Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[voodoogroves]

Wings are active, and fun. Movement is fun.

Do what you need to do in order to balance things, but please be careful when you take away the "fun".

I would wager there are tons of FVS out there who would be happy to lose AoV, Divine Punishment, etc. just to keep their wings. There are tons of people who play Air sorcs JUST for wind dance - and not because they plan on boss kiting.


Wings make it an active game. It sucks that the monster AI can't figure that out.

[JeisonBlade]

a simple solution that someone mentioned already would be to increase the SP cost. it sounds like the original intention was to give FvS a boost now and then, the DV DOT came later, and theyre only now seeing how well the two synergise to make FvS OMGBBQIWIN buttons.

Jack the cost up, and FvS have to manage their use as spamming would run them dry.

[Rizzyn]

The problem is that the game design, currently, encourages everyone to play FvS, maybe casters, and nothing else.

Right now, the only reason not to do all FvS runs all the time is inertia. The game used to reward variety; melee DPS used to be important for killing Raid bosses. So there's still a bunch of melee characters running around. So it's faster to just take them, instead of holding out for the ideal all-FvS group.

But over time, people tend towards the optimal. Just look at Melee Rangers; at one time, they were the best DPS melee, and were quite popular. Then they got nerfed. Now, they're rare.

If the Devs want to maintain an interesting, well-balanced game, they need to ensure one single class isn't the answer to all the challenges they throw at us. Bosses are supposed to be big challenges, with careful coordination of tank (sometimes), DPS, healing, and sometimes CC. But a party full of FvS trivializes them. One FvS kites, while the rest pile on DPs. Easy.

And yet many of the Solo Raid feats highlighted by some forum members are not Favored Souls. A Full Party of Pale Masters would be similarly dangerous, as would a full party of Greataxers, for example. If I had a choice, I'd bing 10 Greataxers, and 2 healers, and watch things die in a hurry.

[Jaid314]

a simple solution that someone mentioned already would be to increase the SP cost. it sounds like the original intention was to give FvS a boost now and then, the DV DOT came later, and theyre only now seeing how well the two synergise to make FvS OMGBBQIWIN buttons.

Jack the cost up, and FvS have to manage their use as spamming would run them dry.

the suggestion that bosses get better ranged DPS if they can't melee the target seems like a better one imo. this is the first boss i've really heard of this being a problem... and in fact, it's an extremely effective solution because if the boss switches to ranged DPS mode (spellcasting, shooting slayer arrows/bolts, etc), they'll be standing still... which means the melee can get in there to attack. seems like a much better solution to me, personally.

[shadowsaun]

And yet many of the Solo Raid feats highlighted by some forum members are not Favored Souls. A Full Party of Pale Masters would be similarly dangerous, as would a full party of Greataxers, for example. If I had a choice, I'd bing 10 Greataxers, and 2 healers, and watch things die in a hurry.

hell a full party of PM's well geared and well experience wouldn't even have to kite.

[BlackPantha2]

As usual Turbine has shown that they have no concept of logical deduction or development. The problem is not wings; the problem is the lack of tanking

AC? Not so much
Intimidate? Nerfed to near uselessness
HP? Not any more…

So, having removed the few advantages a melee has in dealing with boss agro how in Eberron is it a surprise that people are moving to classes that are more survivable?

Agreed!

For most scenarios, kiting with a fvs is not the best strategy. Hypothetically, if Turbine were to give us an encounter where the boss gives the melee tank unremoval hp damage that stacks until they die, then maybe we have to resort to kiting the boss or shield blocking with DoTs... Its not the way we want to do it... but we don't have very many options at this point.

[Eladrin]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

Edit:
See this post for changes made to this plan based on a player suggestion in this thread. We won't be increasing the cooldown of Leap of Faith (in fact, we're reducing the cooldown of Wind Dance to match it), but instead limiting the number of jumps that can be done in a row. You'll be able to jump five times, with one charge returning every 15 seconds.

[shadowsaun]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

With respect Eladrin...

this is lame. Lame and unnecessary. More proving ground to the skill of FAIL..

[Mister_Peace]

Any ability in this game that adds character mobility is fun. Wings is fun.

[voodoogroves]

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

The shorter cooldown is the one thing that makes it fun.

Seriously.

I'm not the only person who hates going from monk-fvs because the cooldowns are depressingly slow.


A better bet would to put in some sort of damper on it for boss fights, if that's what you're worried about. Baby and bathwater folks, babies and bathwater.

[shadowsaun]

just keep on bleeding us...the turnip will be dry soon

[Cyr]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

I find it amusing that you are targetting the ability that makes FvS really awesome at taking down trash mobs and soloing, but is not really the integral part of why they are awesome in groups and in boss fights.

[riexau]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

I suspect that won't be enough...

A better suggestion would be to not have a CD at all, but everytime you use leap you become exhausted for 5 seconds afterwards, reducing movement by 20%, stacking.

[gloopygloop]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

You can increase the cooldown to 5 seconds and still end up with a significantly reduced ability to flee from bosses on FvS. Increasing the cooldown to 9 seconds means that you get only 2 or occasionally 3 leaps per Blade Barrier. It's still a useful ability, but it's a heck of a lot less useful.

Please consider changing it from a 3 second cooldown to a 5 second cooldown instead of changing it to a 9 second cooldown.

The spell point cost is still essentially irrelevant at 10 SP, just like it was at 5 SP.

[Voldomar]

a simple solution that someone mentioned already would be to increase the SP cost. it sounds like the original intention was to give FvS a boost now and then, the DV DOT came later, and theyre only now seeing how well the two synergise to make FvS OMGBBQIWIN buttons.

No.
Wings+blade barrier was broken from day one and dots didn't even exist. Let's face it: wings are fun but op.
Just disable Leap of faith when chained or harried and see how it goes before taking further steps

[Riksha]

umm....

why nerf NERF NERF....gezze just give the bosses teleport ability...problem solved.

come on...does a dieing game need more nerfs?

agreed

[Rizzyn]

You can increase the cooldown to 5 seconds and still end up with a significantly reduced ability to flee from bosses on FvS. Increasing the cooldown to 9 seconds means that you get only 2 or occasionally 3 leaps per Blade Barrier. It's still a useful ability, but it's a heck of a lot less useful.

Please consider changing it from a 3 second cooldown to a 5 second cooldown instead of changing it to a 9 second cooldown.

The spell point cost is still essentially irrelevant at 10 SP, just like it was at 5 SP.

Is this a Wings issue or a Kiting issue? Someone with max Striders has never had a problem keeping up with my Favored Soul. If Kiting is not a legitimate strategy, shouldn't every form be limited? Aren't there speed burst lines of enhancements and Longstrider type spells that make kiting for the ground-based just as much of an issue?

I'm still not clear how Leap of Faith is an "uber" advantage. I know Bowbarians that consistently tear things down on their own or in small parties, I'm certain they're kiting.

[dogpig11]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

i'll quit if this goes through. I am only making characters with exceptional mobility.

[Nick_RC]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

I had a feeling changing the cooldown was what would happen. Having played both air savant and fvs I can tell you even the 6 second cooldown on wind savant means you cannot rely on it as an ability as 6 seconds is a long time in the thick of things. 9 seconds can be an eternity when the combat is thick and fast. Is this what you are intending? sort of a panic button but not a reliable strategy?

N

[shadowsaun]

Is this a Wings issue or a Kiting issue? Someone with max Striders has never had a problem keeping up with my Favored Soul. If Kiting is not a legitimate strategy, shouldn't every form be limited? Aren't there speed burst lines of enhancements and Longstrider type spells that make kiting for the ground-based just as much of an issue?

I'm still not clear how Leap of Faith is an "uber" advantage. I know Bowbarians that consistently tear things down on their own or in small parties, I'm certain they're kiting.

The REAL issue is the case of developers taking the easy way out. Instead of taking a systematical, through evaluation of the concern at hand, someone just said...

"Oh just Nerf the main kiting class's! That will work and we wont have to do much! Then we can get back to our real purpose, counting the MONEY!"