Melee on a FvS or Cleric, why?

[sweez]

Thx for the good info!
I was under the impression that you have to splash in order to be good at melee, therfore the -250 SP.

Nope, a 20 horc FvS can easily fit in a weapon prof and still take quicken/empower/maximize

[PurdueDave]

It's really a question of extra DPS (STR) vs. CC and instakills (WIS). Both are going to be mediocre compared to characters specializing in either. Personally, I prefer mediocre DPS over mediocre CC. Mediocre CC can easily become useless CC, but DPS is pretty much always useful.

Indeed. 80% + 50% = 90% or 130%.

The allure of DPS is that it always adds.

[Phidius]

The issue is that "fun" is completely personal and subjective. It can justify anything and it can't really be argued.
...

Oh, and my wife and I constantly argue about what is "fun".

...
On the other hand, costs/benefits of melee vs. casting Divines can be analyzed and discussed. We'll have our own opinions, but they can be based on the realities of the game's design.

Very true, as long as it's understood that analyzing and discussing the costs/benefits of melee vs. casting Divines is the way you are having fun.

I've yet to see an accounting firm successfully launch a P2P/F2P model of their business. I'm guessing that, in general, most people don't consider number crunching to be fun. And even if they do, they tend to expect to be paid for their "work" instead of paying a subscription fee.

After all, the thread is titled "Melee on a FvS or Cleric, why?", not "Melee on a FvS or Cleric, how much?"

On the other hand, I have no objection to a thread that provides more detail into how much "DPS" such builds bring. I may not be interested enough to contribute, but I enjoy the details.

[wolflordnexus]

It's pretty simple really without a ton of gear and past lives divine CC stinks even with the stuff it's still very situational
so may as well add some DPS to the group. With moderate gearing you can put out fairly good dps. not to mention positioning yourself with the melee makes them tons easier to heal.

[HowlingVoyager]

Personally, my LoB AoV Favored Soul is great as a melee self healing solo build. Or any other LoB Favored Soul. It really is how you play, or who you play with.

Our guild right now consists of myself, sister and her husband - other members for the moment are missing without notice. As a static group, we rarely if ever PUG, due to time and, well... incidents in the past that have soured the experience. My FVS, her Monk and his Sorcerer, all just having hit level 14. Sounds like a bad joke, I know, but we can pretty much handle any quest so far with the minimum of hireling help, if any.

I guess the equation would read FVS-melee/healer/offensive caster/buffer (gotta love BB!!!!!), Monk-melee/tank, Sorcerer-Nuker/buffer/healer (LOVE Firewall with BB!!!) All together, we make a pretty good team. I know we'll probably never Epic any quests, at least not in the near future, but we've elited more than a few with very happy results.

I guess my point is that it all comes down to resource management. If you have the resources and access to PUGs to min/max go for it. If you have to concentrate on what's best for your small group, you balance everything as best you can to work with the skills and abilities of everyone else. It ain't pretty, but it gets the job done.

Oh, and have I mentioned I totally adore my WF AoV LoB FVS? Next goal is getting my wings!

[bigolbear]

recent maths shows conclusively(id link the thread but i cant be bothered to search for it):

a fvs or cleric that puts a little towards mele will do aproximately 50% of the dps of a fully speced out lvl 20 kensai assuming same weapon style and weapon - whithout sacrificing casting stat. thats 50% extra damage buff to one mele in the group, now why would u say no to that?

with a little effort it can go as high 60% with marginal loss to casting - mostly meta feats, typicaly max and empower.

and capping out at about 70% with loss of offensive casting DC's and metas but no significant loss to healing.

oh and against hvy fort enemies, especialy undead said cleric or fvs will excell, heck considering an aura ticking away the cleric may even be bringing more dps (mele and aura combined).

Now all that said, i still think its dumb to forego casting on a cleric. if anything that maths proves it. But honestly a mele divine may not do as much damage as a fighter or barb but it certainly isnt insignificant.

want an example?

well my cleric is a 17/2/1 split. cleric, monk, fighter with a mere 25 str, 36 wisdom metafeats galore and about 500 hp. I swing my mineral 2 great axe for about 50 damage a swing +holy (7) acid (4) force (1) and normaly 6 points of sneak. Thats hardly useless, but i fuly admit its not as much as a fighter, and certainly way less when enemies are unfortified due to seeker and kensai stuff.

compare them numbers to a fighter - you see given excelent gear that cleric is doing over 50% of the fighters damage.

uber? no.
useful? hell yes.

[morticianjohn]

On a melee FvS no mana = slow down and use scrolls. On an evoker running out of mana is worse. Maybe you never run out of SP but I think melee is less taxing on the spell pool (or maybe it's because torc is going off more).

[jandhaer]

I totally don't understand the obsession with having to melee on a cleric or a FvS. What's the benefit? What kind of melee dps are we talking about under the most optimal circumstances? And how much casting/healing ability do you have to sacrifice? In most epics i don't have any trouble getting ahead in kill counts with my Evoker FvS (fully capable to heal raids AND dps on raid bosses + crown) compared to a so called DPS FvS (even if they have a ESoS and even if i am the only healer).

So what's the deal here?

Are you serious???

1. The benefit is being awesome, and obviously many find it FUN TO PLAY (this is a game right?)

2. It can add a good deal of DPS, since there is no reason you cant still cast Divine Punishment, Blade Barrier, Cometfall and heals etc. while doing so, and some people dont want to just kite around, running scared, casting all day.

3. I was a Melee Pure FvS last life (often seen running around with my soon to be upgraded in U11 Epic Antique Greataxe )and could easily heal raids, STR build and still had just under 2800 sp iirc and with being in the middle of every brawl and taking hits with conc opps and a torq on actually much more. Saying that they sacrifice in healing is just absurd.

4. I would actually go on the record saying that a Evoker FvS is a **WORSE** healer as they are spending a vast majority of their spells casting offensively ( I know they will say but I could JUST heal if I needed and I say great but then your ONLY healing and a HEALBOT is a WASTE of a party space ) where a Melee version can save his solely for healing should the need arise and STILL BE A BENEFIT TO THE PARTY.

So on any quest where your in for the loooong haul I would want a divine with more options then being reduced to chugging mana pots like beer on Sunday so they can still contribute .

[BlargneyTheSecond]

Have you ever played a fighter or barbarian and wished you had leap of faith or abundant step?

[DeafeningWhisper]

All FvS should be dps, why? More love for us Clerics! Joking aside , While I agree that a well built FvS can heal and dps at the same time many are weary of FvS, I know people who just don't take any anymore.

The problem, just like the Ranger problem, is bad players give them a bad rep. There are 2 delusions that I have seen a lot of: the "Ftr with self heal" and "Light savant". The first wants (read demands) the dps spot in a party because he's better then a ftr since he can self heal, the second spends all his sp on his light spell, both have the same problem:they don't heal the party. The result = FvS with splashes get little to no love and even pure FvS get asked "healer?" before they are accepted in a party.

[ThePrincipal]

a divine is more suited to melee than offensive casting. healing is easier and more efficient from the front than from the rear of the party (healing aura/bursts, mass heal centered on self). and divine melee buffs are excellent. it just makes sense.

[protokon]

I totally don't understand the obsession with having to melee on a cleric or a FvS. What's the benefit? What kind of melee dps are we talking about under the most optimal circumstances? And how much casting/healing ability do you have to sacrifice? In most epics i don't have any trouble getting ahead in kill counts with my Evoker FvS (fully capable to heal raids AND dps on raid bosses + crown) compared to a so called DPS FvS (even if they have a ESoS and even if i am the only healer).

So what's the deal here?

Because I can.

even on my 8 base str cleric I will take out a weapon and swing occasionally. It's a game, after all.

[Chette]

Concerning Evoker Boss dps:

Maximize, quicken, empower and empower healing, sadly no chrono set:
Crown!!!! ("Centring mass heals on myself is a good way of keeping everyone alive and the crown up.")
+ Divine Punishment for something like 1.7k per crit
+ Free searing Light (surprisingly high crits)
+ various spells depending on the group dps and attention needed for the tank
+ maybe 250 more SP then a melee FvS (right?)

None of these are exclusive to a DC based caster. You'll probably have more SP, but not necessarily, there are plenty of pure DPS divines.

Both are amazingly powerful classes. I have a 40 evocation DC pure FvS that I love to play. Solo everything, epic farming, fantastic healing and some crowd control (that will get better when we can do spelll specific metamagics next update).

I also have an 18/2 Half Elf TWF FvS. She can heal just as well as the other. She has maximize, empower and quicken, plus the PrE, so she can do divine punishment just as well as the other.

I love both, and both have their places. I generally prefer to play my DPS for raiding and my caster for solo farming and epic questing.

[Calebro]

a balanced approach is only likely to end up with a character that sucks at doing both things.

No necessarily true. Yes, some sacrifices need to be made, but that doesn't mean both will end up sucking.

Example: I have an 18/2 Monk splash FvS, mostly caster spec'd, with a little GTWF'ing melee thrown in. His melee DPS is obviously less than stellar because he's caster spec'd, but it does enough that when I want to conserve SP in less dangerous fights I'm still contributing. And all it cost me was 1 point of DCs by starting with a 16 Wis rather than an 18, and 2 points of Spell Pen from the splash.
The melee DPS suffers from missing PA, and that's all he's missing on the melee side (as a 24 Str isn't enough to reliably hit with PA on).

Is he optimized for casting? No.
Can he cast offensively, and still be reliable at it? Yes.
Is he optimized for melee? No.
Can he still melee reliably? Yes. He doesn't do nearly as much melee damage as someone more melee focused, but he can still melee.
This took quite a bit of planning to do via stats/gear/spell choices/etc, but saying that it's *likely* that he'll suck at both is a bit of an overstatement.

[gloopygloop]

No necessarily true. Yes, some sacrifices need to be made, but that doesn't mean both will end up sucking.

Example: I have an 18/2 Monk splash FvS, mostly caster spec'd, with a little GTWF'ing melee thrown in. His melee DPS is obviously less than stellar because he's caster spec'd, but it does enough that when I want to conserve SP in less dangerous fights I'm still contributing. And all it cost me was 1 point of DCs by starting with a 16 Wis rather than an 18, and 2 points of Spell Pen from the splash.
The melee DPS suffers from missing PA, and that's all he's missing on the melee side (as a 24 Str isn't enough to reliably hit with PA on).

Is he optimized for casting? No.
Can he cast offensively, and still be reliable at it? Yes.
Is he optimized for melee? No.
Can he still melee reliably? Yes. He doesn't do nearly as much melee damage as someone more melee focused, but he can still melee.
This took quite a bit of planning to do via stats/gear/spell choices/etc, but saying that it's *likely* that he'll suck at both is a bit of an overstatement.

I'd agree 100% with dkyle's assertion that a "balanced" character is likely to be a character that sucks at everything. I do believe that it is *possible* to make a character that is mainly focused on offensive casting, but which can do some melee when appropriate and I do believe that it is *possible* to make a character that is mainly focused on melee, but which can do some offensive casting when appropriate, but that is certainly not the "likely" outcome - especially on a multiclass character.

There are enough ways to screw up and make a character that can't do anything well enough to be effective that "likely to end up with a character that sucks at doing both things" seems like a perfect characterization of the both DDO and pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons. The rule of thumb in both games is "go big or go home".

[Chai]

I'd agree 100% with dkyle's assertion that a "balanced" character is likely to be a character that sucks at everything. I do believe that it is *possible* to make a character that is mainly focused on offensive casting, but which can do some melee when appropriate and I do believe that it is *possible* to make a character that is mainly focused on melee, but which can do some offensive casting when appropriate, but that is certainly not the "likely" outcome - especially on a multiclass character.

I dont agree with those all or nothing assertations spreadsheet gamers make. With some outside the box thinking you can make a toon that will out DPS a one trick pony character and have infinately more survivability. Instead of one super awesome ability which no one can match you at, you build a toon that has 3 or 4 DPS abilities which when all used at once, add up to outing pure melee in both damage and survival. Spreadsheet gamers dont admit this of course, because the common viewpoint when discussing DPS is, if it isnt first place, its useless. The minute water savants began outing melee by a long shot, many people came to these boards claiming melee was now irrelevant.

There are enough ways to screw up and make a character that can't do anything well enough to be effective that "likely to end up with a character that sucks at doing both things" seems like a perfect characterization of the both DDO and pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons. The rule of thumb in both games is "go big or go home".

Ive seen this done on pure melee just as often as I see it happen on splashed divine. People start their fighters str at 19 and put a few rogue levels on the build for UMD and evasion and now all of a sudden, they are "gimp". Instead of having an 78 sustainable strength they have a 77. Oh noes!!! The only measuring tool that is used to make this claim is how the toon performs against 3 big devils, 1 abashai devistator, and a demon queen.

I take these max DPS / no survivability toons into enter the kobold hard or elite, SOS, TOD elite part 1, etc, and they die, usually after a good 20 minutes of talking about how awesome their toon is at stealing aggro and keeping it.

No, D&D P&P is not like DDO, heh. Go big or go home fails the minute metagaming is not on your side. Without being able to metagame, all of the weakspots of your toon can no longer be covered up by buffs before encounters. If you have a photographic memory and have memorized every page of all monster manuals, more power to you. Everyone else is bowing to the metagaming gods as much as they can, and relying on a generous DM with their dumped charisma half orcs, who are one full attack round from being too ugly to take a standard action.

[erikbozelie]

no i have not read the entire thing, sorry.

however there used to be an time in which people needed to get dps for the higher hit point monsters in the game,
casters would just not suffice.

350.000 hit points, coultnd be beaten by 12 casters back then. you would need melee. nowadays casters and divines are outnuking the melee-es because of DOTs. and an whole lot stacking eqeupment and gear.

they can gain an insane 600 dps and maintain is for 30 min.

it used to be an reason, why they do it now? well... because they can i guess. why just wait for the spell to kill them while you can kill them faster while swinging weapons in between .

[der_kluge]

You can do some dps and save your sp for healing

This.

I tank Harry along with the big boys, deal out really respectable DPS (I think it's a lot, but I have no idea what kinds of numbers everyone around me is putting up), and I can devote all my spells to healing.

[kublaikhanx]

I love melee clerics. They are that fun to play and its always funny to see people's reaction in PUG's. RS Burst FTW

BTW a HO str based melee clonk can do decent damage. Even more if HANDWRAPS EVER GET FIXED!!!$@!#*&(!@*#&(!

[EatSmart]

The big one is because it is essentially free dps. People practically kill themselves over farming gear for stacking +2 to damage relative to other gearsets they could wear on their melee toons.

Melee dps and spellcasting dps are not mutually exclusive on a divine especially once you reach endgame. They can do both quite comfortably even on a pure build. The reason is mainly down to gear. For example the 3 piece abishai boosts both casting and melee at the same time. Healing can be entirely covered with ardour clickies which take no slots (swap in, click, swap out), likewise brilliance clickies for DP + searing light.

The real obstacles are not ones inherent to the build or the concept.
- "If I melee I'll be to distracted to heal my raid when it matters" is not really that different from a person that needs to stand still in a fps game to shoot. If a person has that issue, and they feel that they cant learn, then it is entirely appropriate to chose a build that narrows down the playstyle to one that is more comfortable to handle.
- "I'm to squishy to go into melee" "I cant hit X on a 2" are more to do with gear acquisition, which takes time on all toons. Some more than others.

Divines have a lot of different aspects. The limits on your character's performance are your build's ability to leverage the class' abilities, and the player's ability to use the build that you've made. It makes a lot of sense for someone who is mainly able to use mono-focus toons to play mono-focus toons that are hyper specialised.