Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Razvan]

Totally against that, that skill is what makes FvS fun for me. Just make binding chain bind those abilities or make the boss debuff any target it hits with a debuff that disables them or slows.

Exactly this...I don't care how FvS do in high level raids, I don't play those...but I do use wings for everything else because they're fun.

Make those raids debuff the FvS so that they have limited or no use of wings, but don't destroy an entire class because you didn't think before you gave them certain abilities.

Changing the way FvS wings work = FAIL!
and yes, I will definitely quit playing.

[Rizzyn]

Do something specific with bosses to mitigate wings around them (I'd prefer implementing general anti-kiting measures, however), but not the rest of the time.

If it must be done, this is the way. The stretch in Dreaming Dark where this happens turns a rooftop escape sequence into a running fight. Wouldn't "High Gravity' make sense around the Forge where the LoB is? Wouldn't similar or chains keep us grounded around Suulo and Harry?

But again, I'm unclear one how the Leap of Faith "changes the face" of Raiding.

[Fetchi]

Let's just get to the real issue here:

Bad A.I.

That's the reason why you can't get ranged combat right.

That's the reason you have 'overpowered' casters.

That's the reason why you have bad game play.

Focus on improving A.I., not on nerfing abilities and classes.

And please take everything that comes from whining barbarians with a grain of salt.

[voodoogroves]

And, to echo the above, DOTs aren't fun.

They work, they aren't fun. They aren't active, they aren't exciting. They are brutally effective. FVS aura stacks too easily as well, amplifying the DOTs.

Replace DP with an active single-target bolt that does big damage but at a big cost, save for half. Not damage over time. No idea why the devs are on a single-target DOT kick, but they are. I personally like area DOTs (ice storm, wall of fire, etc.) but if you have to change anything - change how the single target DOTS stack and multiply with vulnerabilities.

[sirdanile]

I can see a couple solutions to wings...

1. Nerf wings to give a small stacking run speed debuff and sp increase debuff, making it a bad idea to use it more than 4 times or so in a row.
2. Have bosses and (some caster)enemies that are significantly impacted by wing kiting throw out spells like divine punishment with no cooldown when an enemy suddenly gets farther away than normal running, for melee or bosses without magic access tell them to stand still and range with a bow or something, or have wings/distance be a factor in who has the creature's aggro.
3. Disable wings entirely in places where they break game mechanics.

[laniza]

Sad Panda.

Such a stupid idea ... sorry.

[shadowsaun]

Let's just get to the real issue here:

Bad A.I.

That's the reason why you can't get ranged combat right.

That's the reason you have 'overpowered' casters.

That's the reason why you have bad game play.

Focus on improving A.I., not on nerfing abilities and classes.

And please take everything that comes from whining barbarians with a grain of salt.

nailed it +1

[TheDjinnFor]

Eliminate the SP cost, increase the cooldown by 1 (2?) seconds, make it so that binding chain effects prevent you from using it, and give a few boss monsters some at-will teleport abilities.

Fair?

[voodoogroves]

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

And just to make sure we're all clear ... the ability may still be there, but if it's not fun and inefficient, folks won't use it.

Same comments we had around the spellpass esp. for things like extend.

It isn't destroyed. It's still in the game. Some people could still use it. I wonder what % of the more serious players trained it out on their sorcs?

(those being the players who are likely to solo raids, destroy epic content, etc. not the middle grounds who just like playing with the toys)

[redspecter23]

I'm sure it's been mentioned already but I'll toss it in as I haven't read the entire thread. If a fvs is leap kiting, it would mean he has the aggro of the boss. If he has boss aggro, then that boss should be doing all sorts of mean things to get that fvs nailed down. This includes devastating melee AND ranged attacks as well as crowd control type effects that slow or stop the offender (either with saves or in the case of short term cc, perhaps no save. Sally chain type effects being most obvious if they can be made to clip wings as well). Some bosses could even apply a ranged SP draining curse ability on whoever has aggro, thus encouraging the use of a melee tank or pot use.

I imagine a situation where a fvs starts kiting with aggro, the boss chains him, then applies a save debuff at range, then closes up, stuns, stones, paralyzes, then wails mercilessly on the target. Make us use multiple types of defenses to overcome the attack. To truly defend against the onslaught you'd need high ac, high saves, immunities of various sorts, curse removal, spell absorption, high hp, high DR, spell resistance and other defenses as well. A good "tank" need not have all these defenses, but multiple of any of them should make the fight easier.

Long story short, it's not the wings that are the problem, but the very generic types of mobs that have no ability to really hurt someone that is kiting them around.

[gloopygloop]

Let's just get to the real issue here:

Bad A.I.

That's the reason why you can't get ranged combat right.

That's the reason you have 'overpowered' casters.

That's the reason why you have bad game play.

Focus on improving A.I., not on nerfing abilities and classes.

And please take everything that comes from whining barbarians with a grain of salt.

[developer perspective]
But actually making the AI better is HAAARD!
[/developer perspective]

It's just like when they took glancing blows away from moving THF combat in order to "fix" twitch fighting. The obvious solution was to just make each of the attacks in the chain take the same amount of time for both stationary and moving THF combat instead of having the first attacks take less time than the final attacks, but that would be more work for the art department. So they just smacked glancing blows with the nerf bat and called it a "solution".

[rest]

A 9 second cooldown is an eternity in a fast paced game. I'm just now getting used to the 6 second cooldown of my air savant after spamming my monk's abundant step everywhere.

/sigh

[Khurse]

Seriously,

The DOTS that the devs put in and seem to refuse to put in saves for -either to negate or for half damage- are what's causing the OPness of casters vs Bosses.
The FVS wings have nothing to do with it.

I will point out that they've already said somewhere tehy can't really increase teh AI of bosses, because every bit they increase teh AI increases lag. And having the bosses teleport to the FVS is kinda a waste of an idea again, as the FVS can just drop another DOT and wing away. Boss has to TP again,rinse repeat.

Again- give the mobs a save against the dot -if they can't do the massive unsavable,unresisted, DOT damage, they're not going to be kiting in most parties.
Dots do less damage,FVS won't hold as much aggro, no need to nerf the wings that all the players enjoy.

[Venny]

A little reminder.... Favoured Souls are a Paid For Class... shouldn't your Paid for classes have an edge over the others. If not then why not just open the class for everyone to play. And if so I would like my money back

Monks have an edge by being Natural Harry beaters with their fists and the have a natural healing amp and they have a Leap. (Pay for)

Favoured Souls have Wings... and High SP. (Pay for)

Sorcers are a Free class and they too can have a LEAP and High sp and hit for thousands of points of damage... and heal themselves if they are war forged. Oh look I found the Arcane Free verson to a Favoued Soul.

If you are going to Nerf a class why Nerf the one that people pay for?

[Exar_Jun]

DEVs please consider more the common player that is not in a uber guild and is not able to level in 3 days and TR in a few days more. It is hard enough for those of us that take a few months to get to 20 to only find out that now their cool things are changed(becuase pro player figure some loophole to have something work NAI) and now no one will take them in pugs for the roles that you built your character. So we start over with yet another character and never get a chance to get strong enough to realistically find all the overpowering epic items and greensteel stuffs. After a year+ I have enough mats to make my first GS item and I am hesitant in deciding which character to focus on...sense i cannot make a mistake and just trade some of my scrolls and scales for larges. I have yet to even pull a scroll during quest.

And I even feel like I play alot. I see prices for items in the auction house and it is a bit hopeless for a player like me that can barely muster 1 MM pp on all my characters.

[Rizzyn]

Okay, I believe the DEVS or someone conceded that the AI wasn't fully up to the task, but that completely reprogramming the AI was a far more daunting task than making tweaks elsewhere. That's not an agreement to the "Nerf" of Leap of Faith, for lack of a more constructive term, but I hesitate to "poo-poo" someone elses coding, when I know exactly how difficult such tasks can be. The AI did its job, as more things were added/changed, the AI began to struggle to account for the changes, time marched on, etc.

BUT, if the Raid Boss AI cannot handle a DoTting and Kiting Favored Soul, then they can't handle any variation of the same; Rangers, Wizards, etc. If Kiting, on the whole, marginalizes Melee, then isn't KITING the problem? Not Leap of Faith? DOT damage aside, which is what can grab them aggro, the same can be said of any truly damaging spell. I've seen Firewalls turn encounters on their ear, as what was once tanked, suddenly decided the Wizard that firewalled him was the real problem.

Is the root problem then the Aggro Mechanic? The intimi-mechanic? Because on the surface, it seems that Kiting is the problem, the kiters that are "best" at it -- wings pretty much trumps running away -- are the ones getting the nerf. I don't know how it is on other servers, but I don't see a ton of Favored Souls on mine, and I would be hard pressed to gather a full Raid of FvS, and if I did, I would expect to show up for a raid, kick backside, take names, and chew bubblegum until the bubblegum ran out. However, while I've seen Melee FvS, I've not seen a whole lot of Tanking FvS -- save for one, one of the "Blank"Bears, I think, but he's a "Special" case.

[kailiea]

Sub canceled when the 9 sec cool down goes into effect. As I suspect many others will.

Is it just me or does this change seem like curing the headache by cutting off the head.

To change an already reduced function of a class based on 1-2% of the games population seems silly to me. Especially a function that was pegged as a selling point.

I suspect this comes just in time for everyone to reincarnate their FVS into artificers

[voodoogroves]

Seriously,

The DOTS that the devs put in and seem to refuse to put in saves for -either to negate or for half damage- are what's causing the OPness of casters vs Bosses.
The FVS wings have nothing to do with it.

I will point out that they've already said somewhere tehy can't really increase teh AI of bosses, because every bit they increase teh AI increases lag. And having the bosses teleport to the FVS is kinda a waste of an idea again, as the FVS can just drop another DOT and wing away. Boss has to TP again,rinse repeat.

Again- give the mobs a save against the dot -if they can't do the massive unsavable,unresisted, DOT damage, they're not going to be kiting in most parties.
Dots do less damage,FVS won't hold as much aggro, no need to nerf the wings that all the players enjoy.

You know I don't completely agree with you and others on how out of balance DOTs may be, but I will agree with you here.


I said it above, I'd rather lose Divine Punishment completely than wings. Seriously. Replace it with a single-target, one-strike big light from they sky ... no damage over time.

[mystafyi]

I will also cancel my sub if this goes into effect.

[Cyr]

I suspect this comes just in time for everyone to reincarnate their FVS into artificers

Actually the fort changes on higher difficulties seem more targetted at this as it provides decreased reason to play a rogue which is the closest party slot that an artificer is most likely to fill.