Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[Chette]

Hmm.... The changes that were offered and Eladrin accepted seem like a decent enough compromise...

They seem like a decent enough compromise because the initial proposed change was so horrendous. This seems like a typical tactic lately (remember the crafting changes with chattering rings? Made accepting large devil scales as components a lot easier).

In my mind, the simply fact of the matter is that wings are 99% about fun, and 1% about actual use in combat. My casting FvS used to be a casting cleric, and she did just fine without wings. Wings make it a bit easier to get out of a tricky situation, but if you have to rely on them to play your class, you're a pretty poor player. I TRed to FvS for the prestige enhancements and extra SP. Wings are just the icing on the cake.

Turbine, you're taking a lot of the fun out of this class for 99% of people, to spite the 1% of people who aren't smart enough to play their FvS without wing-kiting.

[voodoogroves]

What it means is that you're going to hate it on quests like coal chamber or getting to ADQ or Chains or any other quest where you like to zip around.

[zztophat]

I had a really, really long comment typed up I was about to post, it had a very "I hate when we get nerfed because the AI is ****" feel to it. I deleted it because it doesn't need to be said, we all know that, it started with firewall, it won't end until there is some balance between kiting and challenge.

I also deleted it because it was pointedly insulting to the devs and once someone goes from reasonable to insulting a long reply goes from "discussion worthy" to: "tl;dr" (although I still doubt this post will be read by a dev).


So I just deleted about an hour of typing and proof reading, you're welcome.

I'll try an approach that isn't an "anger rant".
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I DM PnP games a lot. In my group of friends power gaming is always an issue, however power gaming is not something I respond to with iron fisted DM fiat (I have been known to threaten a character sheet with fire for meta gaming but that is differant) . Gaming the system is still done with in the rules of the system and I won't change them to suit my needs, or else my game becomes less an adventure and more a: "enjoy my rail road plot line, keep builds with in a strict guideline and try not to enjoy the trip".

Also: no bathroom breaks!

When I am confronted with power gaming, solutions to the problem are more often than not: subtle, they have to be so as not to spoil the illusion of choice. "Destiny" is often a personal favorite of mine, that being something I can give a player to dissuade someone from following a game-breaking path. For example knowing one of my players had a planned character path that would lead to... over powered game breaking shenanigans:

DM: The troll lies dead, burn to ash by your searing arrows
Player: cool, so I have ...2 spells left of that level I Mortimer examines the bodies for clues...
DM: Actually that last spell you cast didn't use a spell slot.
Player: Huh, what? Really?
DM: That last casting felt different than your other spells, more natural, Mortimer feels like it's something he has always known but didn't realize until now.
Player: Ah ...does Mort know exactly what is differant?
DM: *rolls dice* nope.
Player: Interesting...

Long story short he ended up a fire savant, a master of fire! Burning champion of the plane of fire! That is very different than what he has planned and he loved it. What's more I made his entire secret history up off the top of my head to stop what he had planned.

I told him he was adopted and his real mother's name was Jray Fallard a Fire mage

Other times I need to stop shenanigans through less subtle but still reasonable means. I need a party walk rather than fly? Blizzard. Teleportation going to be a problem? This dungeon is actually the ruins of an ancient dwarven fortress, warded against such.

Often I solve problems by doing what my antagonist would do. After all if the antagonist doesn't want to be killed and have his castle raided by every adventuring party that reads a notice on the tavern wall he is going to be prepared. How prepared depends on how hard I want him or her to be and how they respond to threats is going to be tied that as well. This will be foreshadowed to my group so that most* of the time they know some cheese strategy won't work. Often that foreshadowing is reflect by the appearance of said antagonist. So, let me ask you: what does the Lord Of Blades look like?

Does he look like a B****?

As what is supposed to be something far and away greater than your average monster I'd say the lord of blades is ready for anything. Including a hoppy winged annoyance like a favored soul. There are so many ways bring down something like that changes to the class should not even be an issue, heck the best looking one would be the Lord simply grabbing anyone that has it's aggro and is at range and hauling it in close (a spiked chain comes to mind). One raid boss already does something similar to this (you know the one), just replace the animation for that with the chains that sulu likes so much and make it unaffected freedom of movement. Problem solved. It fits thematically, it shouldn't be a nightmare to script and it doesn't require ****ing off everyone who likes to wing around town just to get the potion vendor faster.

I've survived wars with countless enemies only to be defeated by my only weakness, people with wings flying away shooting me with light rays, how did they know?!

Don't nerf a class to fix a monster.

[Chette]

Don't nerf a class to fix a monster.

This was a fantastic post. I would love to PnP with you sometime my friend. +1

[Rizzyn]

This post is right on target . For all the reasons above LoF is OP and will be OP even with the so called nerf . The proposal of eladrin wont do anything to correct this isue . Imo LoF shoud be toned down more than Eldarin's proposal . A possible fix would be 1 min recharge time of the 5 charges given .

I see lot of exaggeration in this thread, I have a fvs and i have seen for myself that LoF is totally OP and spamable . Even a non good equipt character can dominate with bb and spam of LoF which a cleric cant do so easily . Its a win button .....

This presumes that Abundant Step and Leap of Faith are equal in utility for both Classes. They're not.

A Monk has a number of abilities, all of them keyed to their role in combat; Melee DPS. As has been stated, it allows them to Leap from Fight to Fight swiftly, which is what keeps then generating Ki. In their role, built properly, the expense of Ki will only be a limiting factor OUTSIDE of combat. Even then, no one will accuse a Monk of being slow, they're generally very zippy. A Monk is a strong and excellent class, but Abundant Step is not their only trick; they have access to instant-death punches, group buffs that can assist an entire balanced Raid, built in DR-bypass, and a high-end AC with an Intimi class skill that can allow them to be utilized as tanks in *Some* Raids.

No one accuses their high-end AC of marginalizing the Melee classes.

The main issue at hand, as I understand it, is kiting. Kiting will continue to happen, regardless of the change.

Leap of Faith allows a FvS to kite their Blade Barriers, but in my opinion, it isn't the best way to take advantage of the BB. For me, I kind of run a pattern through to try to hit mobs as often as possible. Yes, if its a narrow hallway or doorway, the wings are going to keep you at a distance, but that's not everywhere or every quest, but Wall of Fire and other spells will enjoy a similar advantage in such strategic locations. The idea posited is that it is somehow exploitative, and I've not seen nor read anything hear that bears that position out. A Favored Soul does not have a large array of additional abilities, and with the addition of the Angel of Vengeance prestige class, the implication is that a Favored Soul is for direct combat or combat support. Their debuff is based on being hit, their aura CAUSES aggro, and their archon fires at the last thing they did damage to by spell or by weapon. With their Medium Armor and inability to cause spell-DPS like an Arcane, but to Aggro like one, Leap of Faith is a real tool for them, whether for getting in healing range in a raid or escaping.

I am not dead-set against an alteration, but if the Nerf is to resolve a particular problem, as this one seems to be, it should actually resolve that problem. This Nerf will not change the fact that some quests, kiting is effect. Nor will it change the fact that in the LoB Raid in particular, Kiting is not only effective, it seems to be the ONLY generally successful strategy, whether in part, or completely.

If the DEVs feel this is necessary, there must be a reason. I just haven't seen that reason clearly explained. If is this is a reaction to a 7-Man Raid defeating Master Artificer on Epic with a Favored Soul heavy group, this is not representative of the whole. This is why this is going through the Testing process, to tweak the Raids/Quests not Classes that, previously, were not broken. The majority of people I spoke to that evening were running into wipe after wipe, on Normal, in parties with and without Favored Souls, I should say, more balanced parties than the 7-Man previously mentioned. Leap of Faith is not game-breaking, and as it stands now, the Nerd does not address the issue previously mentioned by Torc.

4. Alot of talk about Wing Clip & Favored Souls...You and us both. We're looking into that and yet.. we are concerned, like globally on a system wide scale concerned about leap kiting abilities being too uber, making the run and gun trivial and cutting melee players out of boss fights while their at it.

Even if you completely remove Favored Soul Leap of Faith, Kiting remains the best strategy for defeating the LOB Raid as it stands now. Kiting will continue to cut Melees out of the fight, if the party is built along those lines, rather than balanced for Tanking the Boss and Kiting the Trash. It has not been clearly explained how Leap of Faith/Wings will somehow change this fact, or that aggro is difficult to maintain in the face of DoT-ShieldBlock/DoT-Kiting casters. Favored Soul just happens to have an effective means of kiting, but so to does anyone with Haster, Striders, Longstrider, etc.

While this ability has been in its current form for some time, our new ventures into the raid space have reminded the systems team just how “uber” these feats are at kiting our bosses. We’ve become very concerned recently in the new post spell pass environment that this form of “boss kiting” over “boss tanking” will side line melee.

Which Raid Space? Most of the posters herein have stated that Kiting is generally not the winning strategy in most Raids. It happens to be a winning strategy in Lord of Blades. By recently, do you mean, just now, as in U11 with the Lord of Blades? Or Overall? Because most of the population is stating "Wing-kiting" is not the closer on most raid deals.

Leap of Faith’s original design did not account for continuously or methodically use to be so game deforming and we’re regretting its current parameters so expect them to change…. Very soon.

Please clarify how this is game deforming. Honestly, tell us how, or PM me and tell me how, because I don't see it.

P.S. I’m only nerfing you now so I can buff you later.

What is the suggested buff to balance this nerf?

[kitsune_ko]

I just had a thought today (It happens occasionally).

This nerf is currently tucked away in the Lamannia Discussion section of the forum; and it is already at 17 pages of posters very unhappy with this.

Better make sure your forum server in is A1 shape Turbine, because when the general playing population gets a hold of this information as opposed to just those testing Lamannia about this gem of a nerf you absolutely have your little hearts set on implementing, it is going to be generating long, long complaint topic(s) if this is anything to go by.

[Venny]

I've survived wars with countless enemies only to be defeated by my only weakness, people with wings flying away shooting me with light rays, how did they know?!

Don't nerf a class to fix a monster.

Fantasticly written. I don't know about FoM I had it on and still got chained and greased, and the LoB came after me hit me for an absurd number and death was the result, and I wasn't hitting him with anything.

Edit: I am certainly going to inform those other Fvs I know or Clerics that are hard pressed to unlock Fvs about this Nerf on Cannith's Server as we healer class are few and far between. They will be informed before it is Implemented and may join in this discussion. I think I will inform everyone about this so the can have a fair say.

[justagame]

While nerfing wings is disappointing enough, those calling for the divine DOT nerf instead (or in some cases in addition to) are nuts IMHO. It's the one offensive spell many divines have for boss fights. As many have shown in this and other threads, while it's effective, it's expensive, time-consuming, timing it between healing and other actions is actually tricky. You're not going to own a quest with this the way, say, a savant can stroll through most quests one-shotting stuff left and right with cheap sla's (then have their own DOT's for the boss).

Even the few math examples that assume the most optimal extremes involving rare loot, builds, stacking, debuffs etc. show it to pale in comparison to good melee dps, and it isn't able to be sustained due to cost. Besides, even those examples assume a combination of bonuses maximum stacking debuffs that they only happen once in a blue moon. Hardly game-breaking. Unless your definition of game-breaking is "divines have something effective to do in boss fights other than just heal."

What's worse, is a dot nerf would be yet another example of taking a sledgehammer to a narrow problem -- FVS wing-kiting of a boss in a raid. Do clerics deserve this nerf too? Really? And please, enough with the "give it a save to penalize melee FVS but not casters" nonsense. Since it's primarily a tool for bosses due to cost and time to stack, among other factors, and we're talking about endgame bosses, you might as well just cut the spell damage in half, because endgame bosses make their saves. The max wisdom cleric is going to be hurt just as much as the ESOS-wielding WF melee soul you're aiming at.

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, nerf fatigue has set in. I am seriously done spending time re-doing builds to adjust to nerfs, over-nerfs, and yet new nerfs to balance out other over-nerfs. Rather than enjoying playing a game I can feel that I know, I feel like it's becoming an exercise in throwing time and money away just to try to evade the nerf axe. To anyone who's listening, this isn't fun.

[Avidus]

While nerfing wings is disappointing enough, those calling for the divine DOT nerf instead (or in some cases in addition to) are nuts IMHO. It's the one offensive spell many divines have for boss fights. As many have shown in this and other threads, while it's effective, it's expensive, time-consuming, timing it between healing and other actions is actually tricky. You're not going to own a quest with this the way, say, a savant can stroll through most quests one-shotting stuff left and right with cheap sla's (then have their own DOT's for the boss).

Even the few math examples that assume the most optimal extremes involving rare loot, builds, stacking, debuffs etc. show it to pale in comparison to good melee dps, and it isn't able to be sustained due to cost. Besides, even those examples assume a combination of bonuses maximum stacking debuffs that they only happen once in a blue moon. Hardly game-breaking. Unless your definition of game-breaking is "divines have something effective to do in boss fights other than just heal."

What's worse, is a dot nerf would be yet another example of taking a sledgehammer to a narrow problem -- FVS wing-kiting of a boss in a raid. Do clerics deserve this nerf too? Really? And please, enough with the "give it a save to penalize melee FVS but not casters" nonsense. Since it's primarily a tool for bosses due to cost and time to stack, among other factors, and we're talking about endgame bosses, you might as well just cut the spell damage in half, because endgame bosses make their saves. The max wisdom cleric is going to be hurt just as much as the ESOS-wielding WF melee soul you're aiming at.

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, nerf fatigue has set in. I am seriously done spending time re-doing builds to adjust to nerfs, over-nerfs, and yet new nerfs to balance out other over-nerfs. Rather than enjoying playing a game I can feel that I know, I feel like it's becoming an exercise in throwing time and money away just to try to evade the nerf axe. To anyone who's listening, this isn't fun.

I agree with pretty much everything you said especially the very last sentence. Go back and read my earlier post. It looks like you and I are in the same boat, I just didn't put the phrase 'nerf-fatigue' on it, which I will add is totally fitting.

Also totally agree with Rizzyns' post (#328)

[Iwinbyrollup]

I'm very concerned about this change because I imagine they'll nerf Leap of Faith and the behavior they're trying to stop will persist. This concerns me because if they're trying to stop the behavior, they'll then nerf something else (DoTs) to make it even less effective.

So really, I see this as the beginning of a HUGE nerf to Favored Souls. I'd much rather see the source of the problem fixed (boss doesn't know what to do with ranged aggro) rather than the solution the players came up with (kiting).

[Dendrix]

The beauty of DDO is that multiple different strategies can accomplish the same thing. Players using their abilities and powers in innovative ways are applauded for their cleaverness. Using positioning, distance and pathing is the right way to play, use cornerd, doorway etc to gain advantage. DDO is the game where player skill and intelligence matters, the best combat of any MMO.

Taking away these abilities make it like the other boring MMO's.

I fear that we are moving to the EQ method, where there is 1 approved way to defeat a boss and anything else is deemed an exploit.

[voodoogroves]

I'm very concerned about this change because I imagine they'll nerf Leap of Faith and the behavior they're trying to stop will persist. This concerns me because if they're trying to stop the behavior, they'll then nerf something else (DoTs) to make it even less effective.

So really, I see this as the beginning of a HUGE nerf to Favored Souls. I'd much rather see the source of the problem fixed rather than the solution the players came up with.

It's not a fix "the players" came up with - it was a few and the devs simply selected one. I'm still a fan of having chains and similar block it, but that's me. There are other players who probably feel the same way.


I wouldn't paint it as a player-chosen change, in other words.

[grodon9999]

The more I read about this to more it looks like just another arbitrary nerf, a very poor decision.

The only change wings should see is it shouldn't get them out of binding chains, that's it.

[LeLoric]

The more I read about this to more it looks like just another arbitrary nerf, a very poor decision.

The only change wings should see is it shouldn't get them out of binding chains, that's it.

I just can't agree with this is it leads to Boss mobs having to spam chains which is detrimental to all class types. Talking about no fun being chained and not being able to move or swing and losing ac/saves etc is no fun. Imagine it being 50% of the fight.

It's not just the new raid that is using wings excessively. People have been soloing Tod/Vod/Edq and numerous other quests via LoF for a long time. Yes not every FS uses this but it is very overpowering when used this way. I don't necessarily think that their choice of fixes is the best but it's certainly better than forcing boss mobs to spam more chains.

[Kareena]

Don't nerf FVS; Buff the melee classes.

End game I rarely use my wings in raids; yes they do come in handy occasionally but by and far the usual thing I'm doing while in a raid is healing.

You really want to nerf a healing class when we need MORE not less of them? Seriously?

Honestly my wings are the funniest thing about my FVS; before lvl 17 I was one of the slowest in my groups- now I can keep up. This is a class I paid real cash for; and other have grinded favor/cash for. It SHOULD have a perk or two.

I'm really disappointed to hear Turbine is thinking of restricting the Wings. I might as well tr into a caster then- as will alot of fvs's I would think. And then we can all sit around forever waiting for a healer for our raids.

Or all go WF and have the casters repair us instead. lol

[Iwinbyrollup]

It's not a fix "the players" came up with - it was a few and the devs simply selected one. I'm still a fan of having chains and similar block it, but that's me. There are other players who probably feel the same way.


I wouldn't paint it as a player-chosen change, in other words.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. The "solution the players came up with" was to kite the raid bosses using DoTs. They're nerfing the solution rather than fixing the problem. Granted, any "fix" would be a nerf to the solution of some sort, but proxy nerfs by buffing up boss strategies are much better than straightforward nerfs that affect the ability everywhere. And buffing up boss strategies is much more favorable anyway.

I'll edit to make it more clear.

[Tarackian]

OK,

Let's look at this from the monster's side of the issue.

Please, please don't nerf us.

I mean really, can't you do something to the human side of the fight?? Why are we always the one getting nerfed? Don't we pay money to play this game (oh, maybe not)? Haven't we grinded enough to be entitled to some love? Chained in the same quest day after day fighting PUGs and multiple adventurers; occasionally overcoming the lack of spells, armor, greensteel and minions. So throw us a bone! Nerf the people who pay and leave our side of the equation alone. We really do enjoy chasing someone we cant catch. In a prior life we were probably all dogs (perhaps poodles?). Was that a car that just went by?

Anyway, Devs? Is this idea your BEST effort? How about it, Product Managers (producers)? You know, the ones really making the decisions. Are you listening to what your clients are saying about the game? This maybe a simple fix for you but it is a very bad choice for everyone who enjoys this game. Fix the problem not the symptom. You are not a drug company

/end of commentary

[Iwinbyrollup]

I just can't agree with this is it leads to Boss mobs having to spam chains which is detrimental to all class types. Talking about no fun being chained and not being able to move or swing and losing ac/saves etc is no fun. Imagine it being 50% of the fight.

I think the best method would be, if possible, have the boss throw chains when their target gets out of reach. Instead of just spamming it, have it be a "Hey, get back here, I'm not finished with you!" countermeasure.

The thing that bothers me the most about chains is that in the current endgame, chains hurt melee much more than they hurt casters. They slow down the movement speed of both, but it's not like they negatively affect spellcasting ability while they really slow attack speed. Honestly, I really think they should do a full pass on how chains work before even thinking about nerfing wings.

[Deamus]

I just can't agree with this is it leads to Boss mobs having to spam chains which is detrimental to all class types. Talking about no fun being chained and not being able to move or swing and losing ac/saves etc is no fun. Imagine it being 50% of the fight.

It's not just the new raid that is using wings excessively. People have been soloing Tod/Vod/Edq and numerous other quests via LoF for a long time. Yes not every FS uses this but it is very overpowering when used this way. I don't necessarily think that their choice of fixes is the best but it's certainly better than forcing boss mobs to spam more chains.

+1 to you . As to answer also to other posters like it is said above when LoF used that way is very overpowering that people can solo elite raids with ease . Not to mention the elite quests that i run in front with my fvs and kite everything around my BBs which i dont take any dmg and all other classes chase me so as to catch up as to score only a hit.

Also wings are not defining class ability ..... more sp than the cleric is defining class ability.

PS. Its OP you all know it. All the other things are excuses and exaggeration. Please lets have some balance in this game....

[Rizzyn]

I just can't agree with this is it leads to Boss mobs having to spam chains which is detrimental to all class types. Talking about no fun being chained and not being able to move or swing and losing ac/saves etc is no fun. Imagine it being 50% of the fight.

It's not just the new raid that is using wings excessively. People have been soloing Tod/Vod/Edq and numerous other quests via LoF for a long time. Yes not every FS uses this but it is very overpowering when used this way. I don't necessarily think that their choice of fixes is the best but it's certainly better than forcing boss mobs to spam more chains.

I think "Heavy Gravity" works better to avoid the other problems you mention.

As for the latter part; what people? How many Favored Souls can do that as compared to the entire population? Are they fully geared, average level 20s, or TR'd Monsters? I know an excellent Bard that can regularly solo Epic Quests, there's no suggestion that it is "Game Deforming", that is the language being used. If, as has been said, Kiting is the issue, changing LoF won't stop that from happening, nor will it stop well-geared, experienced players from finding ways to solor and/or regularly defeat quests. There ARE real exploits in Epic Quests and Quests in general, walls to stand on, fences that should be un-jumpable to jump over and avoid all or nearly-all of the built in challenge.

There are REAL problems that need to be addressed. This appears to be a swift reaction to the perception that it was a problem in a new Raid that is in the Testing cycle. I've yet to see any clear description, or logical progression of thought that makes clear that Leap of Faith nerfing resolves the overall effectiveness of a Kiting strategy in LoB or other Raids where it is used excessively.

It is not a question over whether or not it is a defining Class ability, of which, at this time, it is their only ability beside the spell points; it is a question of whether or not this change resolves the issue at hand. It doesn't. The "Game Deformity" comes in the shape of a few players adopting a Kiting or DoT-Kiting strategy, with or without Blade Barrier or Wings. It is that strategy that supposedly sidelines Melee-Tanks and DPS, Not the Wings.