Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Rizzyn]

The "Nerf" has been implemented on Lamannia.

Your Favored Souls for this evening:

Chasmyr; I suppose he's more "Evoker-specced", basically I like to kill stuff with Spells and am equipped to do so. Recently changed some spells to have more Heals for crazy people doing the new Raids. Angel of Vengeance

Vennysha; A more heal-spec'd Angel of Vengeance, the Prestige brought her closer to "combat" spec than before, but she still heals very well.

My 1st Impression:

We winged about House Cannith and the Market for a bit. By the time you're done with the 5 clicks, with the 3 second cooldown, 1 has regenerated. IF the Goal was to stop Wing-Spam, mission accomplished I suppose. I was always a bit of a runner as the "Feather Fall" effect of the wings counted down, so for me, it means being a bit more patient while jumping around the Market for kicks. A quicker regen in "Public Areas" might be nice, but I don't feel like I lost a leg.

Venny's Impression:

My Wife believes its a stupid limitation to have in the Public Areas, and would like to see either a faster regen rate or no 5 use limit, but only in the Public Areas. In short, for her, part of the fun was winging around the market between quests or just goofing, this has been limited.

We chose to Solo Sins of Attrition, and made notes in our Guild Chat area.

Chasmyr; AC42 (46 w/Watcher's Blade); HP: 332 w/Kormor's Belt; 392 w/Vorne's Belt; largely sustainable north of 400HP w/buffs and armor.
Notable Gear: Epic Cavalry Plate, tier I; Epic Ornamental Dagger, tier III; Light and Darkness shield (unsuppressed thanks to therapy); Ring of the Bucaneer (16th level); Epic Cloak of Night; Great Commander Green Steel Goggles of Existential Stalemate; Torin's Choker

Vennysha; AC52/54 w/Watcher's Blade and buffs; HP: 402; 425 sustainable

Notable Gear: Dragontouched Plate Armor (Cha+6, Greater False Life, Earthgrab Guard); Epic Cloak of Night; Epic Ornamental Dagger, tier III; Thaaraak's Bracelet; Great Admiral's Tricorne (Natural Armor Bonus+5, Jump+15); Great Commander Green Steel Goggles of Existential Stalemate;

We consider ourselves "Middling" geared. Not a lot of Epic stuff, but what we have is quite good for what we do.

BUG: The AoV enhancement description stills states that the Aura causes a 20% vulnerability to Light, etc.

Sins of Attrition:

We were never terribly wing heavy. As we have stated, winging through Blade Barriers, where there is room to run around them, isn't the best use of the spell. We made it a point to not use our Wings, just to see if we could, feeling that the town test was enough. Generally speaking, I have in the past used the wings only in the narrow halls of Sins to get through two BBs, and to drag the mob through. We took a few more hits this way, BUT we tested the proc rate of the Aura of Menace debuff and 10% weakness seems to proc a bit more, and is thus more useful if our impressions are correct. Red Names do not get the Debuff, but they DO get the 10% Weakness to Light.

Resources used: 5 pots for Chasmyr, 6 pots for Vennysha. I started off being less careful with SP than Venny, but I believe I used my Sov Capstone a lot more than she did.

Venny completed without her wings; I used my Wings to fly back to the center shrine once I cleared to Cenodoxus, you know, for fun.

For the most part, Blade Barriers were heavily used. We used DP on the Fire Elementals, and used our Archons throughout. The improved proc rate of the Light Weakness and the length of it actually made a difference in the mopping up of the trash, and saved SP that would have been spent on Searing Lights or other single-target spells to finish them off if the BBs timed out. Neither of us used Extend Spell, which means we're both considering trading out that feat, as we didn't need it. Both Cinderspawns, the Efreeti, and Badge Spawned Boss went down to DP(DoT). We kited the trash, DoT'd the Bosses, and made it to the end with 2 shrine uses, and the aforementioned pots. Cendoxus we both chose to tank and DoT, no running about, no Wing-Kiting. He went down; Tank-Casting is the more reliable method, as opposed to kiting him around that one pillar.

All in all a success; without Wings. No abuse. No Game Deforming.

EDIT: We just ran the LoB Raid with Greataxer/Shade. I was on the Epic run, and both later runs on Elite and then Normal. Very, very challenging and difficult. I was asked to Kite and BB the Hounds, which I did and it worked pretty well for the most part. I was able to keep ahead of them with hastes and use of my Wings, but not very often, not because they were limited -- I'm not given to Wing-Spam in quests anyway -- but because I had to keep the Hounds at the edge of things, which means they kinda had to be nipping at my heels, literally.

I continue to be disappointed by the Nerf, as I don't see or understand its necessity, but we're not hobbled. It just remains terribly annoying. Perhaps it is the phrase "Game Deforming" that irks me, but in any case, I can add detail if necessary. It's late, and we scored some interesting crafting raid loot we're still sorting out.

[Ladas]

I know this thread has gotten a bit sloppy and plenty of namecalling and point proving... but it would be Great to know the devs are still reading/considering.
Especially after 20 pages of imput and discusssion.

Devs, please at least make mention if your current idea/plan is locked in for update 11, or if our imput is still being heard and considered.

Thanks.
~Silver

[furbyoats]

1) Fix your tanking classes, make intimidate and AC actually useful

2) Give those big bad bosses DoTs, it has been mentioned a lot in this thread, and while being a great idea...i personally think it would be bada$$ to have a raid boss mow you down if you run like a panzy.

3) Leave LoF alone! I built a FvS to spam wings...not to kite bosses, but for mobility when I'm not in combat.

Just because someone found a way to take out a boss with a class does NOT mean it needs a nerf. If 1 particular class can achieve said results, then look into why the boss fails.

Honestly I think a good suggestion would be (and yes, I am going to say this...sorry) to take mana pots OUT of the DDO store. People are soloing this content because you allow them to do it with their credit card. If you were restricted to using in game pots only, the results would change dramatically. I have a stack of store pots on my arcane, but i really try not to use them. It seems pointless if your only strategy is to dump your blue bar and refill it with the $20 you dropped to turbine.

If the boss is aggroed on a toon that is dotting them, have the boss return the favor. Nerfing an entire class because someone found an easy button is not the answer.

final thought: If you nerf wings, i promise you that you will just see an alternative method to achieve the same ends. Stop nerfing the player side, start beefing up the server side.

[Rizzyn]

Let me add that my "report" doesn't mean I'm "OK" with this Change. I'm not. This isn't what my Wife and I paid for, especially considering that no one has made a reasonable explanation as to why it was necessary and what it resolved. The LoB Raid seems more together, but that's not because the Wings are nerfed.

However, in the interest of honest disclosure and for those that can't test on the Lam Server, there you have it.

[kitsune_ko]

I know this thread has gotten a bit sloppy and plenty of namecalling and point proving... but it would be Great to know the devs are still reading/considering.
Especially after 20 pages of imput and discusssion.

Devs, please at least make mention if your current idea/plan is locked in for update 11, or if our imput is still being heard and considered.

Thanks.
~Silver

I am thinking if its already implemented on Lam, and in the release notes, it pretty much says their minds are made up.

...of course it was already decided by them shortly after Shades run, so it really should be no surprise.

[SableShadow]

I am thinking if its already implemented on Lam, and in the release notes, it pretty much says their minds are made up.

...of course it was already decided by them shortly after Shades run, so it really should be no surprise.

Heh. Guess I'm not the only one who read it that way, then...

Doesn't mean y'all can't call BS on it, tho. I can remember only a few instances where that's stopped dumb stuff from making it live, but they *have* happened.

[abbadon3718]

Thanks turbine. I will be taking a very long break and if i come back to the game anytime soon i certainly will not be playing my fvs. You know all those lfm's that stay up for 20 minutes just looking for "healers and go"? You know, the ones that people eventually leave because they are bored of waiting? There's going to be more of them. Have fun waiting on nerfed healers everyone. Casters, carry on soloing everything. Maybe for a challenge play a drow archmage with no umd and chug silver flame pots all day.

[broolthebeast]

im just going to delete my fvs and roll up something else.. Im not even going to TR, turbine doesnt deserve the extra cash.

[Shade]

What was overpowering about it? f

Your main is a cleric right?

I see your trying to solo ToD. A feat thats only ever been done by a favored soul.

Your screenshots getting to p3 are quite clearly also favored souls (Coincidence?).. Yet your signature lists your main as a cleric. Also the char you took on my elite/epic raids, so I would hope it was your main you took along =)

Solo ToD on your cleric instead. Tell me how fun the chains are and how part 2 was just as easy.

[Grace_ana]

I'm not going to rage quit or anything. I mean, I don't have an FvS anyway. However, I will say that I had been about to buy FvS right before this all hit the fan. Now I'm not going to, because eh, why? And while my measly financial contributions in and of themselves don't mean much, I doubt I'm the only one that is going to hold off on purchasing something that's been nerfed for no particularly valid reason I can see. That's what I suspect will happen most - not ragequitting or huge tantrums, but people deciding that FvS isn't worth the money anymore. I also suspect that had it not been nerfed but simply incorporated some of the suggestions like making chains apply, the FvS would still be very useful to have in the LoB raid and as a result more people would buy it. Then you'd end up with a raid that isn't too easy (chains) but also encouraging real money expenditure. I can't really comprehend why that wouldn't be the preferred path for a business.

[Volaxis]

Just spent 3 months TRing my fvs with wiz and sorc past lifes to find the only reason i play this class, wings, is about to be nerfed. The reason why they want to clip our wings is to give more importance to melles, but they dont understand that you cant use the wings/kite method in a group of melles. It also doesnt work with web/FW.

Why did I give up playing oblivion after 3 hours? Takes to long to get anywhere. A quick games a good game. I never play cleric because with a party of monks/barbs your left in the dust. Imagine this game if they took away striders and cut walking time in half, it would be hell, and this nerf is a bit of hell. Anything that cuts the time of running out to dq1 for the 1000th time is a good thing.

There will always be a class that is best at doing one thing, if you must nerf the current class at the top you'll never be done.

The solution your looking for is increase monster speed. Dont nerf a fun thing, just make the game harder.

[MrTops]

Your main is a cleric right?

I see your trying to solo ToD. A feat thats only ever been done by a favored soul.

Your screenshots getting to p3 are quite clearly also favored souls (Coincidence?).. Yet your signature lists your main as a cleric. Also the char you took on my elite/epic raids, so I would hope it was your main you took along =)

Solo ToD on your cleric instead. Tell me how fun the chains are and how part 2 was just as easy.

I think most people agreed that chains should clip wings. And most people are happy with the harried state clipping wings.

So a general nerf to wings is the way to go?

Does that make you happy?

I mean, do you really want a general wing nerf, since that wasn't what you were complaining about?

[Shade]

I think most people agreed that chains should clip wings. And most people are happy with the harried state clipping wings.

So a general nerf to wings is the way to go?

Does that make you happy?

Well the harried and chains clipping wings were my original ideas. (tho im sure others thought the same at somep oint)

When the devs implement my suggestions it makes me happy.

When they nerf a class I play in a general way and not implement my related suggestion.. No not really.

and yea what you quoted was just my answer to protokons question.. Not really anything else.

[Shade]

I mean, do you really want a general wing nerf, since that wasn't what you were complaining about?

Nice edit.. and by nice I mean utterly false.

I have absolutely never asked for any general wing nerf and infact said very clearly i'd vote against it.

meh i dont know why I bother responding to these anymore tho. last one for the night anyways, you win getting me frusterated by person the 90000th person to try to put words into my mouth I never said.

Provide exact quotes from me, else stop trying to provote other players for absolutely no reason as its agains the forum rules.

[Iwinbyrollup]

I think most people agreed that chains should clip wings. And most people are happy with the harried state clipping wings.

Yes.

It makes absolutely no sense that wings should bypass a game mechanism that was theoretically put in place to reduce lag.

And really? You're chained. If the devs are so concerned about balance between melees and casters, maybe they should consider that chains ruin both a melee's attack speed and run speed, while having no effect on a caster's casting speed and not touching a FvS's/Air Savant's wing speed. Even if it restricted wings the chains would still be punishing melees more than FvS, so why not balance the playing field just a bit? Isn't that what they want?*

*Melees in the above refers to the non-monk variety.

[SableShadow]

I mean, do you really want a general wing nerf, since that wasn't what you were complaining about?

I think people are reading his title (highlights in red), and not reading the rest of it (key points in blue, with an extra underline tossed in):

Clip their wings.. Yea I know, disabling class abilities is mean and not a popular idea.. But wings are so insanely and utterly powerful in this raid they litteral just break it. I mean he chains any other class (or even gets many basic melee attacks in) - they are dead, plain and simple. a Fvs gets chained.. no problem, wing away.
So add a minor runspeed debuff to his Touch of the Mornlands of debuff. Nothing major, just enough to make kiting difficult for all classes, say -10%.
And set it so while under the effects of this debuff, wings are disabled. Same as tumble gets disabled while under movement speed debuffs. Same should apply to his chains, they wrap around your wings too.

That's not all that far off (in fact, it's exactly spot on) to what most people are saying as an alternative to a general debuff.

...I feel so dirty now.

[MrTops]

Well the harried and chains clipping wings were my original ideas. (tho im sure others thought the same at somep oint)

When the devs implement my suggestions it makes me happy.

When they nerf a class I play in a general way and not implement my related suggestion.. No not really.

and yea what you quoted was just my answer to protokons question.. Not really anything else.

Hey Shade, I was asking a question, not making a statement.

Just saying that most people seem happy with the suggestions you made and not with the Devs response. If you feel the same way, and you seem to have some influence, maybe say you think the general nerf is not the way to go and encourage the Devs to go with your original suggestion.

[Flugzeug]

yes, if Turbine would make the wings be unusable in the new raid, or have the boss debuff them, but keep them as they were pre-update 11 for the rest of the game that would be deserved. Otherwise I'll be running many less epic demon queens on my favored soul. There's a reason my cleric doesn't do epic demon queen, I'd fall asleep on the run to DQ1. Even though having 4 mass cure spells makes healing DQ2 Epic so much easier on my cleric than on my fvs with 2 mass cures. Just one example of how I'll be frustrated to how this change was implemented. Good intentions, horrible execution.

[MrTops]

That's not all that far off (in fact, it's exactly spot on) to what most people are saying as an alternative to a general debuff.

Thing is, I think most people seem happy with Shades suggestions, but that's not what the Devs seem intent on implementing.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Your main is a cleric right?

I see your trying to solo ToD. A feat thats only ever been done by a favored soul.

Your screenshots getting to p3 are quite clearly also favored souls (Coincidence?).. Yet your signature lists your main as a cleric. Also the char you took on my elite/epic raids, so I would hope it was your main you took along =)

Solo ToD on your cleric instead. Tell me how fun the chains are and how part 2 was just as easy.

So what you're saying is, FvS need to be nerfed because if they are willing to guzzle dozen upon dozen upon dozen of majors, they will have an easier (not easy, just easier) time soloing ToD than a cleric will.