Melee on a FvS or Cleric, why?

[Iphigen]

I didn't say that they had a save. I said that was the problem. I said that they NEED a save.

I am not sure if this is needed, at least imho not for balancing the different FvS prestige classes. Regarding the melee FvS there are some antagonisms we did not account for but might have some impact:

- switching from weapon to scrolls and back is very inconvenient.
- casting times of the most SP-efficient heals do matter.
- it might be hard to fit the perfect healing/casting gear and melee gear at the same time on one toon.
(- MyDDO shows that in most cases there is a difference in SP. (splashing, gear and overfocus on melee dps))

And for a boss dps comparison we did not include Archon and the free Searing Light dps for the Evoker.

I am convinced that the melee FvS can either do more boss dps or heal just as good as an Evoker. But I am not sure that the melee FvS can do both at the same time. Add on the evoker side that they can (someone said something about DC 40 cometfall) do some mediocre/decent short term CC and are good at killing hords of trash (decent BB DC). This is somewhat balanced.

Maybe someone smarter than me can calculate/estimate a solid DPS comparison that includes the above detrimental effects.

[DeafeningWhisper]

This is the most rediculous thing i've read in a long while, LAUGHABLE if it wasn't just so..so.. so wrong. You say you know people who just wont take FvS anymore period... WOW is all I can say about that. They dont accept what is arguably the best class in the entire game. FvS characters have time and again pulled off what was thought to be impossible, just check out the achievements forums if ya dont believe me. Your join date is 2011 so ya ... there is that -.-

Love how you chopped my comment to make it sound nothing like what I meant, really, very lovely. It was a couple of capped toons and 1 TR that told me (in more or less those exact words) "I don't even take FvS anymore, you never know what kind of **** they play". I don't see how my join date invalidates my opinion, which if you read the whole thing (not just the start of my comment and the end) is that bad players are hurting the image of FvS which are quite able to heal and dps, heck today I had a group "waitting for a healer" when we already had a pure FvS in the party. I agree FvS are good healers and their prestige allows them to deal better dps then a Cleric but at least on Khyber some FvS simply don't heal anyone other then themselves. They are not the norm, but you usually remember the bad runs more then the good ones, I have made many quests with FvS with no problems but one of the few I remember is the one where the Board and Sword FvS healed no one but himself and I had to heal the party on my Warchanter.

I don't know how things are on other servers but on Khyber until around lvl 16 or so not everyone in PUGs knows that a FvS is a "Healer class", which is wrong on so many levels...

[Jeromio]

I totally don't understand the obsession with having to melee on a cleric or a FvS. What's the benefit? What kind of melee dps are we talking about under the most optimal circumstances? And how much casting/healing ability do you have to sacrifice? In most epics i don't have any trouble getting ahead in kill counts with my Evoker FvS (fully capable to heal raids AND dps on raid bosses + crown) compared to a so called DPS FvS (even if they have a ESoS and even if i am the only healer).

So what's the deal here?

I believe that one of the greatest benefits is that melee is more fun... at least for some people!

I cannot speak for battle clerics, only FVS, which I've got three of; a melee, an evoker and a mixed type.

There's no difference in healing capabilities; it totally depends on your build and what you focus on. It might be that a melee FVS tends to be a better healer since they usually only take buffs and curative spells while the evoker has a harder time fitting in everything in their spell list (in some content, mass heal is just not enough, but you also need 2-3 mass cures).

Against trash mobs, the evoker FVS will usually benefit over the melee (especially when they can use BB). The big difference is bosses and high HP single targets where the melee shines with an additional damage output of 60-70% of what a top notch melee toon can manage; about 250-300 extra melee DPS (added on top of Divine Punishment, half damage BB, guards and Archon light beam while casting heals now and then).

At least for me, it's much more fun to use the combined powers of melee, some offensive casting and heals than just zip around kiting through blade barriers most of the time.

[OliviaCrowley]

I haven't played in a good while, how reasonable would it be now to make a non-WF THF melee/healing FVS? A friend suggested I TR my human FVS at 20 and go with khopeshes, but I'd rather not play another TWF character.

[Calebro]

I haven't played in a good while, how reasonable would it be now to make a non-WF THF melee/healing FVS? A friend suggested I TR my human FVS at 20 and go with khopeshes, but I'd rather not play another TWF character.

THF fleshy Soul?
Half Orc would be the way to go. But you'd need to spend a feat on proficiency unless you wanted to deal with the -4 to hit.

[Gratch]

I haven't played in a good while, how reasonable would it be now to make a non-WF THF melee/healing FVS? A friend suggested I TR my human FVS at 20 and go with khopeshes, but I'd rather not play another TWF character.

What is wrong with Greatsword WF FVS? Given they're the only FVS that get FVS-focussed enhancements for a THF type weapon...tmk.

Though you'll have to let the Lord of Blades eat as many fleshies as he requires when running the new Lord of Blades raid. FUN.

[OliviaCrowley]

What is wrong with Greatsword WF FVS? Given they're the only FVS that get FVS-focussed enhancements for a THF type weapon...tmk.

Though you'll have to let the Lord of Blades eat as many fleshies as he requires when running the new Lord of Blades raid. FUN.

Because I don't want this character to be a warforged. There's nothing wrong with them, I like WF, I just don't want this character as one. I like her as a human is all.

[voodoogroves]

Quicken
Maximize
Empower
Toughness
Improved Crit
Power Attack
Proficiency - Whatever
HUMAN CHOICE: Empower Healing / Extend / Shield Mastery / wahtever

It works. I perfer Silver Flame for the laser capstone.

EDIT: Half Elf can go Fighter dilettante and skip the proficiency; though there's merit in going Rogue dilettante and skipping the choice.

[FrozenNova]

Because I don't want this character to be a warforged. There's nothing wrong with them, I like WF, I just don't want this character as one. I like her as a human is all.

18/2 clerics would do better for a fleshy thf melee divine - in terms of aura being hugely beneficial to melee, and cleric divine might contributing more damage than a fvs using a non-favored weapon, and the ability to fit the THF line alongside quicken, maximize, and empower healing.

Horc - strength, con, enough wis to cast, cha.
Toughness, imp crit, power attack, thfx3, quicken, maximize, empower healing.

Or, skip thf, take empower, and shield mastery, and extra turning.

[Braegan]

I haven't played in a good while, how reasonable would it be now to make a non-WF THF melee/healing FVS? A friend suggested I TR my human FVS at 20 and go with khopeshes, but I'd rather not play another TWF character.

It can be done and can be very good at everything. Takes some grinding but link is my FvS Build and I love it. Depending on your level of grind for the character, you can easily swap out GS for Falchion and rock a greensteel falchion for very good dps as well.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=318443

On Topic.

Why?

Well like others have said, both because I can and it's fun. The most fun I have in this game on a regular basis is with my melee FvS. I can change gears and go caster style and insta-kill, I can hang back and throw mass heals, or I can be in the thick of it swinging an ESOS throwing mass cures on me. I like the many facets, it is what makes a character.

[t0r012]

Give me a RS cleric standing next to a human healing amp AC monk and watch the DPS just keep going and going. Heck even my halfer non amped monk with some AC is happy to have a RS standing next to her swinging short of a raid boss the odds of me dying are slim and none. Even better they arent just standing back with their thumb where the sun don't shine while everyone else kills.

[voodoogroves]

[QUOTE=FrozenNova;4037353]18/2 clerics would do better for a fleshy thf melee divine - in terms of aura being hugely beneficial to melee, and cleric divine might contributing more damage than a fvs using a non-favored weapon, and the ability to fit the THF line alongside quicken, maximize, and empower healing.[/quote[
Cleric absolutely does more melee damage. FVS absolutely does more spell damage.

Horc - strength, con, enough wis to cast, cha.
Toughness, imp crit, power attack, thfx3, quicken, maximize, empower healing.

Or, skip thf, take empower, and shield mastery, and extra turning.

On a cleric I prefer for an 18/2 or 17/2/1 split

TxF, ITxF, GTxF, Toughness, Power Attack, Improved Crit, Quicken, Maximize, Empower Healing
... human take Khopesh and make the x's into W's
... half-orc go 17/2/1 and use a falchion
... etc.

But that core, as you suggested, is all you really need.

[FrozenNova]

Cleric absolutely does more melee damage. FVS absolutely does more spell damage.

Angel of vengence only affects fire, cometfall and blade barrier - not divine punishment.
Meanwhile radient servant boosts DP by two caster levels - so an 18/2 with same metamagics would be equal in DP.
Of course Fvs has the archon and shield proc, so it will come out on top - but for fights like horoth or suulo, the difference is fairly small given you're only using divine punishment.

..Isn't your first feat list.. exactly the same as my first feat list? =P

[gloopygloop]

Angel of vengence only affects fire, cometfall and blade barrier - not divine punishment.
Meanwhile radient servant boosts DP by two caster levels - so an 18/2 with same metamagics would be equal in DP.
Of course Fvs has the archon and shield proc, so it will come out on top - but for fights like horoth or suulo, the difference is fairly small given you're only using divine punishment.

..Isn't your first feat list.. exactly the same as my first feat list? =P

The stacking light vulnerability is a lot of fun on fights against mega-HP bosses. The fact that you can move that effect directly onto the tank is very helpful.

A Cleric and a FvS standing next to each other in the same raid will obviously give the light vulnerability bonus to both DP casters.