Give Mobs a Save Against the DOTS

[Khurse]

I'll start this with the standard admission that yes I play casters, and the DOTs (as they stand) are really screwing up game balance.

I'll make my second point by saying I like the idea of the dots,making them stacking was cool, making them have NO save remains one of the most questionable game "balance" choices I've seen.

While being amongst the most powerful and SP effective damage dealing spells in the game, they have en equal effectiveness for those casters who dump their primary casting stat,and those who do not.

They (and really they alone) are what is causing the "boss kiting" method to cause the concerns it is seeing from the Devs on Lammania. Blade Barriers are saved against. The Dots are not.
Please note Devs, it is not really the wings that cause this issue, it's the DOTs.

This is one of the choices that make me question whether the developers actually play in anything resembling currently accepted "end game" content, or whether they just continually run new toons through the Harbour.
(Or they all play casters)

When my caster (moderately decently elemental specd PM,) can get 3 dots on a target, it does between 3-400 Hp's, and crits in the mid 700's. That's on every tick. Add in a Sorc debuff and it gets insane.

Again, I like the DOT spells, and don't want their damage or the stacking damage nerfed perse, but I really think, simply from a game balance perspective, that the DOT spells should give the mobs a save against them.

[HarveyMilk]

I used to think this. However, I haven't seen cha-dumped str-based water savants taking over the game swinging around esos's... have you? Maybe it isn't really the issue.

[Shade]

Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

Traditionally unresistable elements like force, tends to be rare.. and very low damage. Magic missiles, chain, force misisle, etc.. All very low dmg/dps, because they are unresistable.

Take a look at the new rune arms for example, force and light types are severely reduced compared to elemental.

Then divine punishment comes out - no save, unresistable element.. And angel of vengeance gets huge bonuses to boost it to not only eqaul levels of the sorcerer equivalens, but even beyond them if they can manage to stack there light vulnerability debuff enough times.

It starts to bring them not to levels where they can contribute something, but levels where they nearly match the top DPS melee clases that have to sacrifice a ton to get there.. While the fvs needs only a simple potentcy item and to press 1 button every 15 seconds.

And for a class with such incredible power in other areas, putting them up at those levels of DPS just isn't balanced.

I'd go furhter on DP changes myself then just a reflex save for half.. I'd drop them to 1d6 +1 per two casters levels.
3 stack would end up being 3d6+30 damage, which is still very powerful for unresistable type.. But not the insane current 3d6+60 damage it deals. (In boosted terms, that means upwards of 2000 per crit tic on debuffed foes)

[The_Brave2]

Adding a save to the dots would have to be a will save, and the duration of the DoTs would have to be increased, loosing a tripple stack because of the mob rolling a 20 seems ridiculous.

However, my argument is that DoTs are only usefull on boss fights, and casters have no other real SP efficient option to DPS, adding a save will effectively just lower the DPS by 50% for everyone since boss's saves are high enough that it will be a near impossible feat to land a full power dot, effectively making dump stat the same as non dump stat. Granted I do not have the numbers here, but the save would most likely be a fort save, meaning very low success rate.

that being said, dump stat casters are not the problem here, dump stat casters usually multiclass and only take about 12 levels of a caster, meaning that they only get 12d6 instead of the full 20d6 a full wiz/sorc would get, not to mention the sorc elemental lines and gear that raises caster level on damage spells.

Just my take on it. personally I dont think DoT's should be changed at all.

Edit: This post is only relivent for wizard/Sorc DoT's. Divine Punishment needs to be changed so that you need to actually have wisdom.

[mystafyi]

Horrible AI is what is screwing up things...

If someone is shooting at you with a gun, will you chase him down all the while getting shot till dead????

There is a mechanic already in the game to solve this issue. Harry occasionally summons you next to him. just apply this effect to all raid bosses... if you get agro he pulls you to him over and over till you lose agro, kill the boss or you die.

Simple easy fix to kiting/dots.

[The_Brave2]

Horrible AI is what is screwing up things...

If someone is shooting at you with a gun, will you chase him down all the while getting shot till dead????

There is a mechanic already in the game to solve this issue. Harry occasionally summons you next to him. just apply this effect to all raid bosses... if you get agro he pulls you to him over and over till you lose agro, kill the boss or you die.

Simple easy fix to kiting/dots.

the problem isnt only with kiting with dots, its that a mele FVS can tank, out DPS the rest of the party while healing himself.

[mystafyi]

the problem isnt only with kiting with dots, its that a mele FVS can tank, out DPS the rest of the party while healing himself.

you are talking about a fully epic geared out esos weilding WF FVS..... so the devs must balance the game against the upper 1% of the population??

[HarveyMilk]

We had a robust debate about this about 4 months ago or so? Maybe longer.

Anyway, the conclusion I came to was that it isn't worth nerfing the caster divines just because melee wf FvS is so powerful. And with all the other U9 spell changes, including firewall and blade barrier duration nerfs, the dots are fine. They're the most sp efficient spells now, and it makes sense that they're single target and high damage (rather than the king of dps that firewall was for so many years).

So, no, don't add saves to the dots. Add light resistant enemies. And add enemies that are more magic resistant in general, without the blanket immunity that is mantle.

[FrozenNova]

No save on initial cast.
Every ten seconds (cooldown), make an appropriate save or decrease the tier level by one.
Hence, if you can't consistently beat their saves, you're going to stay at tier 2 - or if you have junk dc's, tier 1.
I think something like this would be worth considering.

DC contrasts between classes will be hard to manage though. Sorcs and wizards not so much, since sorcs usually take evocation focus - but divines will be a distance behind, while the combined +4 evocation dc from wizard and 3x sorc past life would be made too overbearing.

[Xenostrata]

you are talking about a fully epic geared out esos weilding WF FVS..... so the devs must balance the game against the upper 1% of the population??

I think he was referring to the wis-dumped soul survivors that can out dps everything other than an arcane by stacking DP and swinging in between casts.

I agree that DP should be given a save (or - how about this - spell pen) to prevent non-offensive-casting specced divines from using the single best offensive spell to full effect.

[DrNuegebauer]

This is a bit overstated.

It takes a bit of time to triple stack the DoT, during which time the dps is lower. Once it's stacked, all well and good - but when you run with good melee, the sorc doesn't steal his agro with all his dots and aoes going.


People need to make better melees.

[arjiwan]

Or, still has no Save but base the damage on your Casting Stat?

Like Wisdom for Divine Punishment. The higher the wisdom, the stronger the damage is.

Fixes the dump stat melees problem.

[Jiirix]

DDO before the new Dots: Only 1-2 arcane and 2-3 divine per raid. "Sry, can't take you with us, we have already one arcane/two divine."
DDO after the new Dots: Even Pug Raids are getting used to take along the first 12 hits. No more endless waiting for the "must have" setup. "There is a 5th wizzie applying. - Take him, they can carry their weight."
Personally I like the new flexibility better.

That was about raids. Now to "They can solo everything with these Dots.": DDO is a group game for me, whether a class has advantages in solo play or not is important to me like PVP. The DOTs made it easier for a lot of players to get into groups and that’s a nice thing imho.

Have Fun, Jiirix.

[Hikup]

well stated Jiirix, +1

[Dandonk]

"There is a 5th wizzie applying. - Take him, they can carry their wight."

Ah, it's a PM then?



Sorry, couldn't resist

[Jiirix]

Ah, it's a PM then?



Sorry, couldn't resist

This is one of the nerf DOTs threads, I am sure you will find lots of nerf PM threads too.

[Dandonk]

This is one of the nerf DOTs threads, I am sure you will find lots of nerf PM threads too.

Yes, but I was referring to the fact that the wizzie in question was "carrying his WIGHT".

Again, I apologize

[Hephaistor]

Yes, but I was referring to the fact that the wizzie in question was "carrying his WIGHT".

Again, I apologize

Ok, now I got it... weight=Gewicht, wight=wicht. I am sure they can even carry two, if they hadn't dumped STR.

[Camarde]

DDO before the new Dots: Only 1-2 arcane and 2-3 divine per raid. "Sry, can't take you with us, we have allready one arcarne/two divine."
DDO after the new Dots: Even Pug Raids are getting used to take along the first 12 hits. No more endless waiting for the "must have" setup. "There is a 5th wizzie applying. - Take him, they can carry their wight."
Personally I like the new flexibility better.

That was about raids. Now to "They can solo everything with these Dots.": DDO is a group game for me, whether a class has advantages in solo play or not is important to me like PVP. The DOTs made it easier for a lot of players to get into groups and thats a nice thing imho.

Have Fun, Jiirix.

+1
And stop to call for nerf.

[Jiirix]

I tought I got reped for a clever comment, but it was for a stupid typo Nevermind, I am sure they can carry those too.

Do you remember how much fun it was to play evocation archmages? Then came the nerf and was anybody feeling better afterwards?