Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Attropos]

From the LOB discussion thread:

Thanks for the feedback guys. They'll be some tweaks coming in soon, and many bug fixes. There are still bits of complexity to the Lord of Blades that we hope to be to realized Artificer raid as well.

I'll toss out a few general hints that hopefully won't spoil to much. I'll try to be vague.

1. Epic just isn't epic without an anti rezz mechanic. We won't be turning off raise dead entirely but it will get more difficult to raise your dead on the harder difficulties.

2. We hope to enhance the player side of "Power of the Forge" more if you care to try it out again next patch.

3. I think you'll see the LOB pet hounds stick around more, their self heal mechanic was bugged

4. Alot of talk about Wing Clip & Favored Souls...You and us both. We're looking into that and yet.. we are concerned, like globally on a system wide scale concerned about leap kiting abilities being too uber, making the run and gun trivial and cutting melee players out of boss fights while their at it.

*putting on my official party popping hat*

Leap of faith, among other abilities, is now under review.

While this ability has been in its current form for some time, our new ventures into the raid space have reminded the systems team just how “uber” these feats are at kiting our bosses. We’ve become very concerned recently in the new post spell pass environment that this form of “boss kiting” over “boss tanking” will side line melee.

Leap of Faith’s original design did not account for continuously or methodically use to be so game deforming and we’re regretting its current parameters so expect them to change…. Very soon.

Please feel free to comment here. We welcome your alpha strike of feedback Our current thinking is to keep this fairly minimal, cool down and or cost adjustments really.

-Torc

P.S. I’m only nerfing you now so I can buff you later.

From this Thread:

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

I figured I should make a new topic because the other one was derailed.

My thoughts:
Wings aren't the problem, the DOTs are. The problem isn't that the wings are inherently OP, but the ability to keep aggro while winging is. Blade barriers won't keep aggro.

Wings are, in my opinion, the most fun ability in the game because of their spamability. Ever try the sorc air dance? Not nearly as fun because of their long cooldown. Cut down on the wings spamability and Turbine will probably lose people buying the FVS class.

Remember that the wings do cost sp, and that most new players can't afford to be winging all the time.

Not being able to wing while chained would seem fair and not really gimp the main draw of the class. Increasing the SP cost would just hurt new players, and increasing the cooldown would cause the ability to be less fun.

[dkyle]

Wings aren't the problem, the DOTs are. The problem isn't that the wings are inherently OP, but the ability to keep aggro while winging is. Blade barriers won't keep aggro.

Yes, this.

Really, the DoTs are blatantly overpowered, even without the wings. A FvS or Cleric should not be able to rival the single-target sustained DPS of a Barb or Fighter. Otherwise, the only purpose of those classes would be, possibly, to tank, if another FvS can't just do it themselves. Same goes for casters and the Arcane DoTs. A Sorc tanking Sulu with just the DPS of DoTs alone is simply ridiculous. And the new Acid spell will just make that even easier.

[taurean430]

/subscribed.

Don't have time to add my thoughts on the matter. But will as soon as i can get back to this thread. I am curious though regarding commentary from other players.

[Lithic]

Remember that the wings do cost sp, and that most new players can't afford to be winging all the time.

The above is blatently false. You would need to hit your wings 40 times (PER SHRINE)to notice a significant loss of SP on an averagely geared lvl 20 FvS. Now if they cost 50 or 100 sp per cast, then sure their cost would make people think before using them.

As of right now, wings are a 28% stacking striding boost, and (combined with DoTs, shoulder cannon summons, and possibly the FvS capstone searing light) boss /win buttons.

Ideally monster AI would be able to deal with leaps of faith, but so far monsters are too slow to react, and lack the abilities necessary to do any significant damage to the FvS, who can self heal equal to or better than any other class.

[Memnir]

Dear Dev Team,


I'll preface this by saying: I don't have a FvS of any significant level. I have never used Leap of Faith, but I will admit to enjoying Abundant Step on my Monk quite a lot.



Changing Leap of Faith would be a mistake, Devs. A really significant one. If kiting is a problem, figure out a solution on the monster's end of things - not by altering player abilities that have been with the class since you introduced it.

Additionally, this possible change would cause player unrest that would rival the levels that would be unleashed if a khopesh change was announced. Instead of changing khopesh, the Dev team made the correct decision to give the other exotic weapons some incentives.

Now, I say this only because the weapon profile of the khopesh does not follow PnP versions of the weapon. However, the alterations were kept instead of nerfing the weapon in order not to provoke a player revolt. Other prospects to balance out the game were created - and I think they're good ones.


Please pursue other prospects to any perceived issues you, the Dev Team, feel is the problem with LoF kiting. Otherwise - might as well change the khopesh too and at the same time. Might as well make as deep a cut as you can to maximize the amount of player-rage that would be the result of changing either of these aspects of the game that y'all put in, and have kept in for years.


This is from the viewpoint of a player who has never used Leap of Faith, and probably won't ever.


Thanks,
Mem.

[MartinusWyllt]

So...this boss kiting...is it something anyone playing a Monk or FvS can easily do or is it something that comes easy after many, many hours of playing? I've only had Leap of Faith on my FvS (and I did buy the class with TP so I could play with AoV) for a few months now, I think and I still flat-out smash my face into walls just as often as I elegantly turn a corner and vault up stairs/over obstructions...sure I can land on top of the 5th portal in Shroud part 1 (pattern as run on Thelanis) consistently now, but I've yet to see game-breaking kiting tactics, much less how to pull it off easily.

Anyway, I'm just asking you to consider if this is more of a concern for your die-hard professional player base or if the need for a nerf is because the average player can readily reproduce the professionals' performances....your pros will always find ways to break your game, you already know this, of course.

[PresentTense]

Give the bosses DoTs. Heck, Horoth's already got some. If they can't strike their aggro target with melee attacks for X seconds, let them DoT up the favored soul. You don't even have to use DoTs - some disintegrates and polar rays will do the trick, too. Problem solved without removing a beloved class ability.

[Qzipoun]

I have never seen Wings cause any issues in a party run. This whole thing is a non-issue. Kiting a raid boss? Really? You think 11 people are going to sit and watch 1 person kite a raid boss? If they really want to sure, but how is that overpowered?

I fail to see how wings should be anywhere CLOSE to 'under review' when there are so many other abilities that are completely useless or OP...

[Chai]

1. Give players new movement and or attack abilities.

2. Players with good twitch combat skills start ruling the game.

3. Nerf ability instead of mitigating the system.

4. Fail.

Q: Now chai, what do you mean about mitigating the system?

A: Instead of having two spells that are insanely powerful, have 6 or 7 spells which are far less powerful each but add up to being as powerful as the two spells add up to being right now.

Example: Right now, in single mob fights while kiting a FvS can cast a blade barrier + divine punishment, then kite until divine punishment cycles, then cast it again, etc - when blade barrier runs out cast that again too if needed.

Solution through mitigation of the system: Have 6 or 7 spells that each target different weaknesses on mobs which add up to the same relative DPS that can be done with blade barrier + divine punishment.

Result: Sure, there will still be a VERY FEW people who have mastered actions per minute gaming techniques who will still be uber beyond comparison, but the rest of us will have to keep tabs on cooldowns, mob strengths and weaknesses per spell, timed delivery, AND damage mitigation through kiting / healing. Right now as it stands just about anyone can cast one spell every few seconds while kiting, and renew the other spell every 30 seconds.

Taking away the ability to to use leap of faith is not the answer here. Taking a system where 2 undefendable spells = uber damage and pairing it down to a system where 7 defendable spells managed correctly = uber DPS, but good luck doing all that while kiting with wings at the same time, creates a system where situationally it will be still as uber as it used to be, but there will be MANY situations where a mob is immune to one or two of the spells, and other situations where its not viable to kite and maintain the constant vigil on cooldowns and spell stacks.

This should have been learned in the firewall days of old, where casters just specced into fire and ran fast while turning left around their single cast firewalls. Nowdays players just run fast and keep distance between them and the mob while the DOTs remain on the mob itself, and kite round blade barriers. And to "balance" this they take away the ability to kite. I think we just learned what the new generation of hate tanks is going to look like. /sigh 2 steps forward, 3 steps backward.

[Asketes]

I made a FVS b/c the wing ability is fun and I use it often... b/c it's fun.

Taking the wings away or changing them to a severe penalty to use will make my fvs not fun to play anymore.

I'm not going to get into the discussion more than this.

[shadowsaun]

Edition to post..

at least the Devs are really listening on this one..

[dkyle]

Give the bosses DoTs. Heck, Horoth's already got some. If they can't strike their aggro target with melee attacks for X seconds, let them DoT up the favored soul. You don't even have to use DoTs - some disintegrates and polar rays will do the trick, too. Problem solved without removing a beloved class ability.

Good idea. A pretty simple AI change of "target not in melee range for a continuous 6 seconds -> start casting ranged nukes like crazy". A continuous cycle of Disintegrate/Polar Ray/Meteor Swarm/Cometfall would quickly negate the benefits of kiting. That shouldn't be anything complicated. Velah even already does something like that. She starts comet-falling if noone engages her for long enough.

why nerf NERF NERF....gezze just give the bosses teleport ability...problem solved.

Teleport isn't enough. The AI in this game just sucks at keeping up with moving players, and damaging them, even with teleport. It's always teleport where the player is currently, then swing at thin air as the player has already moved away. For example, zerging Sins on my FvS, the only thing that touches me while I run down the halls getting Red Alert is the Orthons' bolts. The melee attacks almost never hit unless I happen to be running right by an enemy when it decides to swing. I only start getting hit in melee when I start doing the blade barrier kite, but that's only because the narrow hall forces me to run through the enemies, instead of circling.

[Rizzyn]

Our mains, Venny and I, are Level 20 Capped Favored Souls. We chose the Sovereign Host Cap and Clickie, as well as Angel of Vengeance. Our primary role, in any raid, has generally been one of support. I believe Shade/Greataxer ran a couple of Epic Runs with Vennysha, my Lady's Favored Soul, where she primarily was concerned about healing. I am built to have higher DCs in my attack spells, but only just. I'm reading a lot about the kiting ability of a FvS, as well as the DPS of spells like Divine Punishment. We consider ourselves fairly good players, not the best perhaps, but not terrible, and neither of us are thinking we can solo or even due LoB on Elite or Epic.

The Wings are very useful, for jumping the gap in Rainbow for example, certain explorers and even avoiding certain traps. They are also useful for running away. We have never been in a group where we have out-tanked or aggro'd those we had in place to do so. We've healed Shroud, HoX, VoD, and the new raids, and even with unlocked Light and Darkness neither of us think we have the stuff to tank out LoB or Suulo. Venny chose Full Plate prof, and can get her AC up fairly high, but not tank high, probably not even as high as a Barbarian with the right gear. I certainly can't get Chas over 50, with Epic Cav plate, and the unlocked shield, and a Buccaneer Ring, close, but not over.

Maybe we are too cooperative, or maybe we've not raided enough, but I fail to see the clear advantage that Leap of Faith has over a proper Tank, or how we can average the DPS of a proper raid group of mixed melees. My freshly minted 20th Level Barb, built for DPS with some of Greataxer's own guidance can hit harder and more reliably than even a stacked Divine Punishment. I used DP in the new raids, and with the aid of other Favored Souls and Divines, we were able to keep up the damage, but we were short melees and all of us regretted it, it was the best tool we had at our disposal. And keeping up the damage while healing and tracking other madness is a stretch, unless its a party of Favored Souls and Clerics. Even with my Archon going, my damage was not as sustainable as that of the Savants, and here again, we all regretted not having more melees.

Can someone explain how this one ability is Game Bending/Breaking? With some examples, and aren't there other classes where "Kiting" is their best stategy, an Arcane Archer capped with Manyshot and all the trimmings, wouldn't a build like the first Bowbarian AA that I knew of, Soulrapture, be just as game breaking? He can run backwards all day and hit for a hundred or more points of damage per shot, before critting, Green Steel, imbued arrows, etc.

Is Kiting not a legitimate strategy depending on the party makeup, or is it always a dodge?

[bobbryan2]

Giving bosses DoTs that they use only when they can't reach their target would be a good idea.

Small DoT at first.

Still kiting after 10 seconds? 2nd Dot.

Still kiting? 3rd DoT.

At least at that point it would have the same healing upkeep as a melee tank if they continue.

[Jahmin]

The problem is not wings; the problem is the lack of tanking

AC? Not so much
Intimidate? Nerfed to near uselessness
HP? Not any more…

So, having removed the few advantages a melee has in dealing with boss agro how in Eberron is it a surprise that people are moving to classes that are more survivable?

[Matuse]

*sigh*

Obviously this is going to be a ridiculous change. Like quadrupling the cooldown, and raising the SP cost to 75, and halving the leap distance.

If kiting a boss is really this much of a problem (which I doubt), then just put heavy gravity into boss battles that prevent wings for that one location. Wholesale nerfing of a class defining ability across the entire game because it is maybe slightly problematical in certain rare situations is...extremely dirty pool.

While you are at it, devs, how about putting the nerf on Binding Chains? There's no save, no spell resistance, no way to remove it.

P.S. I’m only nerfing you now so I can buff you later.

There's really nothing you can do that will make this sentence true. At least, not in such a way that this buff in any way compensates for the loss. It's not even a question of nerfing power, it's nerfing fun. Wings are FUN. A lot of fun. Even when I'm not inside a dungeon I have fun with them. $100 says I won't anymore after this change.

[Bodic]

wings are a non issue, seriously if it was catering to all dot's and flitting then why would we see nothing but the FvS/Sorc in this game.

Monk get their abundant step a slight more in cost not much.

50 to 100 sp you got to be joking as I know you would not want the same 10x or 20x on your monk and sorc that would be fair so 100 to 200 ki I dont know the sorc SP cost.

All the FvS wings are clipped already per PnP full flight is possible to a 20 favored Soul I believe.

again even if something is done it must effect sorc and monk equally.

[shadowsaun]

Good idea. A pretty simple AI change of "target not in melee range for a continuous 6 seconds -> start casting ranged nukes like crazy". A continuous cycle of Disintegrate/Polar Ray/Meteor Swarm/Cometfall would quickly negate the benefits of kiting. That shouldn't be anything complicated. Velah even already does something like that. She starts comet-falling if noone engages her for long enough.

Teleport isn't enough. The AI in this game just sucks at keeping up with moving players, and damaging them, even with teleport. It's always teleport where the player is currently, then swing at thin air as the player has already moved away. For example, zerging Sins on my FvS, the only thing that touches me while I run down the halls getting Red Alert is the Orthons' bolts. The melee attacks almost never hit unless I happen to be running right by an enemy when it decides to swing. I only start getting hit in melee when I start doing the blade barrier kite, but that's only because the narrow hall forces me to run through the enemies, instead of circling.

Yes your right, especially the sins example. But still...

Devs, please, stop nerfing your player bass because you fail in programming monster AI. Be more creative like all your loyal fans and take some of there FREE advise. Nerf is not the answer. Further more...with the new arty class getting BB, why the hell should I take FvS? Oh ya...the wings..

[Venny]

I usually write a well ballanced review but this is a Stupid Idea.

As a Favoured Soul, healer, With Echos of power I can Wing twice and some times you have to to out run and drink pots... if we are talking about 'Nerfing' granted class feats, then you would have to nerf the monks ability and the Air Savant's own as well. Fvs aren't equipped to tank unless you choose the right feats and even then the only thing that the Fvs have going for them quite frankly after the adjusments to Clerics with their Shiney new healing Aura and Mega hitting Healing bursts is their wings and the ability to kite danger away from those that need the time, to heal and recover. Mind you the Clerical Aura only costs a recharging Turn ability while Wings actualy cost sp that doesn't recharge over time.

If you want to Nerf something, look towards the Tr feat Magic Missle that goes through everything reguardless and can be had on everyone and be fired off for free no matter sp or not.

If the Devs wish to continue with this line of thinking then Many people that do play this game and enjoy the ability to have 12 sp and be able to fly away from danger or leap away from hazards like Squishie Sorcs, may take their money and go else where... People either bought the class or unlocked the class, made one and leveled them up to 17 to be able to have the wings and fly others are VIP and so pay a monthly fee like myself.

But the Kite has been cut down as they have already made the Extend Feat nonexistant except for on buffs, which at this point is moot as you find a shrine after they have run out or if a fight last longer than 20 minutes in a normal quest something has gone wrong and even those buffs that one uses most often have to be reapplied in any case after you have taken 120 points of elemental damage or 23 points of damage regardless of type. So I fail to follow where the Kiting issue comes in... also on a Blade Barrier you HAVE to kite it does not do Damage per Tick like a Wall of Fire or a Lightening Storm. So unless you mean to change the Blade Barrier to a Damage Per Tick this Kiting discussion is also Moot like many feats these days.

Tinkerbell - The Archon on one's shoulder hits up to 250pts of light damage... If Crit
Divine Punishment - 750 when stacked three times and only on a vorpal srike.
Blade Barrier - When Ear dwellered 750-850 Crit.

And no matter what I did at a point I could not pull the agro off of a really good tank... so maybe people should learn how to build a tank and stop whining about how they are nerffed.

By the Way there is a Quest where Wings are Clipped and that is Dreaming Dark, there was high gravity and there was no jumping there was no flying and even if you hit your wings at a certain point there was no feather fall and you took regardless of feather fall boots or wings... 80 pts of damage. If one must, apply the same to some quests if they feel the need.

In the end, clipping wings because of kiting is a foolish Idea and will loose you money.

[dkyle]

I have never seen Wings cause any issues in a party run. This whole thing is a non-issue. Kiting a raid boss? Really? You think 11 people are going to sit and watch 1 person kite a raid boss? If they really want to sure, but how is that overpowered?

The problem is that the game design, currently, encourages everyone to play FvS, maybe casters, and nothing else.

Right now, the only reason not to do all FvS runs all the time is inertia. The game used to reward variety; melee DPS used to be important for killing Raid bosses. So there's still a bunch of melee characters running around. So it's faster to just take them, instead of holding out for the ideal all-FvS group.

But over time, people tend towards the optimal. Just look at Melee Rangers; at one time, they were the best DPS melee, and were quite popular. Then they got nerfed. Now, they're rare.

If the Devs want to maintain an interesting, well-balanced game, they need to ensure one single class isn't the answer to all the challenges they throw at us. Bosses are supposed to be big challenges, with careful coordination of tank (sometimes), DPS, healing, and sometimes CC. But a party full of FvS trivializes them. One FvS kites, while the rest pile on DPs. Easy.