Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[budalic]

Wow. so the dev team is going to nerf the thing that makes FVS so much fun by increasing the cooldown.

What a bunch of idiots.

why stop at nine seconds. Why not make it completely useless due to cooldown time like implosion.

Read entire thread before posting next time... they changed the idea in meanwhile.

Otherwise, I agree there is not much need to nerf Wings on a global level.

EDIT: Also, implosion isn't useless.

[voodoogroves]

DDO bosses need more cometfall. The gnoll conjurers on epic chains of flame ae more likely to wipe a party than most raid bosses.


Imagine Lailat with cometfall. People won't ever try that "ball method" again.

Divines won't be able to center mass heals on themselves and power trhough boss fights. And the kiting fvs will learn his lesson as soon as the boss casts the spell.

Completely agree with your basic point, though I'll say that on that particular fight one bit of lag could turn it into a wipe quickly - I want a challenge, but not auto-fail situations.

I wouldn't mind others tossing around the pain a bit though - and maybe not the boss, maybe some 2nds that spawn or simply environmental effects

[Deamus]

10 ki for a monk is alot when he's not meleeing, for a lvl 12 monk with 30 Ki, only 3 Abundant Steps are possible (moving faster in Stormreach, moving faster to a quest ...).
A lvl 20 Monk with 90 Ki can do 9 Abundant Steps.
So the monks who want to spam Abundant Step have to max their Ki first. They have to melee for a few seconds at least.

A lvl 17 Fvs has about 2000 spell points, the Leap of Faith costs 5 sp. That is 400 LoF when in Stormreach, much more if you count the sp regen (5 sp every 6 seconds). The cooldown being 3 sec at the moment, 400 LoF = 1200 seconds, in that time the FVS regens 5 * 1200 / 6 = 1000 sp for another 200 jumps, 600 seconds and regen 500 sp, 100 jumps, 300 seconds, 250 sp. I stop here, that gives a total of 700 Leaps of Faith in Stormreach in about 2100 seconds (35 minutes).

700 Leaps for the FVS when the Monk can only do 9-10 and then have to stop 30 seconds to meditate, go to a tavern to regen his Meditate counter ...

The Monk can use this ability when he's actually fighting, for it's intended purpose: moving fast from a monster to another (beating on Horoth, jumping back to kill trash, ...), jumping farther, etc. when the FVS can use it for a ridiculous cost in a spammable way. It is like a Sprint Boost for monks (very limited) and like a free SLA for FVS (almost free).

Yes LoF uses sp, but the cost is so low that it doesnt matter much. They can drink SP potions anyway, monks can't drink Ki potions (I want Ki pots!).

This post is right on target . For all the reasons above LoF is OP and will be OP even with the so called nerf . The proposal of eladrin wont do anything to correct this isue . Imo LoF shoud be toned down more than Eldarin's proposal . A possible fix would be 1 min recharge time of the 5 charges given .

I see lot of exaggeration in this thread, I have a fvs and i have seen for myself that LoF is totally OP and spamable . Even a non good equipt character can dominate with bb and spam of LoF which a cleric cant do so easily . Its a win button .....

[varzyl]

I don't know it this has already been said, but if the real problem making Fvs Wings OP is the BB+dot boss kiting, then why don't you do something like:

*after 5 Leap of Faith,aggro counter is reset*
*after 5 LoF, the kited boss automatically do chains on FvS, obviously changing chains to actually prevent LoF*

or such more precise way to "fix" the "OP" of kiters FvS .

Just don't NERF wings and FvS in such a huge way, in all circumstances: it's nice to have wings when you are in solo, or even in a public istance, and totally not OP.

ps: pnp Fvs can fly 60ft with good manovr all day long. lol.

[khatarsis]

This post is right on target . For all the reasons above LoF is OP and will be OP even with the so called nerf . The proposal of eladrin wont do anything to correct this isue . Imo LoF shoud be toned down more than Eldarin's proposal . A possible fix would be 1 min recharge time of the 5 charges given .

I see lot of exaggeration in this thread, I have a fvs and i have seen for myself that LoF is totally OP and spamable . Even a non good equipt character can dominate with bb and spam of LoF which a cleric cant do so easily . Its a win button .....

Well dae, lof won't win you a quest, no matter how much you leap around. Tell me how many raids have you seen where the fvs is kiting the boss while everyone sit and watch? How many quests have you seen that a fvs can solo that not a caster can do just as well?

Yes, it's an awesome solo ability, but not really a gamebreaker. The only thing this thing will do is nerf the fun out of the fvs.

[budalic]

ps: pnp Fvs can fly 60ft with good manovr all day long. lol.

I'm gonna shoot next person that says this.

PnP FvS has flavor ability that Arcane casters get 10 levels earlier (aka. fly spell), and it's rather lackluster in PnP. Please, don't bring PnP into this - it's not the same. In DDO, on the contrary Leap of Faith is class-defining ability; the ability that separates FvS from other classes.

tl,dr: How silly would it be of me to ask for 3rd level spell called Fly that gives any class it's cast upon wings, and has haste-like duration? Because that's what you are asking for everytime you bring pnp into discousion.

[pSINNa]

Remember how much fun it used to be playing a tempest 3 ranger? That attack speed was so much fun, that even knowing your dps was not 'absolute best' you still loved playing them (yes the dps was pretty **** good, but there was better around). (i have a pure 20fvs now with 2 previous lives of ranger, he just wasn't fun to play anymore).


Remember the fun 'hero' feel of slow motion trotting up to the raid boss on your intimitank and 'giving him the finger', as other players exclaimed 'he's not even being hit!' and all the healers smiled, and there was much rejoicing. (i have a pure 20bard now with a fighter past life, he just wasn't fun to play anymore).


Are we soon going to be remembering how much fun it was to play a FVS? (I spose i could TR my 3 x FVS past life toon into a sorc, i hear they're fun still, and they don't have to carry a party or raid on their back when they're not just running around having fun)


(ps. i know this isn't exactly 'constructive' as regards the discussion in progress, but i'm still shocked beyond belief that after this many years when wings were fine, they're under the gun all of a sudden, just shocked, really)

[Jiirix]

i'm still shocked beyond belief that after this many years when wings were fine, they're under the gun all of a sudden, just shocked, really)

You are not the only one.

[voodoogroves]

You are not the only one.

Because AoV and Divine Punishment came into the mix ...

[rimble]

This post is right on target . For all the reasons above LoF is OP and will be OP even with the so called nerf . The proposal of eladrin wont do anything to correct this isue . Imo LoF shoud be toned down more than Eldarin's proposal . A possible fix would be 1 min recharge time of the 5 charges given .

As a Monk, I'd really prefer the new mechanic as well. I'd love having it untied from my Ki, and regain a charge every 10 or 15 seconds? That's awesome.

[Jiirix]

Because AoV and Divine Punishment came into the mix ...

I'll quote a Guildy from our guildforum:

* Element A was introduces, everybody likes it, no-one complains, no problems at all
* Element B comes new into play
* The Combination of A + B is imba for the devs and/or some players
* The beloved Element A gets nerft > cry

It would be allways better not to nerf A but to make B fit into the game better.

[rimble]

It would be allways better not to nerf A but to make B fit into the game better.

Hindsight and all that...they do TRY, I firmly believe that...but you're not gonna get 'em all right.

[voodoogroves]

Here's the worry though ...

A, much loved, exists in the game. You can do some fun stuff with it, but it isn't game breaking.
B is introduced (lets say, the new preponderance of DOTs which keep firing while you run away and heck, even after you're dead)
C is introduced (a way to multiply the relatively simple damage of B - we'll call it the debuff)
D is introduced (a way to stand and take it for a bit better or avoid damage for everyone - we'll call it shield mastery - that is just as effective on a caster than a traditional tank)


This allows someone with all of these to essentially defeat some big encounters / bosses in ways the devs didn't intend.


I'm just sad the answer is "Oh dear gods! A is completely out of line!"


Even if you removed wings, you'd have the Barb1/FVS18/x1 splashes kite with haste boost ... you'd probably also have people walling and shield blocking folks in (maybe not some bosses, but it's doable) ... you could still have a set of 3-4 folks all with B, C and D who time the cycles of B and their own intimidate to switch aggro around.

What's next? Twelve Clonks with shield mastery and great healing amp all standing in each other's auras using non-AoV DP?

[Avidus]

Not that anything I type here is going to matter at all but...

If kiting is the issue does that mean arcane archer ability to run backwards will be put on a timer too?

Seriously though, the changes Eladrin spoke of will simply take the 'fun' out playing my Favored Soul.
Will I TR back into cleric? Probably not. I switched to Favored Soul to have fun playing a healer type. Even with Radiant Servant cleric just doesn't appeal to me. Wings were the reason I bought TP's and spent them on Favored Soul, now it was money wasted.

For me, this is just another nail in the coffin on things that I enjoy in DDO. Sooner or later I will just stop logging in. Will it be entirely because of the changes to my precious wings? No, it won't. The changes are piling up. Slowly enough that newer players aren't even aware of what it was like before the nerf. I have seen them all come and have stayed through them all. Each time it gets a little harder to enjoy the things I find 'fun'.

So yeah, let's add new stuff that makes old stuff need to get nerfed instead of adjusting the new stuff. After all they wanted to nerf wings and wing like abilities for a while now, this just give them the excuse.

Am I being overly negative? Some will say that I am, but I don't think so. Watching the changes to the game over the years is like watching a family member just get sicker, you stay because you love them, but you know it's only a matter of time...

tl;dr
I rambled a bit, and still don't want any changed to my wings, I'd rather be chained where appropriate or have DP tied to a casting stat with a save. Post #232 had some good suggestions....

[Tsani]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

So... am I reading this wrong or is this set up so you never run out of charges?

Burn 1 - 4 Left - 15 second left on recharge of Burn 1
Wait 3 seconds
Burn 2 - 3 left - 12 seconds left on recharge of Burn 1
Wait 3 seconds
Burn 3 - 2 left - 9 seconds left on recharge of Burn 1
Wait 3 seconds
Burn 4 - 1 left - 6 seconds left on recharge of Burn 1
Wait 3 seconds
Burn 5 - 0 left - 3 seconds left on recharge of Burn 1
Wait 3 seconds - Burn 1 is recharged
Burn 1 - 0 left - 3 seconds left on Burn 2
...
Rinse and repeat.

So this change would effectively put a 3 second cool-down on wings and do nothing else?

Tsani

[smatt]

Hmm.... The changes that were offered and Eladrin accepted seem like a decent enough compromise...

[Angelus_dead]

So... am I reading this wrong or is this set up so you never run out of charges?

You seem to think that all 5 charges recover in parallel, when naturally they work serially.

[dkyle]

So... am I reading this wrong or is this set up so you never run out of charges?

Individual charges don't come back 15 seconds after they are used. Nothing in DDO works like that.

A recharge is simpler than that: every 15 seconds, you get one charge back. That's it. So, your timeline looks like this:

Burn - 4 Left - 15 second left on recharge
Wait 3 seconds
Burn - 3 left - 12 seconds left on recharge
Wait 3 seconds
Burn - 2 left - 9 seconds left on recharge
Wait 3 seconds
Burn - 1 left - 6 seconds left on recharge
Wait 3 seconds
Burn - 0 left - 3 seconds left on recharge
Wait 3 seconds - Get one charge back
Burn - 0 left - 15 seconds left on recharge
Wait 15 seconds - Get one charge back
Burn - 0 left - 15 seconds left on recharge
Wait 15 seconds - Get one charge back
...
Rinse and repeat.

Basically, in the long run, the cooldown is 15 seconds. But if you haven't used it in a while, you can use a bunch in a quick burst. In normal questing, this is likely to not be a big change. You'll probably have to stop to fight by the time you've used all 5 charges, and get some back before moving on. But for continuous kiting, after the first 15 seconds, you'll be stuck waiting on the 15 second cooldown.

I hope using it in town will bypass this mechanic; just have it not use charges in public areas.

[Chette]

So... am I reading this wrong or is this set up so you never run out of charges?

I think you're reading it wrong. It would be more like

t0: wing - 4 charges - recharge timer begins
t3: wing - 3 charges
t6: wing - 2 charges
t9: wing - 1 charges
t12: wing - 0 charge
t15: 1 charge restored
t30: 1 charge restored
t45: 1 charge restored

etc

i.e. it takes 15 seconds to restore 1 charge, not each charge on a separate 15 second timer. That's how it works with recharging of turns on a cleric.

[rimble]

You seem to think that all 5 charges recover in parallel, when naturally they work serially.

Doesn't using a charge restart that recharge timer too? I thought Smite Evil recharges used to work that way and it annoyed me...did that change?