Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Rizzyn]

We're going to test it tonight in one of favorite quests to Solo/Duo; Sins of Attrition.

We know the quest exceptionally well, and had early instruction from an excellent Cleric that used to farm it on her own. I will post a review here. I've also been told that the logic behind the nerf will likely (hopefully) be revealed after the furor has died down, and that the decision wasn't made lightly. Yes, I sent a PM, and they were nice enough to answer. I will withhold my Hades and Damnation reaction until I see it in play.

My key concern was that the Nerf did not address the problem it was outlined with. Possibly, they were addressing other issues with it, but I'm not seeing it, and hope it's made clear at some future point.

[katz]

people are talking like FvS are losing their wings completely. if i read that right, you still get to wing every 3 seconds... you just have a limit of 5. and they refresh at a rate of 15 seconds each. which means, starting fresh, you'll have 6 leaps before you'll have to wait more than 3 seconds for another leap.
yes, 6. by the time you're done with your 5th leap, the first will have refreshed and be ready to use again.

this change won't effect me. i don't use my wings SO OFTEN that i'll be hung up waiting on a refresh.

[Avidus]

I know this is forum, but people are overreacting a bit. Ok, I understand players that say 'game is lot less fun now' - because wings truly are fun - but player that say 'I'll retire fvs for an arcane' do puzzle me... FvS is still at least as good as arcanes are. I don't think that notion of Barbs being better than FvSs even merits a single laugh.

Chill down, please. Well, unless you believe game will never feel the same and you played only constantly winging FvSs... I'd be very ****ed off too, then.

I am definately going to retire my FvS for my archmage and i'll tell you why. As a favored soul there are quite often times while questing or in pugs that you need to throw some heals on the party. Not a big deal, they are a healer class after all. Now favored souls are just clerics with an escape action boost, more spell points and less flexability.
Now my FvS is a lot less fun for me. I play for fun. My archmage can still self heal, solo the same content and I never get called on to baby sit or waste resources healing a meatshield tank. My archamge can go offensive in a party with no worries. It's actually much more fun to play the Archmage now.

Oh and Rizzyn care to share the details, pm is fine. I just don't think nerfing the wings is going to fix the problem laid out by torc.

[voodoogroves]

people are talking like FvS are losing their wings completely. if i read that right, you still get to wing every 3 seconds... you just have a limit of 5. and they refresh at a rate of 15 seconds each. which means, starting fresh, you'll have 6 leaps before you'll have to wait more than 3 seconds for another leap.
yes, 6. by the time you're done with your 5th leap, the first will have refreshed and be ready to use again.

this change won't effect me. i don't use my wings SO OFTEN that i'll be hung up waiting on a refresh.

Slowpoke!

;-)

[katz]

30% striders and the *occasional* wing use... i keep up just fine


lol

i mostly end up using my wings to get to *that ledge way over there* kinda thing. while the rest of the group looks on enviously and jealously calls me dirty names while i'm out of earshot (Crow... i'm lookin at you... )

^_^

[porq]

The changes to Leap of Faith are too draconian. We go from unlimited, 3s cooldown at practically no cost to a very, very limited number of uses(6 if you use on recharge in succession) I understand the change was to help address the problem with kiting the new raid bosses and kiting in general, but this adversely affects use in other parts of the game too. This is going to hurt players that like to solo run some quests(Sins of Attrition comes to mind) or any other situation where mobility is the only thing keeping you alive.

I know it will not be reverted to it's original form as per Torc's comments, but I would be a lot happier with this nerf if we instead got 10 uses before recharge rather than what I feel is a limited 5. I would prefer unlimited uses though, I like the idea of a 9s cooldown and no limit to usage rather than the current implementation, but that's just me. That and some sort of fix to the raid itself, since this nerf revolves around somewhat cheesy tactics of kiting a raid boss around for the entire fight.

[Invalid_50]

if your intent is to lose money on this deal, you guys are doing a superb job!

[budalic]

I am definately going to retire my FvS for my archmage and i'll tell you why. As a favored soul there are quite often times while questing or in pugs that you need to throw some heals on the party. Not a big deal, they are a healer class after all. Now favored souls are just clerics with an escape action boost, more spell points and less flexability.
Now my FvS is a lot less fun for me. I play for fun. My archmage can still self heal, solo the same content and I never get called on to baby sit or waste resources healing a meatshield tank. My archamge can go offensive in a party with no worries. It's actually much more fun to play the Archmage now.

Oh and Rizzyn care to share the details, pm is fine. I just don't think nerfing the wings is going to fix the problem laid out by torc.

I'm considering rolling a FvS* - and tell you want, I'm gonna heal just in raids, and I'll try to avoid that too. I'll cite my lag (which is really an issue for me) as a main reason. But even if I didn't lag, I'd play it as an offensive caster, and heal only friends I know, and to whom I have no issues relating to. I do play mostly with friends, though, so that will be less of an issue.

*actually, TRing a wizard I specifically built to TR in FvS... rather strange story why I did that.. wanted 34 pt build, and had only 28 at the time. Now I have 32 point build (unlocked favor on my main... also a wizard) but I was so lazy that wizard got only to level 17 or so. Also, multiple-month breaks from game I have occasionally (I'm on one such break currently - hence forum frenzy) are an obstacle, too.

[Angelus_dead]

The changes to Leap of Faith are too draconian. We go from unlimited, 3s cooldown at practically no cost

What matters is:
Can anyone give a defense as to why Favored Souls should get Leap of Faith with unlimited 3s cooldown at practially no cost?

[Pewf]

Just loaded up Lama and Logged my FvS. If this goes live, after my 20 completions... I will in fact TR into an Arcane.

Also just a note:

I still can BB kite and DOT quite well with a Haste Pot + Morah's Belt in New Invasion.

I just hate having to chug haste pots to get where I have to go now...

Sigh.

No thank you.

[Rizzyn]

What matters is:
Can anyone give a defense as to why Favored Souls should get Leap of Faith with unlimited 3s cooldown at practially no cost?

What matters is: There has been no clear cut explanation as to why it was necessary to nerf in the first place. We are still waiting for one.

If it was to mitigate excessive kiting; it won't. If it was to prevent a top tier 10 Life FvS TR from soloing ToD, I'm not convinced this will. If it was to alter the tactic of Tank-Casting, it won't. If this is a reaction to a Epic Success in a New Raid, it is suspect in that the success may also say more about the raid than about the party's composition. One does not need to justify what one already has. However, I do not think a clear explanation is too much to ask when they are making a change, and there has not been one.

To mirror your question; What's your argument that a Favored Soul shouldn't have Leap of Faith with a 3second cooldown for 5 SP?

The idea put forward is that the Nerf resolves a particular issue. It doesn't.

[katz]

What matters is:
Can anyone give a defense as to why Favored Souls should get Leap of Faith with unlimited 3s cooldown at practially no cost?

because in D&D they can fly not just zip around quazi-fly-jumping... fly.

Wings: At 17th level, a favored soul sprouts wings and gains a fly speed of 60 feet, with good maneuverability. Flight can cause a problem for favored souls who rely on lots of armor, since they can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while wearing medium or heavy armor. All things considered, however, that problem isn't a bad one to have.

i know this is DDO, and not D&D. some concessions have to be made... but fly is what people want. not 5 jumps then wait.

[voodoogroves]

What matters is:
Can anyone give a defense as to why Favored Souls should get Leap of Faith with unlimited 3s cooldown at practially no cost?

I think plenty of us are ok with situational limits - chain us, hold us, etc.

The basic fact is - it's why you play the class ... the fun. If the fun doesn't balance the annoyance, play something else.

[budalic]

I just hate having to chug haste pots to get where I have to go now...

Sigh.

No thank you.

You could get some haste clickies... Time Sensing goggles from Chrono are very nice, especially the epic version (which also has +2 exc wis to help your bbs).

EDIT: Actually, non-epic version has low duration... meh.

[Rizzyn]

You could get some haste clickies... Time Sensing goggles from Chrono are very nice, especially the epic version (which also has +2 exc wis to help your bbs).

These ARE quite nice. I've not been home to test the Nerf yet. I did more Running in a pattern, then Winging for my BBs, so we'll see how it goes. Sins is as good a place as any to test, those halls get tight really, really fast.

[Crazy_Cat]

This change just plain sucks.

[mutilador]

If you dont like the changes you can cancel your subscripting and stop to spend money in tp's. Maybe this way they can care about us.

No paying this game since i got banned in Mabar event BY MISTAKE.

[Iwinbyrollup]

I tested this on Lammania. Ran a quest (will run Sins later for more testing but expect the same result) and there was absolutely no difference in quest gameplay for me. I'm just not winging around that much. If I didn't know that there was a change, I wouldn't have noticed it while running a quest.

Where did I notice it? When trying to do one of my favorite things: wing around town. Not necessarily getting anywhere, I just enjoy winging about. Why? Because it's fun, and sometimes fun doesn't need to have an endgoal.

So with this change, Turbine has successfully nerfed my fun without having a single functional effect on how I run quests.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Why can't we go with a solution that specifically targets the problem rather than just nerfing from orbit?

[rvdvelden]

Now that they put this live, I can see what's going to happen next:

First we get to hear:

After having heard the community's reaction, we're considering to rethink the whole change to Leap of Faith. Unfortunately, as this change is part of a bigger package, we can't prevent it from going to the live servers. We will fix the issue as soon as we can (read: in about a week or four).*

Immediately after going live, the following statement is released:

After a bit of investigation, we have discovered that the Leap of Faith ability for Favoured Souls is causing many instance crashes throughout all servers.

As a result, we have locked these characters so players will be unable to access them. This should prevent many of the instance crashes that have been happening lately. Additionally, this will be fixed in the next update.

Thanks for your patience!

They will round up all the Favoured Souls in the Crystal Cove area and board it up, so that no single character can escape from it. After tinkering with LoF for a couple of weeks, we finally get to hear:

After careful deliberation, we will revert all changes to Leap of Faith. In order to balance this, Favoured Souls will lose access to the spells Divine Punishment and Blade Barrier and they're spell points will be cut in half

And then the whole community will rejoice that the Wings are restored to their original state....







/end sarcasm



*just think of crafting with raid loot and you'll get the point

[Cordovan]

Please do not insult others, or this thread will have to be closed.