Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Venny]

I solo/kited throughout Sins using 30% striders the +15 jump in my hat and Blade Barriers without ever once hitting my wings, Shrined once at the second shrine, killed everything before end fight Summoned TP Shrine Shrined up to full 402 hps and 2630sp Buffed down to 2350sp. I was insta Chained upon entry and tanked Cenodoxus. Healled once to full and Dped him, layering it. Was beat down to 250 and 1700 sp by end of fight.

And that was my test on Lamma land. To prove that I can kite without the use of my precious wings or haste

[Angelus_dead]

because in D&D they can fly not just zip around quazi-fly-jumping... fly.

As has already been explained, and should've been obvious anyway, a Fly ability in D&D 3.5 is no big dead because Wizards were Flying since level 5 anyhow.

but fly is what people want. not 5 jumps then wait.

But do you have a better reason to have it than "I want it"?

Because honestly, as a rule of thumb... if there is this kind of complaining after a such a limited nerf... it's a strong indication that the old version was overpowered compared to other character classes.

[protokon]

As has already been explained, and should've been obvious anyway, a Fly ability in D&D 3.5 is no big dead because Wizards were Flying since level 5 anyhow.


But do you have a better reason to have it than "I want it"?

Because honestly, as a rule of thumb... if there is this kind of complaining after a such a limited nerf... it's a strong indication that the old version was overpowered compared to other character classes.

What was overpowering about it? favored souls could move slightly faster with a nice graphical animation that was way fun to use. Just because a handful of stud players with infinite pots broke the raid on llama doesn't rationalize calling them overpowered. I guarantee whatever feats people were pulling off before this nerf will continue to pull off very similar feats - but sadly I wont be playing favored souls anymore, back to strictly clerics for me.

[kitsune_ko]

What matters is:
Can anyone give a defense as to why Favored Souls should get Leap of Faith with unlimited 3s cooldown at practially no cost?

Mmm, because it is a poor gimped version of what is supposed to be a class ability of flying?

I would think more people would be concerned that it seems to be open season at Turbine on core abilities; because if they get away with drastically modifying one; they can change any of them as they feel like it.

And I am looking at you Warforged right now, with your immunity to poison, Flesh to Stone, most mind spells, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, negative levels, natural underwater breathing, natural fortification, AND access to a second line of healing that is exclusive to the race.

Thats a hell of a lot of advantages there that no-one else has. And dont even get started on the WF PM combo.

Congrats, because your next in line boys.....

*EDITE*

And as to the new pack; I can guarantee if they GAVE it to me, I would not run it.

The pack that just killed my FvS enjoyment factor, and turned me into a bad cleric with a sporadic turbo boost button..

Yea, I really will want some of that pack goodness.

[Shadowaras]

I guarantee whatever feats people were pulling off before this nerf will continue to pull off very similar feats - but sadly I wont be playing favored souls anymore, back to strictly clerics for me.

Yep agreed 1 thing was the bonus to play a fvs over a cleric.. the wings .Other than that the clr can heal easier can distribute his stat points easier than an fs... can sustain his sp easier than an fs and has more and easier access to spells .. So what would be the benefit to play an fs if u go decide to go ahead with the wing cliping then u might as well remove the class altogether cause like my friend above said the moment that haps my fs gors tr to clr asap as well ..

[kitsune_ko]

darn... double post.. Edit and quote really need to be further part.

Preferably without any nerfing to my home PC Turbine... Just saying

[Rumbaar]

Congrats you've saved DDO from the godmode FvS ruining all raids and making them too easy. Thank you for solving that glaring problem caused by all the FvS's on the servers making your raids/epics too easy.

Thank you Turbine, once again you've 1d6 -> 1-6 Offer Walled my DDO experience. Maban be with!!

[gloopygloop]

But do you have a better reason to have it than "I want it"?

Because honestly, as a rule of thumb... if there is this kind of complaining after a such a limited nerf... it's a strong indication that the old version was overpowered compared to other character classes.

Fun =/= overpowered.

The fact that wings are amazingly FUN just means that they're fun. I had much more fun with my Bardbarian from level 1-6 than I had on my Fighter just because of Expeditious Retreat and the Barbarian run speed boosts. My Fighter was signficantly more powerful, but my Bardbarian was more fun - just because I'm used to the fast running that I get on my higher level characters.

My Fighter could kill more enemies faster than my Bard. My Fighter took less damage in fights. My Fighter could take on more significant challenges than my Bard could. But my Fighter felt like he was running through molasses. That was not fun.

Fun =/= overpowered.

[Grace_ana]

I don't have a FvS, granted, but I'm not understanding why the devs are so upset about this. I run raids pretty consistently on Khyber, and I never see FvS totally owning the raid by using wings. In fact, generally FvS are taken so they can heal, and I suspect that's slightly frustrating for the FvS. We have a lot of quests/raids where requests are always made for a certain class/race/build - "WF tank needed," "waiting for evasion toon," etc. I guess I just see this raid as one where in this case, the lfms will say "FvS kiter needed." Personally, I think it's kinda great to have a raid where the FvS gets a shot at being the one in demand, and not for the hjeals. I haven't seen the devs nerfing WF tanks because of ToD. It's the same thing.

Given the amount of consumables that seem to be needed for this method to work, I'm just not seeing the necessity for a wing nerf. I'd just go with the suggestion that's been made repeatedly to make chains work on wings and leave it at that. Then perhaps reevaluate, and if it's still making the devs lose sleep, next update they can add another minor tweak like a cooldown only. I think baby steps on this until the right balance is found (though I disagree it's really unbalanced) is the best way to not completely anger a huge number of players.

[Invalid_50]

Because honestly, as a rule of thumb... if there is this kind of complaining after a such a limited nerf... it's a strong indication that the old version was overpowered compared to other character classes.

1) its a limiting nerf, not a limited nerf.
2) it is a core ability on a premium class.
3) your "rule of thumb" lacks foundation.
4) people are upset because their characters were nerfed, and they paid money specifically to get that class as it was advertised, not because the ability was "overpowered" and they knew it and counted on it.
5) The burden is on the nerfers to prove that the ability was overpowered.
6) the term "overpowered" is subjective, and amorphous. (though they could have given specific examples, though the community would have given them specific solutions that did not include nerfing)
7) Most importantly, other things could have been done other than nerfing which makes the game more unfun for those people who bought fvs.

[Soleran]

As has already been explained, and should've been obvious anyway, a Fly ability in D&D 3.5 is no big dead because Wizards were Flying since level 5 anyhow.


But do you have a better reason to have it than "I want it"?

Because honestly, as a rule of thumb... if there is this kind of complaining after a such a limited nerf... it's a strong indication that the old version was overpowered compared to other character classes.

I'm sorry, you're terrible attempt at turning the nerf around to responses which were already given for scads and scads of posts doesn't do anything.

The question was why was there a nerf? The answer was that 1% of new content dictated the nerf for 99% of the rest of the content. It's a fact FVS were considered fine for how many years with what is currently available.

You should answer the question why is it justified after years and years of it being just fine the way it is to nerf it now without changing some mechanic to a boss fight with certain expectations of a class that is purchased.

[kitsune_ko]

I would like to ask this question.

How many raids/parties have you ever seen listed in the LFM for FvS only, and the text stating "Need expert FvS kiter".

Because I have to tell you, as a FvS player I have never seen this, never.

"Looking for experienced/expert kiters" yes, but almost anyone can kite.

I am also still interested in hearing a real explaination as to why FvS need a total game coverage nerf to Leap of faith; not just in quests/raids as players proposed as a very generous acceptable compromise (seeing that the reason for a nerf was never properly explained), but needed to be applied everywere in-game.

The Devs already said it can be done to limit them in just the quests/raids, and would be quite easy to do. So why the complete full-game nerfage if "kiting" and "raid deforming" are the issues? What exactly am I supposed to be kiting in the marketplace? What raid am I "deforming" running from my airship to the mailbox?

And how can they possibly get away with changing a classes core skill without needing to explain either why this is necessary, or even what they are trying to achieve with their full game Leap of Faith nerfage?

Because without an explaination, its looking a lot more like punishment to me, not any sort of legtimate nerf.

[Pewf]

I would like to ask this question.

How many raids/parties have you ever seen listed in the LFM for FvS only, and the text stating "Need expert FvS kiter".

I get tells all the time to kite the boss in New Invasion. :P Though that's the only thing I can think of...

And how can they possibly get away with changing a classes core skill without needing to explain either why this is necessary, or even what they are trying to achieve with their full game Leap of Faith nerfage?

Because without an explaination, its looking a lot more like punishment to me, not any sort of legtimate nerf.

+1, I agree. I'd at least want an explanation/confirmation that it was indeed a FvS' Kiting Ability that caused the nerf.

[Stormbringr]

Devs,

Please don't break something that isn't broken (Leap of Faith) in order to fix something that is broken (Lord of Blades quest mechanic).

More creative solution that doesn't involving angering many:

Lord of Blades Wing Shears

Any time Leap of Faith is used within 45 meters of the Lord of Blades, the Lord of Blades pulls forth his Mighty Returning Wing Shears and hurls them at the wings of the offending target, dealing 1d6 + 250 physical damage, no save. Player receives an "amputated wings" effect, causing movement speed -50%, loss of the use of the ability "Leap of Faith" for 30 seconds, and Bleeding, receiving 2d20 bleeding damage and d2 constitution damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Lord of Blades Mighty Returning Wing Shears pull the offending character to be adjacent to Lord of Blades. In addition, Player must make a dc50 reflex save or go into a "Shocked" state over his FVS becoming gimped, suffering 12d8 electric damage. If the Player fails the reflex save, they must make a dc50 fortitude save or be teleported to the Tree of Woe, to contemplate things, suffering 1 permanent-for-the-duration-of-the-quest negative level every minute for four minutes, leaving the player at level 16, no longer possessing the "Leap of Faith" ability.

Obviously, this got a little sarcastic at the end, but this could easily be done to some extent that would effectively make Leap of Faith not useful in this situation while not ruining the enjoyment of wings as they are currently in the rest of the 99% of content. Rather than nerfing something that is already in the game and not broken, please just fix the broken raid before you release it to live. The above Lord of Blades Wing Shears scenario would be a much more interesting addition to the game than nerfing wings would be.

[protokon]

I would like to ask this question.

How many raids/parties have you ever seen listed in the LFM for FvS only, and the text stating "Need expert FvS kiter".

Because I have to tell you, as a FvS player I have never seen this, never.

"Looking for experienced/expert kiters" yes, but almost anyone can kite.

I am also still interested in hearing a real explaination as to why FvS need a total game coverage nerf to Leap of faith; not just in quests/raids as players proposed as a very generous acceptable compromise (seeing that the reason for a nerf was never properly explained), but needed to be applied everywere in-game.

The Devs already said it can be done to limit them in just the quests/raids, and would be quite easy to do. So why the complete full-game nerfage if "kiting" and "raid deforming" are the issues? What exactly am I supposed to be kiting in the marketplace?

And how can they possibly get away with changing a classes core skill without needing to explain either why this is necessary, or even what they are trying to achieve with their full game Leap of Faith nerfage?

Because without an explaination, its looking a lot more like punishment to me, not any sort of legtimate nerf.

To be fair, when amrath was released, it was all the rage to bring a ranger to do the end fight kiting. Favored souls needed this nerf badly so Arcane archers could get their little niche back for this quest.

[Diyon]

I would like to ask this question.

How many raids/parties have you ever seen listed in the LFM for FvS only, and the text stating "Need expert FvS kiter".

Because I have to tell you, as a FvS player I have never seen this, never.

"Looking for experienced/expert kiters" yes, but almost anyone can kite.

I am also still interested in hearing a real explaination as to why FvS need a total game coverage nerf to Leap of faith; not just in quests/raids as players proposed as a very generous acceptable compromise (seeing that the reason for a nerf was never properly explained), but needed to be applied everywere in-game.

The Devs already said it can be done to limit them in just the quests/raids, and would be quite easy to do. So why the complete full-game nerfage if "kiting" and "raid deforming" are the issues? What exactly am I supposed to be kiting in the marketplace?

And how can they possibly get away with changing a classes core skill without needing to explain either why this is necessary, or even what they are trying to achieve with their full game Leap of Faith nerfage?

Because without an explaination, its looking a lot more like punishment to me, not any sort of legtimate nerf.

Core skill? That might be a bit much for a feature that's nonexistent for the first 16 levels. A semi-unique really cool feature? Yes. On the other hand, I don't think this is really as huge of deal with this change as people are making it out to be (Quitting DDO over it? Seems a bit much).

That being said, it getting nerfed sucks, and it should be given a proper explanation as to why.

[SableShadow]

What matters is:
Can anyone give a defense as to why Favored Souls should get Leap of Faith with unlimited 3s cooldown at practially no cost?

You mean one that isn't a general rant, a "they came for the FvS..." cautionary tale, or a "but I paid moneyz!" whine?

Sure, I'll pick up that guantlet, as a fellow class fanatic if not an FvS player.


This is really no different from any other player mobility issue, be it tumble (curse you, Docent of Defiance wearers! ahem...), haste, jump, or even Warp Time. All of those are effectively infinite, nominal cost (other than tumble...), and of great utility (if you know what you're doing...)

Where mobility is an issue, simply take it away in an in-game thematic manner without destroying the general utility of the ability. Crippling mobs got a buff that shuts down tumble. One can no longer tumble out of chains or through fogs. DA hits hasted and jumped characters. Etc.

FvS can fly. So can monks. Hasted/Jumped characters can, essentially, do the same thing...heck, I solo'd the end boss in the original version of Invasion with a quiver of silver arrows, a holy GB bow, pure stubborness, haste pots, and a generous helping of motion sickness tabs.

It's mobility. Simply treat it as every other mobility issue that's come up in the past and you'll preserve the original flavor, intent, and utility of the class without breaking the new and existing quests (including raids).

[goodoldxelos]

Wings are fine, nerf dots if anything. So from what I hear there is interest in nerfing wings, which was caused by a group of fvs with tons of free potions winging around killing the boss. That's not a controlled test of what typically happens, nobody uses that many potions in a quest/raid. Get real...

[pseudomasochist]

Core skill? That might be a bit much for a feature that's nonexistent for the first 16 levels. A semi-unique really cool feature? Yes. On the other hand, I don't think this is really as huge of deal with this change as people are making it out to be (Quitting DDO over it? Seems a bit much).

I can speak for myself only here but it's more a cumulative effect of adjustments(nerfs) than any single one. Changes to TWF, vorpal, intimidation, Touch of Death, and others have all made some classes and builds a bit less fun to play. Were they necessary for the game's integrity? There have been many discussions on each nerf that don't need to be rehashed but the fact remains that certain toons were rendered less enjoyable and it shouldn't be surprising that people grow weary of having to park or redo their characters because the goal posts were moved yet again.

In the case of Update 11, the raid boss changes are more concerning to me from rogue(will he still be useful?) and healer(will mnemonic usage be more common with longer beat-downs?) perspectives but this Leap of Faith nerf is another straw on the camel's back, so to speak.

Despite the strong reactions often displayed on this forum, the vast majority of people won't bother rage quitting with a full announcement and whatnot. They simply move on to another source of entertainment when this one ceases to be fun.

[Flugzeug]

maybe we should take out all sprint/speed boosts from all classes altogether. Just remove Wind Dance, Abundant Step, the permanent speed boost that monks get, the sprint boosts that barbarians/rangers get, etc.

Might as well just make everyone run around slow, and since it takes longer to get to each quest, players will spend more time on the way to quests and do less quests per hour and this will mean people are subscribed longer.

Or maybe people will just leave the game after their favored souls are no longer able to be somewhat fast getting around, like monks and other classes can do.

Seriously, it's a convenience that I like, and taking it away will put a huge amount of frustration in my DDO experience. I guess I'll just TR all of my favored souls to other classes that move around quicker. It's already bad enough that after I play my barb or monk, I hop on my wizard and cast haste about 4 times in 20 seconds because even with haste, my wizard moves so slow I think I don't have haste.