

[shadowsaun]

Come on now Eladrin et al Developers and give us all a break. You guys are the ones that designed the FVS and added the wing ability. Just because people are having a tough time in a quest you guys designed or you feel Blade Barrier kiting and winging is OP should not justify you nerfing Leap of Faith. It is fine just like it is.

I have a question for all of you Developers: what is with all the nerfing that has gone on in the last 5+ years I have played this game? Just because there are characters that can or can't do something doesn't give you a justification to ruin it for the people that have spent countless time and effort to get their characters where they are. Does Turbine and the Development team want to play Communism with our game. That is right I said OUR GAME. For without us the players and payers you would not have a job. I am getting sick to death with all the NERF THIS NERF THAT stuff you guys are doing. Seems to me, just when someone gets their toons semi-where they want them you change things.

You know what it looks like to me? You know what they say about if it walks like something, talks and acts like something, it normally is that something. Well that something is GREEDY MONEY GRUBBING WORMS! I have spent a ton of money on this game as I am sure alot of others have only to see the "POWERS THAT BE" ruin it for alot of people for too many reasons to be named, and it all comes full circle to GREED. Well I could say lack of planning, development, proofing, trial and error, but I didn't did I? Yeah I think I just did. I am normally not this irate, but darn it (wish I could say what I really wanted to) I am tired of all of this.

I love this game and I know alot of other people do too. We all want it to succeed and stay playable for years to come, as I am sure you the Turbine Team does, but when is this all gonna stop? I appreciate greatly all the new things you guys are trying to come up with like the new update, the crafting, update of epic items et al, but don't put a class out with a feat or whatever and let everyone get used to it, incorporate it into their skill sets and then NERF IT.

I can't say anymore cuz I am just getting madder and madder.

at least people are neg repping you for sharing your very valid opinion!

[Jaid314]

speculation:

in the new raid, you are "supposed" to have a melee tank. but, because the boss repeatedly spams debuffs that take away max HP, thereby removing the only thing that might have made a melee tank reasonable (that is, AC is a joke now and does absolutely nothing unless you specialise in it to a point where you don't have the DPS/threat to hold aggro, unless you're a maxed-out tank in a group consisting entirely of low-threat melees who are also usually low DPS).

furthermore, as i understand it, the boss chains the tank, which further reduces a melee's aggro, *really* reduces their ability to get aggro back, and *drum roll* doesn't work on favored soul wing ability to my knowledge.

so, actually, in this case, wings are allowing people to kite when it would otherwise be impossible, and are avoiding one of the crippling debuffs (the max HP reducing one).

this is apparently perceived as being unbalanced. now, perhaps there is supposed to be some way to remove the boss's crippling HP debuff, and that is what you're supposed to use to keep the tank from being slaughtered after tanking for more than a minute or three. if so, last i heard we haven't found it (maybe someone should try bless; it removes the debuff from the AoV's light thing, no?).

but the simple fact is, the REASON anyone would consider using a favored soul to kite as ideal in that case is because the game continues to be designed such that melee tanking becomes less and less viable, and also less and less desirable. this raid where you get a debuff when you're in melee that reduces your max HP, combined with an ability being used on you that reduces mobility and attack speed (thereby decreasing aggro generation) is only making that worse.

the solution to the problem is to *stop screwing over the melee tank*, not to punish people for using the tactic that works.

seriously. let tanks generate enough threat to tank, and let them have some actual damage mitigation that works, and nobody will kite with a favored soul. make it worse to be at range from the boss, instead of being better, and you'll find that people will stop wanting to be out of melee range.

add some nasty attack spells to the raid bosses. heck, both the lord of blades and toven are artificers, right? give them prismatic strike, and have them use it when someone is at range that they have aggro on. 1d6 per caster level of sonic, force, and fire damage plus knocked down and dazed (and a melee debuff... seriously, this should debuff casting speed as well or something like that) will guarantee anyone hit by it isn't going to be kiting much of anything.

imo, that would be a much better "quick fix" to the problem. that and actually helping out melee tanks in both threat generation and damage mitigation.

[Eladrin]

1. Chains = No Wings. Can it be that hard to implement? Really? Most people wouldn't raise a fuss about this being put in the game at all.

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

[badbob117]

I do not want my wings clipped

If the devs are spending time re-working the wings for a fvs can we at least for the sake of everything divine and great about the class, CHANGE THE FREAKING COLOR OF THE WINGS.

I will take this nerf like a man if you just change the color from its yellow snow divine pee color to a nice baby blue or white wings. If i log in one day and all of a sudden my cooldown is slowed and the wings are still Urine colored i'm gonna be ****ed! Change the color well you are working on cooldown! I think most of us would be happy with this sacrifice to cooldown as long as we get a Color overhaul.

Please devs , we have been beggin on our hands n knees for years now! No one likes pee colored wings! Now is your chance to make it right!

[Rizzyn]

Changing Leap of Faith will not fix kiting. Changing Leap of Faith will not alter Kiting+Blade Barrier, as flying through the BB gets them hit coming and going, running through it in a faster pattern does more damage. As one Cleric fellow said, you can run around it in a circle to keep on getting the target damaged. Changing Leap of Faith will not change the damage output of of DoT spells, nor how aggro is managed by the system. Changing Leap of Faith will not stop Kiting, as it is a viable strategy used by more classes than just those with some kind of aerial form of escape. Leap of Faith has not marginalized Tanks, Kiting strategies based on party composition may have. Leap of Faith has not marginalized Melee, kiting and DoTs may have. Leap of Faith is not the problem.

It is conceded that a change to AI, Raid Boss, or otherwise, can affect the game on whole with Lag and other difficulties. So, this cannot be changed at this time. Understood.

However, changing Leap of Faith does nothing to change how aggro will be managed, how hard DoT spells will be hit, and it will not put an end to kiting in Raids IF that is the best strategy for the group at hand. I've never been in a full Raid, and watched Harry be kited. Never seen Suulo kited. You can't kite in HoX, you need those blasted puppies first. As a Healer, I prefer a balanced party, I want to see an awesome Tank at work, and heal an awesome Barbarian, and maybe help handle the trash when necessary. I can "Tank" in the Manufactory, but LoB, Sally, and Ronny will invariably blow me away if I try it on them, and I daresay that would be the case with most FvS.

Leap of Faith is not the problem. If there are Raid mechanics at work to stop Leap of Faith, High Gravity, Chains, or electrified grease or what have you, I don't think anyone will take issue with that, as those things will effect EVERYONE that attempts to kite. Torc also indicated that there would be some kind of "Anti-Rez" field in place? If such a thing can be done, why not do something similar for Haste and Flight?

[Eilyen]

Umm, I hate to point it out, but anyone with a simple haste spell can kite nearly as well as someone spamming wings... If you have sprint boosts you will move even faster than wings ever can, and the AI doesn't deal with that any better than it does with wing kiting.

As for BB kitting, since when have wings even been close to needed for that? Even on epic, mobs still tend to happily follow you back and forth through the barrier as you run around in neat little circles, hardly ever getting around to taking a swing at you. We have been doing that since long before the FvS was even avalible.

Mostly what I see here is a Boss that has been spcificly designed to be impractical to tank, given ddo general lack of reliable tank swap methods, and general nerfing into obivion of pure tanks, then being confused when players try something other than tanking it.

[shadowsaun]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

at least where talking...some points

1. Dude, the issue is obviously a few raid bosses...your admitting that here. People DONT MIND THAT...its like, why tear down an entire house if the porch just need fixing? "but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change. " your totally wrong here... please read the entire thread
2. Why not nerf run speed then too? "Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously."
3. I thought the original design was based on DnD? "The original ability was designed with the monk in mind"

and to top it off...

I bet you nerf us, and buff the effects from the boss too...wont that be fun...

[azrael4h]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

In other words I wasted the money I used to buy the FvS class.

I was considering going ViP for the elite unlock, and I already buy $50 tp packs each month. Guess I'll have my $65 back into my budget. I also can quit gearing my FvS, since you're ensuring that the most fun thing on the class, the one thing that makes up for being in the most difficult and restrictive role in DDO; that of the healer. I'm not TRing her, as that rewards you. I'm not rolling another character, or bothering working on my existing characters since at this rate there won't be a DDO left in a couple of years.

In order to be allowed into groups, my FvS has to heal. This is at times frustrating to the extreme, with people cursing and screaming into the mic, while they have no fort, 6 CON, and are on the other side of the map from me. Every Cleric and Favored Soul who has played this game in a pug can give you similar stories of abuse; I can give a few where there weren't even any of either class in the party, and they still were cursed and screamed at! It almost made me leave the game long before I even started playing. The wings make... I mean made up for that abuse.

You are again balancing things on an extreme minority of players instead of the majority. This removes fun for the majority, and does nothing for the over-geared minority. Do you think that minority is going to keep you in business when the majority leaves because the classes they paid to play no longer are fun or worth paying for, or the packs they paid for they can no longer get into raids due to the "upgrades" to balance for the top 0.0001% of players?

I feel cheated now, out of both money I worked for and time invested into my FvS.

[-Zephyr-]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

It looks like a lot of players disagree here.
Negating the ability in less than 1% of the game is far from nerfing it in 100% of the game. I'd much rather be unable to use my wings when chained than suffering from the huge nerf you proposed earlier in the thread.

[shadowsaun]

cheated explains why Im so ****ed...I unlocked my FvS from favor...looking forward to playing a FvS not a cleric

[Darkshire]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

Well, props for reading my wall of text, or at least that one sentence. ;p

I would, however, contest the idea that it would feel much worse, based on the responses in this thread. Now mind you, I've already alluded to the concept that what people post on the forums is not going to necessarily reflect the actual general opinion of the people who play the game (and the class, I don't have an FvS in my character stable in case anyone was wondering). 'We believe" simply feels a bit tenuous of a status as far as the option goes to dismiss it out of hand. I'm certain the people who have been keeping track of developer posts are going to weigh in on the concept now that you've said something concrete as far as that goes.

At the very least, if we suddenly see a change made in the fashion that's been sort-of-officially proposed, please take feedback into account as far as to the permanence of it, as I'm pretty sure (though not enough to bet money ;p) that the proposed game-wide change to Leap of Faith is going to damage the class in a far worse way than just from a gameplay standpoint. Don't ignore it if it happens. Between the Offer Wall, original TWF nerf, and the bizarre original version of the chnages to Cannith Crafting, this proposed nerf may not be as far-reaching due to being centered mostly on one class, but it has the same potential to damage future customer goodwill as any of those were.

Keep open minds, it's your best defense against disaster.

[dkyle]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Why not apply the cooldown change only while chained?

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

But why not allow continuous use? Is it overpowered for a FvS to wing through town? From fight to fight? Are those long runs in Prey essential to game balance?

I don't think so.

It's overpowered to use it as a continuous damage mitigation mechanism, that doesn't impede the FvS's ability to damage their enemies. And the answer there is to fix the DoTs, to limit the ability to DPS while running away, and give bosses better tools to discourage kiting.

[voodoogroves]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

(1) Only to those FVS who are trying to kite or use it to escape as a tank. Most uses of leap of faith are NOT for this purpose.

(2) The true downside will be for FVS in places like VoD where when Sully teleports his aggro resets yet the laser and dots remain, thus the FVS who may have just had the archon up while they healed is all of a sudden, the chain target.


Chain us. Seriously.

If you don't want FVS to be the one stop shop and you want to stop boss kiting, have environmentally-caused chain-effects (including web, etc.) prevent leap of faith (and abundant step, and the air savant one) ... VOD, etc. but not thigns like Stalwart stance or similar (self impoved speed reductions).

But also please shed aggro or continuing DPS effects when bosses like Sully teleport.


While your at it, if a FVS names someone a champion, let's pass on some of the hate that the FVS generates from all that extra condemnation damage onto the champion's stack instead of the FVS. The current mechanic where a FVS names a champion, the champion gets hit, DP now does more damage, now the FVS out DPSs the champion and the boss switches FROM THE CHAMPION is kinda backwards.


In fact, change the aura to, instead of a stacknig debuff, create a stacking guard on the champion.


Then FVS can help make the tanks even more tanky and hold aggro.