Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Symerith]

what i am really curious about at this point is, are the Devs even paying attention to our pleas and outcries, or are they simply set on their course of action and have written us off?

They will be making a huge mistake if they are set on their initial course of action.

The issue appeared when they introduced the new prestige Angel of Vengeance along with Divine Punishment, and now they want to nerf one of the best features of the class?

If they don't realise the discussion about wings is attracting a lot of ppl and that everyone that has played a FvS up to 17 will say NO to this, they will be making a huge mistake by nerfing wings.

[stainer]

Could we get silver flame pots put on a timer... like 5 mins per? Those pots are allowing classes to solo Bosses and quests that were not meant to be done brute force. It maybe more effective to remove them from the game. They could be considered an easy button.

Thank you

[rvdvelden]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

You want to nerf a skill that's already nerfed? You should've given FS the Fly spell like in Reaver's Refuge.

In all seriousness: you really want to waste precious development time in cutting down an ability that is thought to be abused by a few players? You couldn't think of more important things to change? I'd say leave it as it is and get on with some real programming issues like handwraps or crafting or something like that.

[kitsune_ko]

I still think that the Dev team really needs to come up with a valid explaination as to why this is a manditory nerf to restore game balance.

Sorry; but if your gimping a class skill that has been perfectly accepted by both players and Devs alike for the last two years, and one that is a pay class; meaning most every FvS paid with USD for the privilege to be a FvS at some point, you ned to provide a much more detailed and thorough explaination then a one liner you have provided so far which basically says "Well, you can potentially kite with it".

Because I have to say, my first reaction to this shocker of a revelation, was to go "...and?"

If your heart is absolutely set on breaking something exceptionally popular with your player base, and something that needed to be paid for, I suapect most of us are going to want t osee a really, really stellar explaination as to why if you want us to accept it.

[Pewf]

Nerf DP, Improve mob AI, leave my wings alone.

Thanks.

EDIT: Came back and decided to add some more thought.

I purchased FvS Back in 2010. I never rolled one up until I decided to give it a try. Once I hit 12, I fell in love with Blade Barrior... Yadda Yadda. All my other toons have been horribly gimped, but I feel fairly certain that my FvS Is probably the most enjoyable of all my toons (And Least Gimp). (That is also the reason he's the only one linked in my signature! :P)

I capped a Sorcerer for Wind Dance (Because I hated to heal... ) Wind Dance was very fun, especially considering I had a 2 minute haste and a 20 minute jump! It was perfect, I could deal with the 6 Second cool down. However, as a FvS I don't have haste (Without spending plat to achieve clickies or a bunch of pots... Or Arcane Support :P), and all the jump I get are from Morah's Belt and Risia Jellies (Or again, a helpful arcane or ranger..).. I find my self winging all the time to catch up or to zoom over to heal someone who is running a little low on HP - and of course I use it to run all over marketplace in my spare time!

Sure, I am guilty of soloing and kiting the boss through BB and DPing - but in my opinion I'd MUCH rather you nerf DP then touch my wings.. They are what makes FvS so fun for me, but what do I know? I'm only a person trying to enjoy the game.

I admit I was quite upset by a guildie suggesting I read this thread (He always tells me to stop winging so much..). Just leave them alone, please.

[wiglin]

Wings doesn't really effect the power of DP. DP and Shield blocking is whats effective. The issue with wings is bb kiting, which at that point requires a pretty high dc, that is not easy to get. This really shouldn't be an issue. Very few players solo raids with their fvs as a whole. If devs don't like kiting then chain the wings. Don't restrict all movement with chains so other classes don't cry, just ground the wings through chains and grease. I wouldn't quit the game over a class change, but I will retire my FvS if wings go to 1 every 15 seconds, unless they are unlimited in public areas, no more heals from me.

[wiglin]

Even a non good equipt character can dominate with bb and spam of LoF which a cleric cant do so easily . Its a win button .....

This is far from true. Epic mobs have pretty good saves. A non evocation with max wis, is not going to solo epics with their 100 point bb's, and evasion mobs taking zero damage. It may be true while leveling, but not so at level 20. A melee soul that dumped wis does not solo epics like their nothing, unless they drink mana potion after mana potion.

LoF is the defining class ability of a FvS, it is the only reason I play one. If I lost wings I would rather have the spell slots and healing aura that comes with radiant servant. The extra spell points of a fvs are offset from the non sp healing radiant servants get.

If we are nurfing wings, we need to nurf palemasters, since when they are fully geared they have unlimited damage, the best dr in the game, and the best instakill. A fully geared palemaster can do way more than a fully geared fvs with wings.

I don't think either of them need nurfing, it takes alot of gear, farming, and trs's to be that effective in epics. With that much time invested you should be pretty effective.

[broolthebeast]

its sad when a small amount of the player population, who are more geared and more practiced ruin something for the rest of the player base.

I could see this being a last straw in a few peoples hats.

[Rizzyn]

Blade Barrier is NOT a win button. It is not even the most damaging of the spells that one can kite a mob through, nor can it be placed on a target that has been made stable either by tanking or positioning like Wall of Fire can. The mechanics of the spell requires kiting, it can be done without wings. There have been Clerics that have already undercut statements that Leap of Faith is required to utilize it; Leap of Faith isn't the best kiting tool since Haste.

Blade Barrier has a reflex save, and is NOT the answer to every Mob in the Game. It certainly was not the answer to the LoB; DoTs, however, were. In Epics Blade Barrier is even less of an answer, depending on where you go. You can undo trash mobs with them, but so can a Pale Master and a nice Wail, I don't hear the term "game breaking" about that as of yet.

[Deamus]

This is far from true. Epic mobs have pretty good saves. A non evocation with max wis, is not going to solo epics with their 100 point bb's, and evasion mobs taking zero damage. It may be true while leveling, but not so at level 20. A melee soul that dumped wis does not solo epics like their nothing, unless they drink mana potion after mana potion.

LoF is the defining class ability of a FvS, it is the only reason I play one. If I lost wings I would rather have the spell slots and healing aura that comes with radiant servant. The extra spell points of a fvs are offset from the non sp healing radiant servants get.

If we are nurfing wings, we need to nurf palemasters, since when they are fully geared they have unlimited damage, the best dr in the game, and the best instakill. A fully geared palemaster can do way more than a fully geared fvs with wings.

I don't think either of them need nurfing, it takes alot of gear, farming, and trs's to be that effective in epics. With that much time invested you should be pretty effective.

Well its so true cause ofcource i talked for max wis FVS..... your comparison is null.

And you just said yourself while lvling fvs dominate whatever the equipment if they are wis based .

One more thing , the equipment you need to have for effective bb kiting are sup potency 6 item and +3 wis from tod or gs to reach 38 wis only . these 2 items at least are so easy to get . After all reflex save is the most weak on mobs......

Thats why people are in outrage like they were with tod of monk cause these abilities are OP and it was so easy to dominate any quest with minimum equipment....

Noone said to remove wings ... They just need nerf so as not to be spamable and win button .

PS. My main is dark monk and i suported the tod nerf for balance

[LVSammy]

So, there is a lot of talk goin' on about this and that in regards to the total uberness of fvs wings and how it's so game breaking that it needs to be nerfed... I'm still trying to figure out what all the talk about favored souls kiting raid bosses is about. Not including the new raids coming in U11, in what raid currently do fvs EVER kite a raid boss? One answer... While soloing, and most of the time, not even then. A favored souls ability to have mega hp, reduce damage taken, and single target heal, make it even more powerful while shield block tanking. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the favored soul wing ability.

So, because there are fvs kiting the new raid bosses on lammaland for the upcoming update that is currently in TESTING, why do the devs think the problem lies with the fvs wing ability that has been in the game since it came to ddo. Maybe i'm just a stickler for logic, but doesnt that imply that there's something wrong with the new raid bosses mechanic? Now, I know it would be so much easier to just clip the wings, but come on, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

The reason most of us made a favored soul in the first place was primarily for the wings ability, and for me at least, not even because of it's ability in combat, but for the sheer pleasure of winging around endlessly throughout the game. I mean, is there noone else out there that hit 17 on their fvs and spent the next 2-3 hrs. just winging around the entire game for fun? Don't do this to us devs. Solve the issue with the NEW content, not nerf our BELOVED wings we've had forever.

And since we're on this note... Please, can someone explain to me the reason sorc's got the shaft in the cool-down department? I mean, what the hell? I do see a problem here and think there is no reason that the wind dance cool-down shouldn't be the same 3 sec, 5 sp as the favored soul.

Remember, remember, the 5th of November...

[Renvar]

From the LOB discussion thread:



From this Thread:






I figured I should make a new topic because the other one was derailed.

My thoughts:
Wings aren't the problem, the DOTs are. The problem isn't that the wings are inherently OP, but the ability to keep aggro while winging is. Blade barriers won't keep aggro.

Wings are, in my opinion, the most fun ability in the game because of their spamability. Ever try the sorc air dance? Not nearly as fun because of their long cooldown. Cut down on the wings spamability and Turbine will probably lose people buying the FVS class.

Remember that the wings do cost sp, and that most new players can't afford to be winging all the time.

Not being able to wing while chained would seem fair and not really gimp the main draw of the class. Increasing the SP cost would just hurt new players, and increasing the cooldown would cause the ability to be less fun.

Agree with the OP. Wings have been around for 2 years and are not OP. DoT's are. DoT's allow aggro maintenance by a divine or arcane caster without active/ongoing interaction with the mob/boss. I can solo heal Part 4/5 of Shroud or any part of ToD or VoD, a full party and maintain max stacks of DoT's on the boss. I can tank the boss and maintain aggro with only DoT's on a WF caster or an FvS. (Note: TANK, not KITE). Kiting with wings is actually a less viable strategy. It is only used heavily in soloing.

If reducing the ability of FvS to solo quests is important then A) DoT's are a more key issue and B) Why are FvS being singled out when WF Arcane Casters have been soloing or duoing every quest in the game, up to and including epic raids, for years.

If you want to reduce the amount of diving/arcane tanking/kiting, then modify DoT's and Mob AI. Make bosses chain and teleport/telekensis players with agro more often to stop them from kiting or manuvering. Permanently gimping a class feature that makes the FvS unique and gives it personality is a poor way to go. And one that doesn't even solve the desired problem.

[blade_of_will]

My opinion on dots vs wings:

People completely overrate damage. DoTs may need a nerf, they might not. Im leaning on the side of a small to moderate nerf, because they mean a lot to casters for doing damage to bosses. That said, while everyone talks about how much dps this or that does, and how important damage is, I would argue that all you need is the ability to do damage. In many/most cases, utility and survivability mean much more than damage and are inherently more powerful in DDO. When people ask "do we have the dps needed for this boss?" what they really mean is "Do we have the dps needed for this boss needed to kill it before we run out of resources and it kills us?" For this reason I would say, if fvs are considered too powerful as-is, the first place to look would be leap for the utility provides if utilized properly.

Permanently gimping a class feature that makes the FvS unique and gives it personality is a poor way to go. And one that doesn't even solve the desired problem.

I didnt realize that a "3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds" was gimp.

[wiglin]

One more thing , the equipment you need to have for effective bb kiting are sup potency 6 item and +3 wis from tod or gs to reach 38 wis only . these 2 items at least are so easy to get . After all reflex save is the most weak on mobs......

Their are far more melee souls on ghallanda in my party experience than their are evocation focused. A melee soul does not have the dc's to solo epics with bb. You do not get wings until level 17, so while leveling wings do not assist in ownage. Its the fact that bb is at its best with the damage it does at level 12. Drinking a haste potion and using bb is plenty effective. LoF is a fun and conveyance factor.

There are also plenty of mobs that will not chase you through a bb, they will stand still and either cast spells or spam arrows.Then add in the mobs with evasion that most epics have and it will take alot of sp for energy drains weaken them to the point of them not saving. It is alot harder to solo epics with a fvs then it is a caster. Casters have more tools at their disposal, that bb and wings do not even comes close to for soloing epics.

The times when using wings is an easier tactic can be solved with chains causing wings to be grounded, without nurfing the overall use of wings for convenience of moving around and the fun factor of leaping around.

[voodoogroves]

I didnt realize that a "3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds" was gimp.

Try enjoying it about 30 seconds in ...

[Pape_27]

I have thought about this since i read the op yesterday. Im not rightly in favor of nerfing the ability to use wings.

Are wings a powerful addition? to the FvS class Why yes they are.

Are they an overpowering force in the game? They can be.

Are they game breaking? No, not by themselves.

The FvS wings are the identity of the FvS class. Its what makes them special. The extra sp is nice, but really, one store pot and the difference in sp between a cleric and fvs is negated. Curtailing the use of wings basically sucks the fun out of the class.

I have heard mention kiting bosses as the main reason behind the the proposed nerf. Well, basically the wings are nice, but they arent the reason the tactic is successful. The kiting method works just as well for an earth bound cleric (with jump) as it does for a FvS who wings their way across a BB or two.

so no thanks, /not signed and a hi, welcome to the idea of nerfing FvS wings.

[Rizzyn]

Agree with the OP. Wings have been around for 2 years and are not OP. DoT's are. DoT's allow aggro maintenance by a divine or arcane caster without active/ongoing interaction with the mob/boss. I can solo heal Part 4/5 of Shroud or any part of ToD or VoD, a full party and maintain max stacks of DoT's on the boss. I can tank the boss and maintain aggro with only DoT's on a WF caster or an FvS. (Note: TANK, not KITE). Kiting with wings is actually a less viable strategy. It is only used heavily in soloing.

If reducing the ability of FvS to solo quests is important then A) DoT's are a more key issue and B) Why are FvS being singled out when WF Arcane Casters have been soloing or duoing every quest in the game, up to and including epic raids, for years.

If you want to reduce the amount of diving/arcane tanking/kiting, then modify DoT's and Mob AI. Make bosses chain and teleport/telekensis players with agro more often to stop them from kiting or manuvering. Permanently gimping a class feature that makes the FvS unique and gives it personality is a poor way to go. And one that doesn't even solve the desired problem.

Agreed. I've also seen more than one WF Tank-Sorc complete with the "Refrigerator Door of Doom" Shield. I have yet to see a proper explanation for the necessity of this change, as it has been both implicitly and explicitly stated that it is a "game deforming" ability that has altered the face of the "Raid Space". If there is a problem, any changes should fix that problem, changing Leap of Faith does not address the problem.

I'm not against Change, where Change is due, but it should resolve the stated problem, or at least be clearly explained with regards to its necessity.

That one supported a nerf to an already imbalanced ability that had no save, and could proc 2 500 point strikes or was it 1000? In the right stance, I believe Wind was the favorite, At 9th level?? Does not add weight to the notion that LoF is overpowered. Indeed, the average Blade Barrier, which is the broad central group of players in the game...not the ones that have gone Melee or full-on Caster, but average player, will not see 500 points on their Blade Barriers. Even with a 15 second cooldown on ToD, which can still doublestrike if built right I believe, in the same 30 seconds that a BB lasts, a Dark Monk can potentially strike a target(s) for roughly 2000 points of damage...even tightly kiting a single target with a BB, never mind "Wingkiting" which actually doesn't make the best use of a Blade Barrier, the average Blade Barrier might not do 2000 points of damage. Indeed, the average 9th Level Monk might not either --Now that it is balanced.

Blade Barrier is not the spell that steals aggro; DoTs are. Leap of Faith is not the problem, Kiting is supposedly the problem, or misplaced Caster-Tanks that sideline Melees. As has been stated, Kiting is not a common tactic for Raids, that it met with success and has been found to be the ONLY viable tactic in a brand new Raid in its TEST phase does not make the problem Wings. If that IS even the source of the reasoning; I have yet to see a proper answer.

[Khurse]

It's just another sign that the Devs (who continue to insist tehy too play teh game and love it) have no idea how the game actually works.

People argued that Dots were overpowered without a save, and that a FVS could DOT/BB kite the bosses around with little effort (assuming a minimal level of hand eye coordination for the player) ,
The Devs looked at this, said "Holy **** the players are right! We better nerf the wings.

Players responded saying "***, no it's the damage they can do from the DOT that lets the wings be useful, just give the DOTs a save, things will be fine,don't nerf the wings, don't change the DOT damage, just give it a save"
Devs said "Oh, OK we get it know- so it's the wings that cause FVS to get aggro, Who knew? But don't worry, we'll nerf those aggro causing wings"

And the players continue to ask "***?"

While I'm equally sure the Devs are griping at Turbine saying "They asked us to nerf the wings, we nerfed the wings! What's with these players? "

Maybe by update 12 Turbine will have hired someone who realizes you don't spell "Wings" D-O-T.

[Rizzyn]

My opinion on dots vs wings:
People completely overrate damage. DoTs may need a nerf, they might not. Im leaning on the side of a small to moderate nerf, because they mean a lot to casters for doing damage to bosses. That said, while everyone talks about how much dps this or that does, and how important damage is, I would argue that all you need is the ability to do damage. In many/most cases, utility and survivability mean much more than damage and are inherently more powerful in DDO. When people ask "do we have the dps needed for this boss?" what they really mean is "Do we have the dps needed for this boss needed to kill it before we run out of resources and it kills us?" For this reason I would say, if fvs are considered too powerful as-is, the first place to look would be leap for the utility provides if utilized properly.

The damage isn't necessarily the issue. Aggro Management is. Aggro is currently a by-product of dealing out heavy damage. A DoT pulls the aggro from the Tank, if there is one in play, and forces casters to either Kite, stop Casting so the Tank can reacquire aggro, or be tank themselves in order to keep applying the DoTs or other damaging spells. I, personally, have never been in Raids where "Kiting" or "Wing-Kiting" won the day. Apparently, this experience is not only mine. Nor have I ever been asked to "Wingkite a Shroud Run". Heal? Yes. In fact, I've not ever been asked to Wing-Kite anything, be it Raid or Quest. I have done so, where warranted and workable, usually if the mobs are large and need trimming, or a constant spawn for x amount of time, like that Rare in the Orchard; Wall of Fire can accomplish the same thing, and no one has called it "Game Deforming".

I can only assume the Leap Utility you're thinking of is the Kiting portion, but how often have you seen a Raid won by kiting? Or sat back and watched a Favored Soul handle a Raid Boss on his own? I have not.

The "Problem" they're trying to resolve is "Boss Kiting" winning out over "Boss Tanking", because it sidelines the Melee classes, but there is already data on these very forums that counter that notion. Such as the viability of Tanks themselves in the LoB Raid and in General, such as Kiting being the best strategy to beat the LoB at this time. Nothing that has been stated makes clear how Leap of Faith is in any way "Game Deforming", because if it is, there are several other Classes and Class abilities that will need to be "under review".

[Angelus_dead]

Apparently, this experience is not only mine. Nor have I ever been asked to "Wingkite a Shroud Run".

There's no tanking in Shroud.