Give Mobs a Save Against the DOTS

[SupTyr]

Traditionally unresistable elements like force, tends to be rare.. and very low damage. Magic missiles, chain, force misisle, etc.. All very low dmg/dps, because they are unresistable.

exactly this

[Dazalarian]

Hi,

while I'm all for the DOT (I really like the concept), I think it was porly implemented without much thought of the impact. I know a bunch of ppl are mindlessly bleating "Dont touch the DOT, its the only way my caster/fvs can do any damage and not be just a buff/heal-bot in bossfights". But if you guys would take a step back and think about the pre-DOT era and how the game is now you'll realize that alot of the high-end content that used to be somewhat of a challenge has been changed into trivial street. For example the Shroud, when was the last time anyone was in a pug shroud that didnt do a 1 rounder in part 4 since the DOT's were introduced?

I'm all for the DOT's but they need to be changed in some way cause atm they are too powerful in the way they are implemented.

Cheers,
-Daz

[HarveyMilk]

Hi,

while I'm all for the DOT (I really like the concept), I think it was porly implemented without much thought of the impact. I know a bunch of ppl are mindlessly bleating "Dont touch the DOT, its the only way my caster/fvs can do any damage and not be just a buff/heal-bot in bossfights". But if you guys would take a step back and think about the pre-DOT era and how the game is now you'll realize that alot of the high-end content that used to be somewhat of a challenge has been changed into trivial street. For example the Shroud, when was the last time anyone was in a pug shroud that didnt do a 1 rounder in part 4 since the DOT's were introduced?

I'm all for the DOT's but they need to be changed in some way cause atm they are too powerful in the way they are implemented.

Cheers,
-Daz

Daz, in U11 they are raising the hp and power of bosses to correct this. No one likes trivial fights. But arcanes and divines do like their dots and contributing to dps (read: having more things to do than whack-a-mole healing/necro-ing)

[jakeelala]

Calling for a Nerf to DOTS with a save is stupid. THe people doing all the damage with DOTs are NOT the people who have dumped the primary stat. DOTs will continue to do huge damage because people will still max the relevant stats, and saves will still be failed.

Get a grip.

There is nothing wrong with DOTs. There is no reason a pure, lvl 20 caster shouldn't be able to match DPS with a melee character using SP in a way that doesn't totally exhaust their SP pool. What's the point otherwise? Maybe melee should be SUPPORT, and not be kings of DPS. Maybe melee should support the ultimate DPS of godlike casters.

Shade is just mad he can't always keep aggro anymore just by swinging a sword or an axe. Sure, he has a FvS, but he NEVER plays it.

Why would you reduce DOT damage? Before, raids would have 6-8 melee, then a couple healers, and maybe a couple arcanes. Why shouldn't it be just as preferable to have 6-8 arcanes? Why does the entire game need to be balanced around 3 melees for every arcane?

Who says that's the most fun and what anyone wants besides Shade with his max DPS barbarian?

[Jiirix]

And it is not like the DOTs do good damage without any affords made. Most DOT users invest in a pre and three other enchantment lines. Get some clickies and spell crit gear (Blue Dragon Scale, Skiver and Greenblade, all hard to get). And I may add that the mother of all D&D Dots reads like that:

Acid Arrow
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One arrow of acid
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per three levels
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

[Razcar]

Before, raids would have 6-8 melee, then a couple healers, and maybe a couple arcanes. Why shouldn't it be just as preferable to have 6-8 arcanes? Why does the entire game need to be balanced around 3 melees for every arcane?

Umm.. the reason for that being the situation should be quite clear.

We have 11 classes. 6 physical combat classes. 2 caster classes. (and 3 hybrid classes, Cleric, FvS, bard). It is logical that melee classes should be three times as common.... because there's three times as many.

[Lifeblood]

They (and really they alone) are what is causing the "boss kiting" method to cause the concerns it is seeing from the Devs on Lammania. Blade Barriers are saved against. The Dots are not.
Please note Devs, it is not really the wings that cause this issue, it's the DOTs.

I have 3 divines 2 cleric, 1 FS, Sorc and a Wiz..(all with dots), in addition to 5 other characters i play
I pug quite often and have never seen this done..so your saying the FS dots a mob hits the wings runs for a bit, turns around and dots again....rinse repeat?..

sounds like more trouble than its worth...now a proper AI would realize I cant catch this guy..and go pound on the nearest cleric/caster

It starts to bring them not to levels where they can contribute something, but levels where they nearly match the top DPS melee clases that have to sacrifice a ton to get there.

This is your worst nightmare ...a class that can out dps a barb..Why do Barbs have to be the best dps in the game?
why do you insist on labeling every class other than barbs as "support" classes?

Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

This is an inaccurate statement ,I am sure you would never lie or exaggerate to bolster your personal opinion so should/can we chalk this one up to your lack of knowledge?.

your homework assignment: find out what mob(s) have light resistance

btw do you have dr breaking wep for most if not all mobs in the game?



I Like Dots I use dots in most quests ..are they OP? not imo ...but they must be if a Divine can threaten a barbarians epeen

If a spell is doing that much damage then perhaps the way threat/agro is applied to spells needs to be tweaked...I mean --- forbid that the monster AI actually works in a way that makes sense

as for being able to "tank" a boss...who cares if it is a divine, tukaw build or just A slab of meat with 900hp?

[SirValentine]

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

Epic Crateos?

For some mobs, the Extend nerf to Blade Barrier was balanced out by the new Divine Punishment spell. Not so for this guy.

[Vellrad]

Umm.. the reason for that being the situation should be quite clear.

We have 11 classes. 6 physical combat classes. 2 caster classes. (and 3 hybrid classes, Cleric, FvS, bard). It is logical that melee classes should be three times as common.... because there's three times as many.

So?
If sorc applies in old setting, there is no room for wizard, and vice versa.
If barb applies in old setting, barb icon was not removed from LFM.

[Gauthaag]

heh, i think solution is simple. Let some enemy casters use the new dot spells, even metamagic enhanced, on players.

[Razcar]

So?
If sorc applies in old setting, there is no room for wizard, and vice versa.
If barb applies in old setting, barb icon was not removed from LFM.

Sorry, I don't understand what you missed there, unless there's a language barrier-thing going on. jakeelala complained about how often before U9 there used to be three melees to every arcance. That is logical, since of the classes offered to players, there are three times as many melees as casters. So there used to be more "slots" for melee (which could generally be any, just like the casters could be any of the two flavors) in an average pug raid or quest party.

If you want proof, log on during US peak hours (so there are many players on) and sort the Who list on classes. Count how many Page Downs you can do with the two caster classes, and then do the same with the six melee classes. And this is still the case even after U9, when casters completely lost sight of melees in their rear-view mirrors (maybe not still three times as many though).

[MrTops]

I don't get it.

Divine punishment does 1d6 + 20 for 8 (7?) ticks, or a total of 8d6 + 160, or an average of 188 per cast.

Firewall does 2d6 + 15 for 15(?) ticks, or a total of 30d6 + 255, or an average of 360 per cast (180 if it's saved against). And firewall can affect multiple targets.

I can't see what the fuss is about.

Both Clerics and FvS get the smiting line. FvS get and extra 30% for fire, physical or untyped. Not sure if light is untyped or not (but as it deals extra damage to PM forms I imagine it is typed).

Arcanes get elemental enhancements, so no major difference.

[PlaneswalkerJP]

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

But immunity there is.

[voodoogroves]

Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

Traditionally unresistable elements like force, tends to be rare.. and very low damage. Magic missiles, chain, force misisle, etc.. All very low dmg/dps, because they are unresistable.

Take a look at the new rune arms for example, force and light types are severely reduced compared to elemental.

Then divine punishment comes out - no save, unresistable element.. And angel of vengeance gets huge bonuses to boost it to not only eqaul levels of the sorcerer equivalens, but even beyond them if they can manage to stack there light vulnerability debuff enough times.

It starts to bring them not to levels where they can contribute something, but levels where they nearly match the top DPS melee clases that have to sacrifice a ton to get there.. While the fvs needs only a simple potentcy item and to press 1 button every 15 seconds.

And for a class with such incredible power in other areas, putting them up at those levels of DPS just isn't balanced.

I'd go furhter on DP changes myself then just a reflex save for half.. I'd drop them to 1d6 +1 per two casters levels.
3 stack would end up being 3d6+30 damage, which is still very powerful for unresistable type.. But not the insane current 3d6+60 damage it deals. (In boosted terms, that means upwards of 2000 per crit tic on debuffed foes)

(1) In many ways I agree that DP has problems- but I think it's the multiplicative, stacking condemnation rather than the base spell. Radiant Servants aren't owning the world with it, after all.

(2) Craetos, just off the top of my head, is completely immune. I'm not saying there are lots, I'm saying there are some - I agree with your principle (it's not highly resisted) but you're exaggerating a bit.

(3) Incidentally, the best way to amp the damage is to put your aura on a melee type (like a barb) so that the curse fires lots. I find that if I'm in some place like VoD and we're using a barb hate tank that I'll end up getting the craziest DP numbers. Sadly, the "hate" generated by the extra damage is assigned to the FVS; I'd much rather that get assigned to the aura target.

[voodoogroves]

as for being able to "tank" a boss...who cares if it is a divine, tukaw build or just A slab of meat with 900hp?

Duh. The divine, the tukaw and the slab of meat all care ;-)

[Sarisa]

Crateos is immune to light.
Most Iron Golems and some Clay Golems are resistant to light. Not heavily, but enough to notice.

The power isn't exactly Divine Punishment, what makes FvS's overpowered is the Wings. Monks and Air Savants simply don't have the same amount of power with their "long jump" because they don't have all the other abilities that works so well with a FvS's wings.

Shield Mastery DoT tanking by a FvS or WF Arcane I like best in Epic Deeps, and I've seen it done successfully in eChrono (with an 18/2 sorc/monk) as well.

[Kmnh]

I love the melees crying about casters.

We don't need to nerf dots or wings, we need harder content.

[Matuse]

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

Patent nonsense. Try casting DP on Xy'zzy or epic Crateos. Fully immune, both of them (even after Xy'zzy is made vulnerable by her puppies, DP does absolutely nothing to her).

Clay golems take a fraction of total damage from it.

[Dazalarian]

I love the melees crying about casters.

We don't need to nerf dots or wings, we need harder content.

This is a very fine line to walk, before DOT's were introduced groups were as many people say focused about having for example 2 arcanes, 1 bard, 2-3 divine and 6-7 melee's. By making the quests harder to balance against/for groups with 4 arcane + 4 Divine + 4 whatever you will tilt the groups AND LFM's towards more caster/divine heavy groups cause thats what you need to be able to complete the quest in a smooth way.

Then you get the opposite towards what we had post U9 where the groups consisted of roughly the amount of classes available as Razcar pointed out in his post. How is this better than we had post U9 ?

Cheers,
-Daz

[gloopygloop]

Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

Craetos