Melee on a FvS or Cleric, why?

[Iphigen]

I totally don't understand the obsession with having to melee on a cleric or a FvS. What's the benefit? What kind of melee dps are we talking about under the most optimal circumstances? And how much casting/healing ability do you have to sacrifice? In most epics i don't have any trouble getting ahead in kill counts with my Evoker FvS (fully capable to heal raids AND dps on raid bosses + crown) compared to a so called DPS FvS (even if they have a ESoS and even if i am the only healer).

So what's the deal here?

[mute_mayhem]

Why not?

Even if a divine is only contributing 1/2 the dps of a true melee....at least they're doing something besides healing. An evoker FvS is a little different because you can just insta-kill stuff, how does that work out for you on raid bosses?

And yes, I know you'll reply with: Divine punishment ftw!

Well guess what, my "melee" FvS does just as much with Divine punishment as my evoker FvS...

[-Zephyr-]

Some people enjoy playing the game in other ways you do.

Casters are currently unmatched trash killers thanks to insta-kill, everyone is aware of that. But once you get to an orange named or red named, your DPS as evoker is not any better than the melee divine anymore :
- either you kite through blade barriers, and by doing so prevent the rest of the party to do damage : less damage overall, and you'll be asked kindly do go solo and stop being selfish in groups
- or you stand there using Divine Punishment, while the melee divine is using both Divine Punishment and his sword.

Oh, and did I mention the word "FUN" ?

[Vordax]

I totally don't understand the obsession with having to melee on a cleric or a FvS. What's the benefit? What kind of melee dps are we talking about under the most optimal circumstances? And how much casting/healing ability do you have to sacrifice? In most epics i don't have any trouble getting ahead in kill counts with my Evoker FvS (fully capable to heal raids AND dps on raid bosses + crown) compared to a so called DPS FvS (even if they have a ESoS and even if i am the only healer).

So what's the deal here?

Because its fun?

Vordax

[The_Brave2]

From what iv seen both an evoker and a Mele FVS are contributing to the group, just in different ways, you may be able to throw a implosion every once in a while, along with a destruct/slay living, but the Mele FVS is shooting off constant DPS which if he is optimally geared will be about 70% of a equally geared mele DPS. While healing the party at the same time. it really just comes down to play style.

Not to mention boss fights, where a mele FVS truly shines, healing the party though quick cures, dropping divine punishment along with mele DPS, will FAR surpass any other DPS in the party.

I havent mentioned cleric because... its a cleric.

[gavijal]

You can do some dps and save your sp for healing

[dkyle]

Any Divine can heal, and put out spell-based DPS (Divine Punishment, basically), with a few feats. The choice is generally DC-based casting vs. melee DPS. For DC-based casting, you want as much WIS as possible. For Melee, you want as much STR as possible. Since you can't max both WIS and STR, a choice has to be made. And a balanced approach is only likely to end up with a character that sucks at doing both things.

For a melee Cleric, the only loss to healing/DPS spells from dumping WIS is the minor loss of SPs (assuming just enough to cast level 9 spells). The actual potency of the spells is unaffected.

For a melee FvS, loss of WIS is even less detrimental, as their SP is based on CHA, anyway.

Healing/spell DPS do require feats, but it's not hard to fit in Quicken and some reasonable subset of Maximize/Empower/Empower Healing, alongside basic melee DPS feats: PA, Imp. Crit. If you go THF, the THF-line isn't that important, and can be skipped. TWF is tricky, though, as the full TWF is basically mandatory.

Now, there do exist melee FvS and Clerics that entirely dedicate themselves to melee, and don't take the metamagics needed for effective healing and spell DPS. I would question that choice. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I see it as trading the huge amount of utility from healing and spell DPS for a slight increase in melee DPS. But not all (or even most, IMHO) melee Divines do this.

[Iwinbyrollup]

Because its fun?

This.

My Sorcerer was a offensive casting cleric last life; my FvS was a melee cleric last life and is a melee FvS this life. For me, the difference ultimately comes down to really having fun with the variety. Playing one is different from the other, and playing the melee FvS is different still from playing, say, my Paladin (who is, unsurprisingly, also a melee).

My melee FvS's DPS doesn't come close to that of my paladin's when I'm just meleeing (a bit different with groups of mobs and BB or with DP on single targets), but it's ultimately not just about DPS. It's about having something to do well that isn't *just* healing. And it's fun in a different way from the paladin because it's a) more self-sufficient, b) more desirable in groups, c) able to take on multiple roles (including solo raid healer in many cases), and d) still able to melee.

[wax_on_wax_off]

To answer your question, a melee specced divine can, under ideal conditions, do about 80% of the DPS of a melee class (according to older maths).

For me playing a melee FvS melee DPS was a side affect of the more interesting past time of hate tanking. When it gets down to it, twitch two handed fighting while solo healing and holding the aggro of a raid boss is heaps fun

Effective too.

[Raoull]

I find one advantage of being a melee cleric is also that my Torc/ConOpp processes more. When I'm playing the "stay in the back and heal" cleric, I don't have nearly as much mana as when I run around fighting trash up close and personal. I also get more mileage out of my auras/bursts that way.

But the most important advantage is... its fun.

I like casters too, mind you. But I figure I'll play a caster Arcane and a melee Divine. A caster Divine is a perfectly fine choice, except I've only got time for so many toons.

[Dandonk]

1) Because it's fun.

2) Because if you're a healbot, you're not contributing as much as you can to the party.

3) Because your torc/Conc Opp is nice.

4) Because it's even more fun to outkill* dedicated melees and watch them go all (word deleted due to community rules).


*: Yes, I know kill score doesn't really mean much. It doesn't stop some people from being very angry if my wf fvs outkill their barbs, though. So yes, it's fun.

[Chai]

Divine melee DPS + spell DPS is pretty darn good. And this can all still be had without sacrifice to being able to heal raids and groups.

Gygaxian divine classes can fight. Its one of the things that sets D&D apart from other MMOs and fantasy realms where their priests are running around in cloth armor babysitting the melee classes so they dont die.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Benefits of the divines being in the middle of the fight:
- Radiant servant aura provides some handy background HP regeneration
- Radiant servant burst is very powerful & doesnt require SP.. doesnt matter if you end up overhealing thanks to metas either, since the cost for it (1 turn) is the same regardless.
- easier for the divine to use mass healing, just cast it & it'll default to targeting on self, catching other party members in the AoE - ok, a little different fighting undead & the RS burst need to have yourself selected but its not that hard to just hit F1 then your healing hotkey.
- FvS with the PrE gives a handy debuff that can increase the damage from holy/good/light damage & reduces fortification, thus potentially boosting dps for the whole party with crits hitting more often etc.. plus the SR debuff helps other casters that might be at a distance to let their own spells stick like mass holds etc.
- implosion is limited AoE & centered on the caster

With all those benefits, may as well be hitting things too while you're there & contributing to DPS, as with a halfway decent group you really shouldnt be taking so much damage that constant healing is required, outside of a few intense situations such as raids & scripted ambushes in certain quests. Ok, their dps isnt on the level of a raging barbarian or most other "proper" melees especially at cap, but are no slouches either & at low levels they're a lot closer.

The only real problem with melee divines are the less epxerienced players who have seen it done & just jump in, figure they can pull it off, but then end up failing when they discover it needs a lot more attention than they realised & cant handle the multitasking, usually healing others & failing to heal themselves as they get hit too, or concentrating on themselves as they get hit & then neglecting other party members. Once you've gotten over that hurdle though, they're awesome fun to play & very effective

[rjbutchko]

My cleric is on her second life. First life she stood around with her aura on and tossed an occasional heal. BORING! Now she has Conc. Opp. , a Torc and viable HP and I love to have her jump into a middle of a pack of mobs and do less than a quarter of the melee damage that her party mates do just to regain SP for implosions. So as a melee cleric she actually is able to do more offensive casting than she otherwise would.

[Dendrix]

It's fun hitting things in the face with big hunks of sharp metal.

[pseudomasochist]

Aside from play style preference, it's a lot easier to get a cleric or favored soul through the low levels swinging a weapon than with spells. Until Blade Barrier, they have few to none SP-efficient spells to kill things with so unless a cleric or fvs has regular party mates around to do the killing, melee is the way to go for levels 1 to 11/12. Melee can work well at higher levels with the right builds but I pefer playing as a caster.

[FrozenNova]

Your typical wf melee fvs or 18/2 battlecleric during a bossfight will easily outdamage all other melees while keeping the group up.

Meanwhile your average non-tr'd casting divine in epics is going to achieve little over nothing at all without a huge amount of debuffs and drains.

If you're implying melee is suboptimal - I respectfully disagree.

[Iphigen]

Aside from play style preference, it's a lot easier to get a cleric or favored soul through the low levels swinging a weapon than with spells. Until Blade Barrier, they have few to none SP-efficient spells to kill things with so unless a cleric or fvs has regular party mates around to do the killing, melee is the way to go for levels 1 to 11/12. Melee can work well at higher levels with the right builds but I pefer playing as a caster.

Totally agree here. Once you get BBs all quests are trivial. :-)

[Talon_Oakenleaf]

From what iv seen both an evoker and a Mele FVS are contributing to the group, just in different ways, you may be able to throw a implosion every once in a while, along with a destruct/slay living, but the Mele FVS is shooting off constant DPS which if he is optimally geared will be about 70% of a equally geared mele DPS. While healing the party at the same time. it really just comes down to play style.

Not to mention boss fights, where a mele FVS truly shines, healing the party though quick cures, dropping divine punishment along with mele DPS, will FAR surpass any other DPS in the party.

I havent mentioned cleric because... its a cleric.

No love for clerics

I recently TR'd my very boring level 20 cc/healer and I mean boring. I hated sitting back and throwing heals and the odd spell or divine punishment and not doing much more than that. So I chose to try an Arcane archer/ cleric build to see if sitting back and healing and pew pewing things would be cool. Well its level 8 now and I am having a blast and i do not get the AA until level 9 because of the BAB. So to answer the OP's question, the deal is for me, playing a hireling sorry healbot was not fun and really a waste of a slot for a party so I love the idea of melee on the healing class.

[Sarisa]

Aside from some raid fights and a few other epic bosses (like the Hezrou in eDeeps or Garos in Snitch), I melee on my Cleric. Many reasons were stated, but this is what I feel:

• The RS Aura and Bursts go a long way in saving SP.
• Centring mass heals on myself is a good way of keeping everyone alive.
• By keeping my target lock on the boss, it makes it easy to use Divine Punishment along with mass heals/cures, and any other offensive spell I may want to cast.
• Against trash, I can contribute a little bit of damage with my Triple Positive, Epic Souleater, Dreamspitter, or Rahl's Might.
• Against bosses, I can assist the melees by using debuffers. I carry a Rahl's Might (Improved Destruction), Strength Sapper, Cursespewing of Destruction. I'd rather be the one doing the debuffing, since I have lower natural damage than true melees. They can then concentrate on beating down with their strongest weapons.
• Melee'ing saves SP in tight areas like eADQ1 or eChains.
• Being in the melee scrum, especially in Amrath, procs my Torc and Concordant Opposition way more than standing back.

That said, I still use Energy Drain, Destruction, Implosion, and cast heal spells between melee swings.