Melee on a FvS or Cleric, why?

[Hoglum]

The first time I read about a so called "healbot" I almost puked. Then I found out in other games people actually sit around doing nothing but healing people. It was quite the eye opener.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Your typical wf melee fvs or 18/2 battlecleric during a bossfight will easily outdamage all other melees while keeping the group up.

Meanwhile your average non-tr'd casting divine in epics is going to achieve little over nothing at all without a huge amount of debuffs and drains.

If you're implying melee is suboptimal - I respectfully disagree.

Outdamaging is debatable & would depend a fair bit on luck with crits etc.. though yeah on a bossfight especially with stacking DP then i think it's certainly in the ballpark - would be tricky to check, maybe the easiest would be if you have 1 melee & 1 melee divine having a race on shroud portals with roughly the same weapons, or just run a quest 2x and time the fight soloing the boss... in which case the melee would still likely be relying on the divine to keep them alive while the divine would only need to rely on themselves

Also, a clonk can have a surprisingly high stunning fist DC which makes them excellent against non-boss mobs so they contribute extra dps in another way.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

I totally don't understand the obsession with having to melee on a cleric or a FvS. What's the benefit? What kind of melee dps are we talking about under the most optimal circumstances? And how much casting/healing ability do you have to sacrifice? In most epics i don't have any trouble getting ahead in kill counts with my Evoker FvS (fully capable to heal raids AND dps on raid bosses + crown) compared to a so called DPS FvS (even if they have a ESoS and even if i am the only healer).

So what's the deal here?

Because beating on the raid boss gives me something to do inbetween the cool down times on Mass Heal and Divine Punishment?

I have 2 capped pure FvS, one is a melee the other an evoker. They play a little differently and I play the one that fits how I want to play at the time.

This is a game and it's supposed to be fun. My idea of fun various depending on my mood.

Yes its all about me.

[eulogy098]

Your typical wf melee fvs or 18/2 battlecleric during a bossfight will easily outdamage all other melees while keeping the group up.

Meanwhile your average non-tr'd casting divine in epics is going to achieve little over nothing at all without a huge amount of debuffs and drains.

If you're implying melee is suboptimal - I respectfully disagree.

On his best day my battlecleric doesn't provide even half the DPS of my Paladin or Barbarians and he's about as well geared as it's currently possible to get...

Hes still fun because he can heal but outdamage other melees? not even when the stars align.


Hell, he barley even gives my Warchanter a run for his money dps wise.

[FrozenNova]

Outdamaging is debatable & would depend a fair bit on luck with crits etc.. though yeah on a bossfight especially with stacking DP then i think it's certainly in the ballpark - would be tricky to check, maybe the easiest would be if you have 1 melee & 1 melee divine having a race on shroud portals with roughly the same weapons, or just run a quest 2x and time the fight soloing the boss... in which case the melee would still likely be relying on the divine to keep them alive while the divine would only need to rely on themselves

Also, a clonk can have a surprisingly high stunning fist DC which makes them excellent against non-boss mobs so they contribute extra dps in another way.

Shroud portals wouldn't be the best idea. My fvs takes out two-three portals alone per shroud with dp, and that's on my non-swinging caster. Against the valley portal, yeah, it takes me a full minute - but that's without any melee, and I'm not even carrying greater or even normal arcane lore. I'm fairly confident that a fully geared wf fvs will outdamage a fully geared primary melee. Granted, it'll take them 30s to reach tier 3 DP, and in a typical battle they're going to be spending half their time casting cures. Nonetheless.

On his best day my battlecleric doesn't provide even half the DPS of my Paladin or Barbarians and he's about as well geared as it's currently possible to get...

Hes still fun because he can heal but outdamage other melees? not even when the stars align.


Hell, he barley even gives my Warchanter a run for his money dps wise.

Let's look at divine punishment.

DP t3 base damage: 70.5
Smiting IV: 0.40
Superior Brilliance 5: 0.75
Maximize and empower: 2.5
Average for non-crit: 70.5*(1+0.4+0.75)*2.5 = 378.93

Prayer of smiting III: 0.09 crit chance
Incredible smiting III: 2.25 crit multiplier
Greater arcane lore: 0.09 crit chance
Greater arcane lore: 0.25 crit multiplier

Damage - 378.93*(1-0.09-0.09) + (0.09+0.09)*(2.25+0.25)*378.93 = 310.7226 + 170.5185 = 482.2411 average per tick. One tick / 2 seconds, 240.62 dps.

As such, even if your cleric is rather poor and dealing only half the damage of a typical secondary melee - say, 150 dps to his 300, you are still significantly outdoing that typical melee.

If you were to add in - fvs archon - rakhir's set - eardweller - fvs light vulnerability proc - and a fully geared wf fvs hefting an eSoS or +5HBSoGEOB - divines can quite definitely hit up there with the 500 dps primary melees.

[Ebonrook]

So what's the deal here?

This is going to sound crazy:

Back when some of us starting playing the initial incarnation of this game, back in the late 70s, when it was table top and imagination was involved and all that... it wasn't solely about DPS and uniform roles. I know, I know... inconceivable, but take a moment and let's just pretend that's the way it was.

See, you rolled *characters*, not spread sheets... your character had this thing called a "concept" and it was more than an accumulation of possible DPS numbers, it had a personality all its own and often involved things entirely outside of swinging a given piece of metal at high rates of speed. Because imagination was involved and, in many instances, the DM's discretion in rolling on an action that wasn't covered in the handbook, characters became all *sorts* of thing outside of their particular niche - a cleric might have been raised in an armed bandit camp and only came to his or her faith late in life, or a warrior might have been raised in a library and, thus, have a dab of magic under their belt.

Now the RPG has become the MMORPG, and there has arrived a very popular mindset that if your're focusing on character or concept over "DPS", then you are "gimped" (I loathe even using that term - it lost all meaning around 2 minutes into Ultima Online's beta testing) - "gimped" used to mean "this character build is unplayably awful, it cannot defeat a damp napkin". Now it means "this character build does slightly less DPS than one I prefer".

The implication is that the game is rocket science, string theory, brain surgery.... if you don't max that DPS and eschew all else in favor of getting on the kill list with a character tweaked for one specific role, then the game will explode, all of our brains will melt, and the black plague will return to the earth, dooming us all. I'm not saying that's the message behind the OP, but putting aside such views leads to all sorts of fun to be had in character design.

But here's a secret: it's not a hard game. Matter of fact, any decently balanced team can pretty much ace almost all of the content. And while worry about max DPS or sticking to one role and such can be fun for some, it's a far cry from necessary.

So long story short, the "deal" here was probably a player having fun for their monthly charges.

This message has been brought to you by an old gamer who is still shaking his head by what MMOs have done to RPGs in general.

[Iphigen]

Let's exclude "fun" from this discussion please. My first gimped toon was fun too but i wouldn't discuss it on a building forum ...and we are most certainly not talking about healbots. They are no fun. Contradiction alert! :-)

So the combined wisdom (or strength) of these forums is: both are strong builds. Going melee on a divine is all about good boss dps and spaming mass heals and maybe get evasion + reflex to a meaningful level while having maybe 250 less SP?

Well for fast epic questing kill count does matter, but not so much for raiding and a wailing arcane or rogue is n1 anyways. :-)

So, how does boss dps compare between the two build concepts? Are they similar?

Concerning Evoker Boss dps:

Maximize, quicken, empower and empower healing, sadly no chrono set:
Crown!!!! ("Centring mass heals on myself is a good way of keeping everyone alive and the crown up.")
+ Divine Punishment for something like 1.7k per crit
+ Free searing Light (surprisingly high crits)
+ various spells depending on the group dps and attention needed for the tank
+ maybe 250 more SP then a melee FvS (right?)

Evokers can do some CC as well:
Sitting at 34 cometfall at the moment (not hightened). If i could get it a little higher this would be awesome CC and DPS for little SP in epic quests like claw and such.

@Fuzzyduck
You got to admit that not only implosion but melee attacks too have a limited range.

[eulogy098]

DP alone will outdamage most every secondary melee, such as paladins versus non eo's or bards.

no, it wont. but you can try to prove it here :

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

[LordPiglet]

I totally don't understand the obsession with having to melee on a cleric or a FvS. What's the benefit? What kind of melee dps are we talking about under the most optimal circumstances? And how much casting/healing ability do you have to sacrifice? In most epics i don't have any trouble getting ahead in kill counts with my Evoker FvS (fully capable to heal raids AND dps on raid bosses + crown) compared to a so called DPS FvS (even if they have a ESoS and even if i am the only healer).

So what's the deal here?

Because some of us like to melee.

Actually, since we're not taking any install kill spells, and only taking divine punishment and blade barrier, a melee build will generally have more buffs or masses.

I'll take heal, and all the masses but serious. Melee only takes two feats as a thf, which would be PA and Improved Critical. You're taking spell focus instead of those feats yourself.

A melee fvs who doesn't heal is doing it wrong.

[krackythehoodedone]

You can do a lot more than just heal

Without losing your healing ability.

For Clerics, they are a bit Ltd on SP to raid heal and offensive spellcast

So melee is a good option to give that little bit extra.

My Clonk has 607HP a 45 reflex save and evasion

I hit for 60 ish (non crit or special) and swing L11 or min 11 Kamas.

So melee holds little danger, and i'm not likely to take aggro.

And a Clonk with Mabar wraps ,Gtwf,Redscale,Tod ring and Mass Heals is an undead Killer par excellence

Using the radiance in the combat area makes a BIG difference

I get SP back from Con Opp and Torc

I can fire off Mass Heals whilst swinging away, or use a burst if needed.

The only cautionary note i would add. If your fairly new to the Healing game

Make sure you have got that nailed before you start trying to do something else as well.

[dkyle]

So, how does boss dps compare between the two build concepts? Are they similar?

Concerning Evoker Boss dps:

Maximize, quicken, empower and empower healing, sadly no chrono set:
Crown!!!! ("Centring mass heals on myself is a good way of keeping everyone alive and the crown up.")
+ Divine Punishment for something like 1.7k per crit
+ Free searing Light (surprisingly high crits)

A melee FvS can have all of the above. In fact, mine does, except she has the free heal instead of the free searing light.

+ maybe 250 more SP then a melee FvS (right?)

There's little reason for an Evoker FvS to have more SP than a Melee FvS. Both have little reason to put anything but the minimum needed for level 9 spells in CHA.

The SP difference exists for Clerics, as WIS is both the bonus SP and the DC stat for them, so a WIS-focused Cleric has more SP than a STR-focused cleric.

Evokers can do some CC as well:
Sitting at 34 cometfall at the moment (not hightened). If i could get it a little higher this would be awesome CC and DPS for little SP in epic quests like claw and such.

Yes. This is the whole point of Divine casters. You don't need WIS to put out a lot of damage from spells, but you do need it for effective CC.

It's really a question of extra DPS (STR) vs. CC and instakills (WIS). Both are going to be mediocre compared to characters specializing in either. Personally, I prefer mediocre DPS over mediocre CC. Mediocre CC can easily become useless CC, but DPS is pretty much always useful.

[Iphigen]

Thx for the good info!
I was under the impression that you have to splash in order to be good at melee, therfore the -250 SP.

[gloopygloop]

no, it wont. but you can try to prove it here :

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

Most characters don't get even close to those times. Take a look at your average Barbarian that recently hit 20 and maybe has a LitII Greataxe. He won't be posting times even close to the ones listed there.

A well buffed DP absoultely does more damage than most secondary melee characters. Most secondary melee characters (and even a whole lot of primary melee characters) deliver really disappointing DPS.

[tekkentroop]

Why my cleric goes for melee dps? Quite simple, its very mana-efficient. He might not be very fast killing stuff with his greataxe and running RS Aura, but he can save most of his SP for emergency situations and bossfights. It makes soloing a lot easier (dunno how a caster can solo some quests without running out of SP) and contributes to overall party damage output.

My cleric sacrificed the capstone and a bit of mana for this, his technical healing capabilities are 95% of what a caster/pure healbot could do and 100% of what is required in non-epic parties. Now if my personal reaction speed and judgement was that good...

[FrozenNova]

Thx for the good info!
I was under the impression that you have to splash in order to be good at melee, therfore the -250 SP.

Clerics often will, since an 18/2 can fit the THF line with reasonable success, and they need proficiencies. Clerics also take sp from wisdom so they'll be a sizable chunk of sp behind pure. That's offset by THF and divine might, making their melee dps arguably higher than most melee fvs.

[Kmnh]

Melee divines are easier to level up than pure casters and they make the best tanks if they get the hp/threat gen gear right.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Thx for the good info!
I was under the impression that you have to splash in order to be good at melee, therfore the -250 SP.

I think the main reason for the splash is that on fleshy melee FvS, they'll tend to go 2wf for melee dps which pretty much requires the feats to make it effective.. also having 2 monk gives evasion, which with a high-saves class is naturally very efffective.

WF lord of blades FvS though will most likely be using greatswords & therefore wont have to worry about those extra 2hander feats to be effective so they can stay pure a lot more easily.. which also lends itself to increased melee durability through the 10/adamantine capstone (perma-stoneskin!) which stacks with the racial enhancements for up to 13/admanatine DR or 15/adamantine if you choose to take the body feat.. potentially even higher if you're willing to spend more feats though thats generally a waste. Personally, i've got the full 15/adamantine, partly for survivability & partly just because i prefer the look

The only problem I've found with having that much DR, especially if i do a load of solo/low-man/loot runs, is that when i switch back to other characters it can come as a nasty surprise when you end up taking that much extra damage again :P

[dkyle]

no, it wont. but you can try to prove it here :

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

At the triple stack, the DPS of DP is easy to calculate. On average, with good gear/build it should be:

(3.5+20)*3*(2.5)*(1.4+.75)*(1 + .18*1.75) = 499 average per tick, so with 2 seconds per tick, that means 250 DPS

Against Sobrien, that would be 276 seconds. Against the Portal, that would be 48 seconds. The first is towards the bottom of the pack, but the pack is primarily Fighters and Barbs, not merely secondary melee. It is well above the only Pali there. The second is near the top of the list.

Obviously, unlike melee, DP has a ramp-up time. But in the long term, and against the biggest bosses, the overall DPS will trend towards the triple stack. Especially after U11 with boss HP going up. And with boss fortification going up, melee DPS takes a nosedive, while DP just keeps going (as you can see with the portal comparison).

I also didn't use an Eardweller (unsustainable, compared to Brilliance V clickies), or factor in the vulnerability from the crown (whose contribution varies wildly in practice), or the DPS from the lantern, which is (2+20)*(1.4+.75)*(1 + .18*1.75)/2 = 31 DPS.

[Phidius]

This is going to sound crazy:

Back when some of us starting playing the initial incarnation of this game, back in the late 70s, when it was table top and imagination was involved and all that... it wasn't solely about DPS and uniform roles. I know, I know... inconceivable, but take a moment and let's just pretend that's the way it was.
...

Very well said (even though I truncated it for the sake of brevity )

Let's exclude "fun" from this discussion please...

Exclude "fun" from the discussion of choices in a game? Should I be following the funny white rabbit in a waistcoat?

Seriously, I melee on my "clerics" because I find it fun. The old version of tempest made it even more fun - there's something about twirling blades that is very hypnotic and relaxing. When was the last time you tried to wack something, but was told "You are not facing your target"?

I've tried to play a normal "melee" (fighter, barbarian, rogue, monk, and even ranger), and I keep coming back to the melee arcane/divine (either 17+ with a splash, or 12/6/2).

The simple reason is that when I play a normal "melee", I find myself in various degrees needing another class for one thing or another.

When I play a melee arcane/divine, all I need is company. And a stack of majors

[dkyle]

Exclude "fun" from the discussion of choices in a game? Should I be following the funny white rabbit in a waistcoat?

The issue is that "fun" is completely personal and subjective. It can justify anything and it can't really be argued.

On the other hand, costs/benefits of melee vs. casting Divines can be analyzed and discussed. We'll have our own opinions, but they can be based on the realities of the game's design.