Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Venny]

With respect Eladrin...

this is lame. Lame and unnecessary. More proving ground to the skill of FAIL..

I fully agree.

I do not see how wings are game breaking... tr MM is game breaking, certain mixed character builds with TR MM is game breaking and I can name several people who have done just that to be game breaking.

I stand by my point this is Stupid.

What next Nerf Cleric's Aura so the cool down is longer... how bout waiting to be healed when there is no sp left... 9s... party death = ****ed off gamers. People stop playing and more importantly for you they stop paying to play. I know several that have already becase the are just too annoyed with the game that keeps Nerffing/Breaking things that were working well to begin with.

The Key notes for FVS and for Sorcs are supposed to be Shorter cool downs and at the moment they are pretty much the same as their counter parts, are you going to Nerf the Wizards as well that can do thousands of points of damage? I don't see anything in the works for Nerfing them but I will remind you people PAY to Play Favoured Souls.

How bout we fix all the spell lag issues and the bugs that I am constantly reporting as a VIP before we start nerfing characters that aren't broken?

[Caged]

Totally against that, that skill is what makes FvS fun for me. Just make binding chain bind those abilities or make the boss debuff any target it hits with a debuff that disables them or slows.

[MrFister]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

Sad Puppy Face.

I'd much rather see better boss mechanics.

You get aggro on the Lord of Blades? In melee range --> he beats on you. Not in melee range? He gets mad and casts Shocking Prison! His anger gives him a rage like effect and a speed boost. A metal cage surrounds the target, electrically charged. You're stuck and taking electrical damage over time until the cage is destroyed.

[dkyle]

And yet many of the Solo Raid feats highlighted by some forum members are not Favored Souls. A Full Party of Pale Masters would be similarly dangerous, as would a full party of Greataxers, for example. If I had a choice, I'd bing 10 Greataxers, and 2 healers, and watch things die in a hurry.

Yes, other classes have solo'd some Raids. But to my knowledge, nothing other than a FvS has solo'd ToD.

A party full of Pale Masters would be pretty powerful too. That shows that casters are also very overpowered.

As for a group of Greataxers? Unless you mean a party full of copies of a specific Greataxer, I have to question how well a party of average Barbarians would do. The big difference is that a FvS newly leveled to 20 can use DP and Kite almost effectively as one chock full of Epic and Raid gear. Self-sufficiency and anything approaching top DPS on a Barbarian is much more difficult to attain.

An average party of 10 Barbs and 2 Healers? I rather doubt that's more effective than an average party of 12 FvS.

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

This is a direct and drastic reduction to the fun of the ability. And probably won't even change much in terms of game balance.

Fact is, kiting has always been more effective in DDO than it should be. There are no Attacks of Opportunity, and mob AI is just bad at dealing with players running away. That's a problem that should be fixed. Not this one method that is slightly better at kiting than just running away.

The DoTs are another problem. Sustained single-target DPS that rivals or exceeds classes who are almost entirely dedicated to it is the problem.

[patang01]

Taking away the ability to to use leap of faith is not the answer here. Taking a system where 2 undefendable spells = uber damage and pairing it down to a system where 7 defendable spells managed correctly = uber DPS, but good luck doing all that while kiting with wings at the same time, creates a system where situationally it will be still as uber as it used to be, but there will be MANY situations where a mob is immune to one or two of the spells, and other situations where its not viable to kite and maintain the constant vigil on cooldowns and spell stacks.

No thank you; I don't want to play a super weak FvS that has to cycle almost a dozen spells to be good. I didn't work so hard to get the gear I have to be able to use the spells I do at the level they are. I use several different spells but in order to get close to what I do now and have to deal with neatly times spells like you're asking for is a nightmare and only fun for people who think playing games is a mathematical puzzle.

There are so many ways to deal with the issues - if someone binds a FvS remove it's leap ability. Solved. By changing the cooldown or even spell cost it simply makes the feature a waste. I've never done any kiting with my FvS (raid bosses) but to weaken the FvS simply to fix a issue with the boss AI seems counter productive.

It's better to solve it on the AI side rather than the FvS side just to make another class unappealing.

As for anyone that says caster DPS shouldn't be up to par with a fighter seem to forget that it's only as good as the SP lasts. After that a caster is a pretty worthless fighter. Sure; you can always chug pots but I'm not in the habit of wasting tons of SP simply to win something I can win anyways with no resources used.

[voodoogroves]

No.
Wings+blade barrier was broken from day one and dots didn't even exist. Let's face it: wings are fun but op.
Just disable Leap of faith when chained or harried and see how it goes before taking further steps

And see - you're talking about an entirely different situation than the one they have discussed - boss kiting.

(1) If lots of classes can clear trash fast through different means - fine. It's trash.
(2) If the real problem is boss kiting, then give some of the bosses a movement-dampening aura or field that cancels it.


This lets folks wing around the market, destroy trash, whatever ... and resolves the "problem"

[twix]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

are you looking into the dots in this game as well? notice how the majority of fvs who are soloing raids and such really started shooting up when dp was released... just saying..not to say fvs werent good before the dots..but then it actually took some sort of skill with dcs and such ..doing 1500-1800 of purple damage with an unsavable spell should be looked at.

The air savant seemed really long on the cool down and boring ..now both fvs and savants will have their ability pushed to nine seconds? wow ...thats stupid sorry...if anything put the wings ability to the same cooldown that the savants is on currently. dont make it more...rofl do the people that come up with these solutions even play this game?

[shadowsaun]

Sad Puppy Face.

I'd much rather see better boss mechanics.

You get aggro on the Lord of Blades? In melee range --> he beats on you. Not in melee range? He gets mad and casts Shocking Prison! His anger gives him a rage like effect and a speed boost. A metal cage surrounds the target, electrically charged. You're stuck and taking electrical damage over time until the cage is destroyed.

Dear Sir and community,

Please stop giving creative ideas out for free, especially reasonable fun sounding ones! DO YOU NOT understand the power of just nerfing the "whatever"??? Its been proven, game after game, MMO after MMO, developer after developer..Nerf is the way! LESS TIME, LESS MONEY
LESS EFFORT, LESS WORK

People forget, new players come. Dont you get it, there after NEW money. NEW MONEY who doest care about a games history, and will never notice such things.

The timing on this is perfect, they lost some money due to the nerfs...then get some with the new content. Breaking even, never breaking a sweat!

NERF for the win!

[Bodic]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

ahh nerf 2 of 3 is not fair timer extention and double ki on abundant is a must besides you like nerfing Monks so what gives with the special treatment. 10ki is nothing my monk can maintain enough ki to spam TOD and AS 300 ish Ki constantly being recharged.

[moorewr]

We're looking at a real disconnect between what devs and players want here.

Increasing the cooldown seems fine, but we're already headed towards Anti-Fun moves here. If you look at something as basic to a class, as it is rendered in DDO, and say "well! this change I'm making will make it a alot less fun!" then you know it is a design mistake.

[dkyle]

As for anyone that says caster DPS shouldn't be up to par with a fighter seem to forget that it's only as good as the SP lasts. After that a caster is a pretty worthless fighter. Sure; you can always chug pots but I'm not in the habit of wasting tons of SP simply to win something I can win anyways with no resources used.

The SP cost of DoTs are not a significant limiting factor in the currently available content.

"Overpowered till you run out, then worthless when you do" is also a terrible way to design a game. It ensures that a character, at any moment, is either overpowered, or useless, but never balanced. Selling ways to make that overpoweredness last longer is an even more terrible way to design a game.

[patang01]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Eladrin,

Please can we not?

If you have an issue with people kiting bosses then fix the AI. The cost itself is not the issue, but cooldown for the sake of a few that uses FvS to kite makes for a bad feature. Just turn off the ability to leap if someone is stickied and slowed - solved. To simply 'nerf' on the side of the FVS because of poor game design that allows for someone to take advantage of bad AI makes for a lackluster game.

[BlargneyTheSecond]

Please don't nerf leap of faith. It's the main reason I took the FvS class.

[gloopygloop]

Edit: redundant post

[Rizzyn]

Are Wings as a device for kiting the problem? Is kiting itself a problem? Are DoT spells really the issue? I'm becoming unclear as we go.

If you have a party full of Favored Souls, unless someone purpose built to be "tanky", yeah, there's gonna be kiting. Same if there was a heavy percentage of Rangers or Arcanes in the party. It's partly about party composition, isn't it? I've run HoX, and yes, I've used Pots, but only because I was healing the Tank and the Dogs and whoever else I could see and reach that needed it. I turtled up and healed, and occasionally DP'd a Render or two that was in my way, or tripping up the Tank, that's it. On Lam one can down Pot after Pot, on LIVE, I save my potions for raids, and save them to Heal people, not to DP, not to attack or Kite, but to Heal.

I will not blow resources on Live unless I'm using them to save a quest -- meaning we've reached a tough patch and I'm low on SP, or to keep my fellow Raiders alive and killing Bosses. Maybe that's just me, or us, as my partner does largely the same.

[Aredharr]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

As everyone in the post mentioned, the wings are what make the FvS fun to play - and relies on the 3sec cooldown.

If this has to really go through an "excessive" increase in cooldown, at least make it only for raids and maybe quests.

So the exploits of kiting-boss-intoBB will stop. To my knowledge, the only FvS i have seen play this tactic are hardcore veterants fully geared after multiple TRs and hardly represent the actual crowd of Healer/caster/melee FvS.


Leave the short 3sec cooldown to the explorer and city areas. Where you can at least move fast and get somewhere.

[Dawnsfire]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

Personally I can live with this providing the buff is really cool. What buff? But Torc said so VV. . .

[Nick_RC]

are you looking into the dots in this game as well? notice how the majority of fvs who are soloing raids and such really started shooting up when dp was released... just saying..not to say fvs werent good before the dots..but then it actually took some sort of skill with dcs and such ..doing 1500-1800 of purple damage with an unsavable spell should be looked at.

The air savant seemed really long on the cool down and boring ..now both fvs and savants will have their ability pushed to nine seconds? wow ...thats stupid sorry...if anything put the wings ability to the same cooldown that the savants is on dont make it more...rofl do the people that come up with these solutions even play this game?

/completely signed.

Give the dots a save. U should build for dc's not just have an irresistable dmg spell pwn everything. I love my fvs and of coarse I use the dots now....but they need a save for sure.

6 seconds on an air savant is slow already....9 seconds is a very long time.

[voodoogroves]

Personally I can live with this providing the buff is really cool. What buff? But Torc said so VV. . .

And maybe come with a free true heart so those who lost the joy of wings but still have the burden to help heal can switch to a less fun class but one where they don't have to keep everyone else alive.

[dkyle]

The bottom line on this is: sapping the fun out of something during the 95% of the time when it's not in any way overpowered, for the sake of trying to mitigate it the maybe 5% of the time where it would be, is just a bad idea. The wrong way to go.

Do something specific with bosses to mitigate wings around them (I'd prefer implementing general anti-kiting measures, however), but not the rest of the time.

The DoTs, on the other hand, are always overpowered once they've been triple stacked. That's just too much sustainable DPS.