Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[BLAKROC]

I am against this change. devs need to do a better job on design of the quests instead of bringing out the nerf bat.

After all wings is one of the things that sold peeps on the fvs class. changing that after all the purchases is a terrible business decision and really unfair to turbines DDO customers.

wings are one of the funnest elements of the class.... w/o then mite as well just roll a cleric.

[Vordax]

that would make my day and then some. "turbine faces class action suit by player base over on line changes to purchased product"

oh please, now that you said it let it happen!

I see this in court:

Judge: so what did Turbine do
Lawyer: (points to monitor) You see this guy on the screen, when you click this button he moves forward real fast.
Judge: ok so whats the problem?
lawyer: Well Turbine changed it, so you can't click the button as often.
Judge:

Vordax

[kitsune_ko]

Dont laugh too much, class suits against MMORPGS do happen, Googles full of them.

And WB/Turbine is located in the good old US of A, the most litigious nation on earth, according to the news anyways

People get a little upset sometimes when they pay for a specific something and end up getting something a little less then what they were supposed to have recieved; we are funny that way occasionally I guess?

[Vordax]

Dont laugh too much, class suits against MMORPGS do happen, Googles full of them.

And WB/Turbine is located in the good old US of A, the most litigious nation on earth, according to the news anyways

People get a little upset sometimes when they pay for a specific something and end up getting something a little less then what they were supposed to have recieved; we are funny that way occasionally I guess?

The thing is, is that 98% of what this class can do, it still can and the 2% that changed was cut down to 9 times a minute instead of 20. Class action would take a whole lot more nerfing to be even considered close to having a case.

vordax

[gloopygloop]

you forgot..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ moronic monster AI

I think we all know that they're not going to fix that. I'd be pleasantly shocked if they were even working on it.

[szass]

Not sure if this has been brought up but why not just have certain mobs(mainly bosses)use a summon effect on characters that have agro and have some kind of a rooting effect if you dont want those mobs to be kited?

Especially since there is already binding chains in the game i dont even see why this is an issue with fvs wings and kiting raid bosses(by the way i dont even play an fvs and think this is pretty crappy)

[voodoogroves]

See szaas - that would be fine.

Perspective, for folks who have missed these collected points in the mass of pages above.

(1) People were huge FVS fans long before AoV (including the boost to untyped/fire/light damage, the archon, the aura of condemnation) or Divine Punishment were in the game. They didn't need all that and were still FVS players because they were movement junkies and IN LOVE WITH THE WINGS. Look at all the pre-AOV cleric-v-FVS threads ... equal parts of belief that one was better than the other but anyone who played a FVS came back to "but ... WINGS!"

This wasn't a problem UNTIL AoV and DP ... and possibly other DOTs and some of the new boss mechanics.

(2) When tumbling was proving to be too useful in some situations, the fix wasn't to remove backflips from the game or give them some wonky cooldown so you couldn't have fun in the market ... it was to limit the capability in the situations desired ... harried, chained, whatever. Eladrin posted that they had considered doing this but thought people would object - and honestly, there's no scientific analysis you can do from an opinion thread but it seems like a sizeable number of the FVS players would prefer that ... chain us, teleport us, cancel our DP, whatever when we wing.


And finally, another suggestion ...


Plenty of us played FVS before AOV and DP. If you can't figure out a way to make it work for all FVS players and you're dead set on keeping AOV and DP largely the same due to bigger DPS balance you're trying to achieve, how about an option for the people who'd rather have wings that AOV?

(a) remove wings from the FVS base class PERIOD - put something else in it's place like a another elemental resist, a bonus to spell penetration, a bonus eating tacos, whatever ... but remove the base class ability

(b) get quick about a new PRE for FVS and add wings to that ... basic unfettered use (maybe just a timer/cooldown, maybe costing SP, etc.) but make sure the AOV folks can't exploit it combined with super ranged, unattended spell DPS via dots. If the more melee FVS had Leap of Faith but lots of abilities that made the player want to be beating face, does that solve your problem?

[pseudomasochist]

I am against this change. devs need to do a better job on design of the quests instead of bringing out the nerf bat.

The forum posts may be overreacting considering we don't know how extreme or mild the changes to LoF and Bountiful Step will be but I agree with this statement. It's both amusing and disappointing how Turbine designed the class(FvS) and the raid(LoB) and when the two come together, their reaction can be summed up as "OMG, they're doing what?!?"

Players didn't find some obscure exploit in testing LoB, they only used a class-defining ability. If using one of the hallmark abilities of a popular class that was released years ago is as serious an issue as Turbine is making it out to be, why wasn't it noticed and addressed in an earlier stage of LoB's development? These incidents only serve to bring up the question of how much testing is really done before content gets released.

[ScrapsRPh]

How about if the Raid Boss is being kited by the FvS/Monk/whatever, for x amount of seconds then the Raid Boss loses all agro on them and turns on the next person with the next highest aggro?

[Sir_L0LL0]

These incidents only serve to bring up the question of how much testing is really done before content gets released.

Or WHO are those testers....

[Pewf]

I for one am trying to keep an open mind on the posible changes (The Devs seem convinced that they are indeed changing Leap..). My fellow FvS healers have spent the last hour /tell'ing each other our different opinions on the matter, Leap of Faith is almost the sole reason I chose FvS over Cleric.

If I can live off running around in +30% Striders, and still use the occasional Leap... I might remain FvS if not I'll be tring into a Wizard, and did I read correctly that Air Savants will be in the same boat regarding Wind Dance/Leap now...?

[Rizzyn]

The forum posts may be overreacting considering we don't know how extreme or mild the changes to LoF and Bountiful Step will be but I agree with this statement. It's both amusing and disappointing how Turbine designed the class(FvS) and the raid(LoB) and when the two come together, their reaction can be summed up as "OMG, they're doing what?!?"

Players didn't find some obscure exploit in testing LoB, they only used a class-defining ability. If using one of the hallmark abilities of a popular class that was released years ago is as serious an issue as Turbine is making it out to be, why wasn't it noticed and addressed in an earlier stage of LoB's development? These incidents only serve to bring up the question of how much testing is really done before content gets released.

Also note, that unless something recently changed in the Raid, Kiting isn't just one of a handful of viable tactics. According to other tests that included very high AC Tanks on NORMAL, it is really the ONLY viable tactic, as it is currently designed. Wings or not. Where LoB is concerned, nerfing Wings won't change that problem. Where the overall idea of Tanking a Boss versus Kiting a Boss, nerfing wings won't change the problem. Where the viability of Tanks is concerned, nerfing wings won't change the problem.

"Game Deforming" is very strong language, and no one has properly described, explained, or illustrated how Leap of Faith is Game Deforming. What has been illustrated is that it won't change anything other than Leap of Faith itself. It won't make WF Tank-Casters suddenly change their tactics, nor Pale Master Wraiths with Hastes any slower as they float in and out of their cloudkills and walls of fire or what have you. As I have said before, if Change is necessary, fine -- Change, but if it is a Change that doesn't resolve the problem mentioned in the same breath as the Change -- please explain it. Otherwise it continues to appear to be an adverse reaction to the tactics used by a few in a Raid that is still in Testing.

[Retsam]

You haven't bought the class now that they doubbled the price or unlocked it with 2500 favour have you?

The Wings are the reason people bought or took the bloody time to unlock the class. If you are Nerfing it I want my money back and all the time and effort I put into this game.

Edit: I had friends leave, stop being vip/stop playing because of the nerfs to Tanks and the Broken Intimi skill and the Damage over Time Agro pullers.... even in the low level quests my Pally with an intimi of 43 can't keep the agro for more than two seconds with a Back stabby rogue's damage. Far less for an arcane or Divine DoTs

I had more than 2500 favor when they were released. Try again.

I don't care if you have to buy them. They're insanely powerful even without wings, they just make it over the top.

[Rizzyn]

I don't care if you have to buy them. They're insanely powerful even without wings, they just make it over the top.

How? Compare and Contrast to a Pale Master or a solidly Built Radiant Cleric.

[Venny]

I had more than 2500 favor when they were released. Try again.

I don't care if you have to buy them. They're insanely powerful even without wings, they just make it over the top.

Wizards are insanely powerful try again

I will run a test between Myself and a capped Wizard Pale master.

[Retsam]

shield block, toss dots, heal as needed.. archon blasting away as well... getting SP forever with conc op/torc and tank anything in the game.

I've been around well long enough to see how well the class can be used, most people don't use it as such until they see someone else doing it. Once the builds go live on the forums it becomes an issue. That's why the Dev's never realize its an issue until there is hundreds of them running around dominating everything.

Oh and comparing things that are insanely powerful to insanely powerful is pointless, try comparing just an FVS to a cleric with no multi-classing. Yes both will do nearly the same tanking and healing themselves, but the FVS will pull way ahead when with the aura giving +200% light damage and the archon/dots.

[Aashrym]

Wizards are insanely powerful try again

Not against raid bosses they're not, at least not comparing to a fvs. High DC's aren't going to land an instant kill or hold. They certainly don't have the damage escape system available to using wings. I think you might need to try again. Just sayin'.

[Hakushi]

I only read a small portion of the thread, but from what I see, the problem is not with the wing ability that helps players get quicker to point A from point B or players to have fun with their character, but more the amazing kiting abilities provided by the ability combined with some specific spells.

A change could possibly be something like this:

Divine Punishment, Blade Barrier: Using this spell means you have to be concentrated on your target, you cannot use Leap of Faith for as long as the spell is active or active on an opponent OR you have a much longer cooldown on your Leap of Faith for as long as the spell is active.

[wiglin]

Not against raid bosses they're not, at least not comparing to a fvs. High DC's aren't going to land an instant kill or hold. They certainly don't have the damage escape system available to using wings. I think you might need to try again. Just sayin'.

A well geared palemaster has some of the best dr in the game. With their healing aura and negative energy burst, yes one could go toe to toe just like a favored soul using arcane dots. Then add their unlimited damage that cost a few hitpoints and you have a class that is pretty powerful. When you have the dr capabilities of a well built palemaster you do not need escape capabilities.

[Aashrym]

A well geared palemaster has some of the best dr in the game. With their healing aura and negative energy burst, yes one could go toe to toe just like a favored soul using arcane dots. Then add their unlimited damage that cost a few hitpoints and you have a class that is pretty powerful. When you have the dr capabilities of a well built palemaster you do not need escape capabilities.

FvS can get good DR to and a heal does more than a negative energy burst. The pale master free damage for hit points is low damage and when push comes to shove a FvS using melee options and a shoulder cannon and the light vulnerability has some pretty skookum options on top of his bonus hit point just for being a FvS (higher hit dice and more toughness enhancements edit: lich form definitely helps with this part) and much larger SP pool for the dot's.

I'm not saying pale masters are not powerful, but calling them insanely powerful compared to a fvs is a bit misleading when they are both top notch classes.