Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[budalic]

ofvs are by no means overpowered compared to casters and can't melee like the melee classes

You put points into Delusion skill recently?

[Bufo_Alvarius]

Emphasis mine. 1) Rogues are melee DPS and 2)They are quite good at it. They get discriminated by idiotic party leaders, and they are actualy doing you a favor... posting an 'I'm an idiot and you shouldn't party with me' sign over their heads.

Unless you're one of those S&B rogues with 150 HP and khorots gear (true story... guildy saw one in HoX). In which case you shouldn't complain about discriminating.

But yes, FvS is uber class... the problem is that LoF is a Toy ability. If they were nerfing FvS in damage/durability/whatever department there would be less outrage. But devs are taking away a Favourite Toy (TM), so a lot of people are gonna get outraged.

My rogue is a 40 str 3rd life horc... Rogue discrimination happens more than you think and will only get worse after this patch. But i guess since i didnt "buy" the class i cant complain, going by some of the logic in this thread.

[Jeromio]

I must say that I really don't like this proposed change.

I've been playing this game for 5+ years now and my FVS is by far my favorite character of all classes I've played. The wings, as they work now, is one of the things that makes it fun... zipping around in explorer areas and the city. I can also keep up with the zergers, to keep them alive.

Better to chain kiters running away from the bosses than to punish the whole FVS population.

Sad panda...

[morticianjohn]

Take my dots take my melee power take my DC or SP but don't take away my ability to spam wings.

[fullpozzy]

Can I have my money back,plz? FVS losing wings spam, what next barbs loose the tireless rage?

[Faent]

How about you dev's indicate precisely the kind of FvS behavior they want to stop? Is it DoT and kite endlessly? Is it BB and kite endlessly? Is it BB and wing-kite at all? Is it solo raid-content with a load of mana pots? What is it? Then maybe we could help you folks come up with a solution to prevent that type of behavior without you turning wing use into something you have to save for a panic-button getaway.

[Glyph420]

i just finished reading this post and i found in it alot of smart comments but i thought i would put in my 2 cents.. favoured souls are just that favoured since the only way to get the class is to buy it thru the store or to run alot of favour to get it.. to deminish the class is absolutely rediculous. even VIP's do not get it for free.
the class was recently upgraded with its prestige class.. the angel of vengeance which has made the class alot more offencively minded but now the higher end players have come up with a way to take advantage and for that the developers want to deminish one of the most iconic part of the class..
i have never played a favoured soul but i have had alot of fun trying to keep up with them and working harder that ever to show that my melee character can compete.. i find it silly that the developers have decided that after introducing a large increase to the favoured souls agression and damage output, that they wish to demish the class with a reduction of the wings. i have seen that many others find this rediculous and that the developers realy need to listen to this one as it will hurt the bussiness to do this as many players will not take this..
this week i helped a friend to get 2500 favour so that they could create a favoured soul... why as my friend wants to be a healer to help others in her guild, and the wings... well she is a female player after all and the wings are a feature that she is very much looking forward to.

if anything find a better way to resolve this even if it means reducing the damage output of the class.

[budalic]

My rogue is a 40 str 3rd life horc... Rogue discrimination happens more than you think and will only get worse after this patch. But i guess since i didnt "buy" the class i cant complain, going by some of the logic in this thread.

See the point about idiotic leaders. They are widespread, sure, but they are doing you a favor. I once heard guild leader say 'Rogues are useless against boss with 50% fortification' <- really shining game knowledge here. I wonder does he believe that Maul is best weapon in game.

Also, regarding my point about Favored Toys (TM):

Take my dots take my melee power take my DC or SP but don't take away my ability to spam wings.

I'm not condemning that, though. You play game to have fun. LoF is one of best toys in game, so people are really hurt by possible nerf. Also, as always on forums, a lot of overreacting is done.

[JuBzzz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFiLN...tailpage#t=89s


How about just disable it in raids?
Please, don't kill my coal chamber farm

[Samadhi]

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, nerf fatigue has set in. I am seriously done spending time re-doing builds to adjust to nerfs, over-nerfs, and yet new nerfs to balance out other over-nerfs. Rather than enjoying playing a game I can feel that I know, I feel like it's becoming an exercise in throwing time and money away just to try to evade the nerf axe. To anyone who's listening, this isn't fun.

Wow is this true; thank you for putting it succinctly.

There is no reason the entire game should change every update. While there will always come times to adjust things, there should also be some consistency. I have been trying to put my finger on it and never really did until now. The game no longer even feels like the game I used to play; and even with a job that allows lots of time to surf the internets, I still can't keep up with all the changes over the past year.

Stop tinkering with old stuff unless it is vitally necessary. Period. End of story. Let us just enjoy the game.

[Crann]

I am not sure if this was brought up, only had time to read about 3/4 of this thread.

Wings are not the issue....although they should not work while chained.

Dots are not the issue.....although they can put out alot of dps....too much dps.

It is the ability to use both of these indefinetly through unlimitted pot usuage that is the issue.

Put cool down's on Mneumonic Pot's, and see how long a FvS can DP/BB kite any Epic raid boss.

[Yalina]

Of course people overreacting, cause suddenly out of the hidden they decided to nerf something that lot of people love.... very soon. When and how many times you read that any Dev wrote "the lag hell in raids will be nerfed... very soon"??!! Instead of fixing non-existed issues, they REALLY should work on problems people mention all the time, somehow they have time to nerf wings, but no time to fix laaaag?? Or the other one million problems? Yes, I'm overreacting, but you can see my point. Don't fix things if they are not broken - especially if you have a LOT of work to do!!

[Ladas]

Please Ignore these Cut and Copys, from the Lord of Blades discussion thread. I just wanted to make sure I was heard, by the devs.




I think we should all take a review of the timeline in which these Wing issues have come from. I for one dont see a problem with wings in the way of play, other than the occation safespots(fix them). In my opinion the Damage over time spells are what have caused so much imbalance. Before DoTs were introduced, nearly no one would dream up a Solo ToD, or Epic DQs. They have been the drastic game changer, in the way of balance.... far more than wings. People have been using Blade Barrier( run jump cast) kiting since far far before Dungeon alert, and wings... It has even been used to carry lesser parties thru quests since it was introduced. If its wings and BB that are your concern, maybe tuning down the cast time was a poor choice. I personally always found that to be the restricter.

I am of the opinion that these Damage over time, no save, triple stacking spells are the real issue at hand thou!



Im aware they were done(Solo ToD and eQD2)(before the DoT additions), but it was a much more resource intensive, and skill based. I will go out on a limb and say it was done by 5-10 players, vs the 50+ that have completed such feats now. Hell even i did it on my fvs when movement debuffs were still active, but it cost me 143 majors. With DoTs i can do the same DQ now, with 0 pots, and mana to spare. Thats a vast difference.

I guess what im getting at is- DoTs let things get out of hand, by making things as easy as shield block + hotkey. This seems far more broken to me, than the Wings issue at hand.

I am 100% onboard with the idea of adding chains where needed, and having them remove/reduce wing-ability while chained. I am also with the concept of Air savants and monks recieving the same wings treatment, under the chains concept. I would rather not see the mechanic/timer alterred however.

And of course my main is a fvs, so call me baised

I am of the opinion that these Damage over time, no save, triple stacking spells are the real issue at hand thou!


~Silver

[mystafyi]

they REALLY should work on problems people mention all the time, somehow they have time to nerf wings, but no time to fix laaaag??

Sorry, but the devs are not capable of fixing lag. this requires cash to upgrade server farm and/or lease more bandwidth, that wont happen at this stage of the game(end of shelf life)

All the devs can do now is nerf things forcing the player base to eat hearts of wood to respec or TR. Either way turbine wins and the players lose.

[jandhaer]

i Had A Really, Really Long Comment Typed Up I Was About To Post, It Had A Very "i Hate When We Get Nerfed Because The Ai Is ****" Feel To It. I Deleted It Because It Doesn't Need To Be Said, We All Know That, It Started With Firewall, It Won't End Until There Is Some Balance Between Kiting And Challenge.

I Also Deleted It Because It Was Pointedly Insulting To The Devs And Once Someone Goes From Reasonable To Insulting A Long Reply Goes From "discussion Worthy" To: "tl;dr" (although I Still Doubt This Post Will Be Read By A Dev).


So I Just Deleted About An Hour Of Typing And Proof Reading, You're Welcome.

I'll Try An Approach That Isn't An "anger Rant".
================================================== =============


I Dm Pnp Games A Lot. In My Group Of Friends Power Gaming Is Always An Issue, However Power Gaming Is Not Something I Respond To With Iron Fisted Dm Fiat (i Have Been Known To Threaten A Character Sheet With Fire For meta Gaming But That Is Differant) . Gaming The System Is Still Done With In The Rules Of The System And I Won't Change Them To Suit My Needs, Or Else My Game Becomes Less An Adventure And More A: "enjoy My Rail Road Plot Line, Keep Builds With In A Strict Guideline And Try Not To Enjoy The Trip".

also: No Bathroom Breaks!

When I Am Confronted With Power Gaming, Solutions To The Problem Are More Often Than Not: Subtle, They Have To Be So As Not To Spoil The Illusion Of Choice. "destiny" Is Often A Personal Favorite Of Mine, That Being Something I Can Give A Player To Dissuade Someone From Following A Game-breaking Path. For Example Knowing One Of My Players Had A Planned Character Path That Would Lead To... Over Powered Game Breaking Shenanigans:

Dm: The Troll Lies Dead, Burn To Ash By Your Searing Arrows
Player: Cool, So I Have ...2 Spells Left Of That Level I Mortimer Examines The Bodies For Clues...
Dm: Actually That Last Spell You Cast Didn't Use A Spell Slot.
Player: Huh, What? Really?
Dm: That Last Casting Felt Different Than Your Other Spells, More Natural, Mortimer Feels Like It's Something He Has Always Known But Didn't Realize Until Now.
Player: Ah ...does Mort Know Exactly What Is Differant?
Dm: *rolls Dice* Nope.
Player: Interesting...

Long Story Short He Ended Up A Fire Savant, A Master Of Fire! Burning Champion Of The Plane Of Fire! That Is Very Different Than What He Has Planned And He Loved It. What's More I Made His Entire Secret History Up Off The Top Of My Head To Stop What He Had Planned.

i Told Him He Was Adopted And His Real Mother's Name Was jray Fallard A Fire Mage

other Times I Need To Stop Shenanigans Through Less Subtle But Still Reasonable Means. I Need A Party Walk Rather Than Fly? Blizzard. Teleportation Going To Be A Problem? This Dungeon Is Actually The Ruins Of An Ancient Dwarven Fortress, Warded Against Such.

Often I Solve Problems By Doing What My Antagonist Would Do. After All If The Antagonist Doesn't Want To Be Killed And Have His Castle Raided By Every Adventuring Party That Reads A Notice On The Tavern Wall He Is Going To Be Prepared. How Prepared Depends On How Hard I Want Him Or Her To Be And How They Respond To Threats Is Going To Be Tied That As Well. This Will Be Foreshadowed To My Group So That Most* Of The Time They Know Some Cheese Strategy Won't Work. Often That Foreshadowing Is Reflect By The Appearance Of Said Antagonist. So, Let Me Ask You: What Does The lord Of Blades Look Like?

Does He Look Like A b****?

as What Is Supposed To Be Something Far And Away Greater Than Your Average Monster I'd Say The Lord Of Blades Is Ready For Anything. Including A Hoppy Winged Annoyance Like A Favored Soul. There Are So Many Ways Bring Down Something Like That Changes To The Class Should Not Even Be An Issue, Heck The Best Looking One Would Be The Lord Simply Grabbing Anyone That Has It's Aggro And Is At Range And Hauling It In Close (a Spiked Chain Comes To Mind). One Raid Boss Already Does Something Similar To This (you Know The One), Just Replace The Animation For That With The Chains That Sulu Likes So Much And Make It Unaffected Freedom Of Movement. Problem Solved. It Fits Thematically, It Shouldn't Be A Nightmare To Script And It Doesn't Require ****ing Off Everyone Who Likes To Wing Around Town Just To Get The Potion Vendor Faster.

i've Survived Wars With Countless Enemies Only To Be Defeated By My Only Weakness, People With Wings Flying Away Shooting Me With Light Rays, How Did They Know?!

Don't Nerf A Class To Fix A Monster.

This Devs This !!!

[PNellesen]

I am of the opinion that these Damage over time, no save, triple stacking spells are the real issue at hand thou!

Speaking as a Cleric - please leave my favorite boss fight spell the h*ll alone. Thank you

(It's going to be tough enough keeping people going with the new HP and damage buffs bosses are getting, do we have to make it harder for non-melee clerics to contribute to DPS as well?)

[Symerith]

The wings are Extremely fun, I use them all the time, as an escape route. Removing them OR nerfing them equals to Removing FUN to the game. Right now, I'm bored of all my toons EXCEPT my FvS. Wings are awesome, don't remove them.

Here's the real issue.

1. How does a FvS Kite? Answer : By Getting aggro.

2. How does a FvS gets aggro? Answer : By using Divine Punishment (and maybe Capstone searing light ability).

3. What can be done to fix the kiting power of FvS? Answer : Do something about DP, like lowering the time between each tick, or higher cooldown, only allow DP to stack up to 2 times, or add a Save (And for those who don't want their clerics to be nerfed, maybe only do this to FvS?).

Removing wings or partially nerfing them will remove all the joy I feel when I log on my FvS. It's fun, it already has a cost (5 SP) and there's a cooldown.

Please do not nerf the wings, they are the reasons so many players want to play a FvS. I get so many Messages from new players that want to know what that cool ability is. Nerf the wings and less people will buy the class. Nerf the wings and I won't find DDO so much fun.

[SableShadow]

See the point about idiotic leaders. They are widespread, sure, but they are doing you a favor.

C'ept we're not talking about "zomg fail" raids; we're talking about the run of the mill, will-complete-quite-handily-raids.

These folks actually aren't idiots, they simply know they can complete with any ol' generic nub fighters/barbs and co. and have zero need to risk a purple icon or at most, one ... and we're likely to see more of that with the %bump on damage boost, not less. In other words, if they're doing me a favor, I would request that they please stop helping.

I've started rolling my own raids recently for eV6, and I haven't had to do that in years...and this is pre-U11.

I'm not ready to call "DoooOOoooom!" yet, but we'll see how it plays out on live. /shrug

[walkingwolfmike]

what i am really curious about at this point is, are the Devs even paying attention to our pleas and outcries, or are they simply set on their course of action and have written us off?

[Symerith]

Take my dots take my melee power take my DC or SP but don't take away my ability to spam wings.

This.