Give Mobs a Save Against the DOTS

[Emili]

Or back to the Original Post, Is Divine Power Over Powered?

Went and hit up the portal in Aussircaex's Valley with Divine Power and killed it in a bit over 90 seconds.

Three stacked ticks hovered at about 360 - 380 which fits with the notion that Brilliance stacks with enhancments as described by sirgog here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252161

1 stack
---------------------
23.5 - Average Base Damage
2.5 - Maximized, Empowered
2.15 - Smiting, Brilliance
3 - 3 stacks
---------------------
378 per tick = 190 dps

I'll post the combat log later as it's at home and I'm at work.

190 dps suggests I should take the 12000 hp portal down in 63 seconds but it takes times to ramp up to the spell and there's the 10/- dr.

Just looking at my 90 second time, it's about 1/3 of the best times posted in Shade's DPS 2 Challenge
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

So, is doing 1/3 the DPS of a melee character overpowered?

Shhh... do not let Shade know you beat out his Evocation Archmage by nineteen seconds.

[Emili]

Obviously the FvS is just going to stand there doing nothing else, in order to let the barb maintain his lead...

Actually, the FvS will have to "fight" toe to toe more often when they get agro... Leap of Faith is changing to cost more mana and have increased cooldown after few uses. The dev's intended it as an escape ability and not to be used as a tactic.

[Seamonkeysix]

Is that supposed to be a joke? You measure against a world-champion best-ever zero-fort non-AC melee DPS as a way to show that Divine Punishment isn't too great?

To answer your question: Yes, having 1/3rd of such a peak possible melee DPS from just casting the same long-range spell a few times a minute is seriously overpowered.

So in your mind, divines should just stay in the back and heal the party? I am not with you on this one, Angelus. Even if the spell does do 1/3 of the DPS of a melee toon, it doesn't even scratch the surface of what arcane casters can do. Other than Divine Punishment, divines really don't have a reliable spell that can add to party DPS that doesn't completely inhibit their ability to heal as far as spell points.

DoTs, specifically Divine Punishment, is a good thing. It helps the party deal with high HP bosses quicker. This allows for less overall resource uses by the FvS and Cleric. It is fun. These things combined make healing a lot more attractive than it used to be. Getting a healer has typically been the most difficult spot to fill in any party. As far as I am concerned, DP isn't overpowered and attracts people to the divine classes. More clerics and FvS is a good thing. It equals more parties and LFMs. That equals more choices and more players.

[ayspam]

/very much signed, you want full damage on DOTS do something for it. Simply cant stand blob builds.

[gloopygloop]

/very much signed, you want full damage on DOTS do something for it. Simply cant stand blob builds.

If you simply can't stand blob builds, then I'm guessing that you don't like Blade Barrier, Searing Light, Holy Aura, Polar Ray or a host of other spells.

[ayspam]

If you simply can't stand blob builds, then I'm guessing that you don't like Blade Barrier, Searing Light, Holy Aura, Polar Ray or a host of other spells.

I dont see where you re coming from... I love blade barrier but also I didnt dump wisdom, and can actually very reliably hit mobs for full damage.

Blob = a character who focuses on lots of hit points, dumps main casting stat, has no meaningful DC whatsoever, relies solely on no save spells, DOTS and shieldblocking.

Dont know where holy aura and searing light come into the picture.

I m just suggesting that just like blade barrier fireball DBF or any other spell that has a save should be applied to DOTs aswell. If you want them to be reliable then build for it. Standing in place blocking and dotting is no challenge imho. The save wouldnt have to be too high, a 'blob' would have an apprx 20 evocation DC, a decently geared and built evoker be it FvS cleric, sorc, wiz would have mid 30s to mid 40s. So if the save we re to be between 30-35, that should be more then enoug to inspire people to not dump main casting stat completely.

Example:

LoB has evasion, very good evasion cant be cursed. He saves on 45 DC blade barriers regularly, so I take it he ll save on any other evocation spell with that DC, yet one could still stand there and DOT? Why? The problem isnt wing kiting, the main problem are the DOTs and how they re implemented.

I m cutting the tree from underneath me, as I play caster as mains, but DOTs need some thought. Nerfing wings isnt the solution.

[gloopygloop]

I dont see where you re coming from... I love blade barrier but also I didnt dump wisdom, and can actually very reliably hit mobs for full damage.

Blob = a character who focuses on lots of hit points, dumps main casting stat, has no meaningful DC whatsoever, relies solely on no save spells, DOTS and shieldblocking.

My FvS has lots of HP, dumped his main casting stat (I can get all the way up to a 16 with ship buffs, my +2 Tome and my Concordant Opposition item), has no meaningful DC whatsoever and relies solely on no save spells, Blade Barriers and a great big chunk of metal that he swings in front of himself. Every once in a while, I get a big number on my Blade Barrier when something rolls a 1 on its save, but I can kill everything that you can kill even with my half strength BB. It just takes a little longer. And it doesn't even take *that* much longer than a max Wis Cleric's BB because of the bonus that I get to untyped damage.

I also use Divine Punishment against the mountains of HP that we get as red/purple named bosses, but it's honestly just not worth casting on just about else because it takes over 20 seconds to triple stack and everything that isn't a big mountain of HP is already dead by the time those 20 seconds go by. The only trash that I cast DP on are Ogre Mages because the DoT keeps ticking when they go invisible, so I can DP an Ogre Mage and then beat down one of his Ogre bodyguards while the Mage slowly dies. Sleeping Dust is much less annoying with DP.

Dont know where holy aura and searing light come into the picture.

Holy Aura is a no-save spell that blinds all enemies in its AoE.
Searing Light is a no-save damage ray that I use to smash enemy faces in with photons of JUSTICE!

I m just suggesting that just like blade barrier fireball DBF or any other spell that has a save should be applied to DOTs aswell. If you want them to be reliable then build for it. Standing in place blocking and dotting is no challenge imho. The save wouldnt have to be too high, a 'blob' would have an apprx 20 evocation DC, a decently geared and built evoker be it FvS cleric, sorc, wiz would have mid 30s to mid 40s. So if the save we re to be between 30-35, that should be more then enoug to inspire people to not dump main casting stat completely.

Except that's now how saves actually work in DDO. Spells in DDO offer either a Fort save or a Reflex save or a Will save. If you add a save to the DoTs, then even most max-Wis Clerics and FvS will see the challenging Red and Purple bosses making their saves most of the time because those bosses tend to have good saves.

Example:

LoB has evasion, very good evasion cant be cursed. He saves on 45 DC blade barriers regularly, so I take it he ll save on any other evocation spell with that DC, yet one could still stand there and DOT? Why? The problem isnt wing kiting, the main problem are the DOTs and how they re implemented.

I m cutting the tree from underneath me, as I play caster as mains, but DOTs need some thought. Nerfing wings isnt the solution.

If he saves on 45 DC Blade Barriers regularly, then he'll also save on 45 DC DoTs regularly too. The problem with adding a save is that even the most high DC Clerics and FvS will be just as screwed as the Wis dump stat melee FvS build unless you're attacking someone like Harry who was already a joke even before the DoTs.

[ayspam]

My FvS has lots of HP, dumped his main casting stat (I can get all the way up to a 16 with ship buffs, my +2 Tome and my Concordant Opposition item), has no meaningful DC whatsoever and relies solely on no save spells, Blade Barriers and a great big chunk of metal that he swings in front of himself. Every once in a while, I get a big number on my Blade Barrier when something rolls a 1 on its save, but I can kill everything that you can kill even with my half strength BB. It just takes a little longer. And it doesn't even take *that* much longer than a max Wis Cleric's BB because of the bonus that I get to untyped damage.

I also use Divine Punishment against the mountains of HP that we get as red/purple named bosses, but it's honestly just not worth casting on just about else because it takes over 20 seconds to triple stack and everything that isn't a big mountain of HP is already dead by the time those 20 seconds go by. The only trash that I cast DP on are Ogre Mages because the DoT keeps ticking when they go invisible, so I can DP an Ogre Mage and then beat down one of his Ogre bodyguards while the Mage slowly dies. Sleeping Dust is much less annoying with DP.




Holy Aura is a no-save spell that blinds all enemies in its AoE.
Searing Light is a no-save damage ray that I use to smash enemy faces in with photons of JUSTICE!



Except that's now how saves actually work in DDO. Spells in DDO offer either a Fort save or a Reflex save or a Will save. If you add a save to the DoTs, then even most max-Wis Clerics and FvS will see the challenging Red and Purple bosses making their saves most of the time because those bosses tend to have good saves.



If he saves on 45 DC Blade Barriers regularly, then he'll also save on 45 DC DoTs regularly too. The problem with adding a save is that even the most high DC Clerics and FvS will be just as screwed as the Wis dump stat melee FvS build unless you're attacking someone like Harry who was already a joke even before the DoTs.

This is the reason why I wrote that DOTs shouldnt have a sky high save, main stat based casters would still get through reliably, and mellee types have their weapons to compensate for the loss in saved DOTs. Also I didnt say no dmg DOTs, I suggested save for half. Might have forgotten that to write that, I m too hungover, but anyway.

[Dazalarian]

LoB has evasion, very good evasion cant be cursed. He saves on 45 DC blade barriers regularly, so I take it he ll save on any other evocation spell with that DC, yet one could still stand there and DOT? Why? The problem isnt wing kiting, the main problem are the DOTs and how they re implemented.

I m cutting the tree from underneath me, as I play caster as mains, but DOTs need some thought. Nerfing wings isnt the solution.

^ This

Cheers,
-Daz

[Malky]

Or back to the Original Post, Is Divine Power Over Powered?

Went and hit up the portal in Aussircaex's Valley with Divine Power and killed it in a bit over 90 seconds.

Three stacked ticks hovered at about 360 - 380 which fits with the notion that Brilliance stacks with enhancments as described by sirgog here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252161

1 stack
---------------------
23.5 - Average Base Damage
2.5 - Maximized, Empowered
2.15 - Smiting, Brilliance
3 - 3 stacks
---------------------
378 per tick = 190 dps

I'll post the combat log later as it's at home and I'm at work.

190 dps suggests I should take the 12000 hp portal down in 63 seconds but it takes times to ramp up to the spell and there's the 10/- dr.

Just looking at my 90 second time, it's about 1/3 of the best times posted in Shade's DPS 2 Challenge
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

So, is doing 1/3 the DPS of a melee character overpowered?

To be honest, the average dps would look more like :

378.9375 x (1+1.75x0.18) = 498 /tick average, FvS spells can crit too

Say the target is hitting your champion, with 20s curse duration after u11 (i think) he will probably have a 10% vulnerability most of (if not all) the time.

498x1.1=548 / tick, or 274 dps

About half of what the best melees push out on sobrien.

Ahhh numb3rs

[Feralthyrtiaq]

/not signed at all

Granted most of yall know all this.

But...

Casters of all types get a mix of spells. Some require saves, some don't, some require spell pen checks and some don't.

I think that FVS using Wis for Spell DC is a load of horse s as well.

Wiz=Int=SP and Spell DC Mod
Sorc=Cha=Sp and Spell DC Mod
Cleric=Wis=Sp and Spell DC Mod

You'd think that logically FVS would follow like sort but with divine spells, but it doesn't instead...

FVS=Cha for Sp and Wis for Spell DC Mod...but get PrE Enhancements to Damage for Spells and Melee Enh that kinda balance out having to split the Caster Stat of the Class between 2 Stats.

And yall want more limitations put on the class with saves to an awesome spell.

Limitations based on your playstyle and opinions?

Wings are getting f-d with, f with spell saves w/e

really really not signed...

hate the idea...

[Darkrok]

I tought I got reped for a clever comment, but it was for a stupid typo Nevermind, I am sure they can carry those too.

Do you remember how much fun it was to play evocation archmages? Then came the nerf and was anybody feeling better afterwards?

I'd still have my evo AM on his first life if they hadn't unnecessarily nerfed him. He wasn't dominating content...nowhere near as powerful as PM's were THEN (let alone now) but it was a fun build. Now...meh.

[MrTops]

Is that supposed to be a joke? You measure against a world-champion best-ever zero-fort non-AC melee DPS as a way to show that Divine Punishment isn't too great?

To answer your question: Yes, having 1/3rd of such a peak possible melee DPS from just casting the same long-range spell a few times a minute is seriously overpowered.

Where is it written that melee dps should be greater than caster dps?

I'd have thought, just as a flavor thing, casters should be able to beat melee dps until their spell points run out (since melee has no spell point cost involved).

[Razcar]

Where is it written that melee dps should be greater than caster dps?

It's more a risk versus reward thing. A melee has to be in close range to do his DPS. That means the monster will hit him back, and places him at risk of dying.

A caster's DPS is ranged. That means there's less risk involved - the monster has trouble damaging the caster when he's far away and on the move.

It makes sense that the more you risk, the greater the rewards should be. Higher risk, more damage. That is not the case now though. It is the opposite.

[Perspicacity]

It's more a risk versus reward thing. A melee has to be in close range to do his DPS. That means the monster will hit him back, and places him at risk of dying.

A caster's DPS is ranged. That means there's less risk involved - the monster has trouble damaging the caster when he's far away and on the move.

It makes sense that the more you risk, the greater the rewards should be. Higher risk, more damage. That is not the case now though. It is the opposite.

Casters are generally smarter than melees so it only makes sense that they would have developed the better strategy. Messing with casters undermines inherent barbarian/paladin stupidity.

[Zerkul]

I agree on the save for the DOTs spells. I've already suggested it more than once probably, the only thing i ask is to carefully think about the right save to give to each DOT spell. For example a save i would absolutely exclude is will-save type. Will-saves are related to the ability of a taget to use their mind "fortitude" to resist against some mental related abilities: mind whip, charms, holds can be resisted with willsave, if something attacks the subjects mind it has to have a will-save.

DOTs do not attack minds so they should't have will-saves at all, but instead should have reflex or fortitude saves. For example electrical DOTs can have a reflex save while ice based DOTs can have a fortitude one or bot can have reflex. You can put a save at start of the DOT to avoid it or you can give a save against each tick of damage to halve it. A balance between resonable and game mechanics has to be achieved in order to make DOTs good spells, not over-powered, but to not over-nerf them.



Another good idea, instead of giving a save to DOTs is to make them missile type like the melf arrow: this way you give target the possibility to dodge it in time if moving but you do not nerf the DOT damage.

[Templarion]

How about making mobs cast well boosted DoTs without saves against players, too? Like every caster from level 7 would be casting just dots of different damage source on players?

Rogue:"Caster! Kill it! Kill the caster! ow ow ow ow..."
Fighter: "I'm killing it ! I'm killing it! It's dead! Oh yeah... but ow... ow ow... **** dot... ow ow ow..."
Cleric: "Ow, ow, ow, ow... I am out of sp guys, ****... ow, ow, ow, ow"

That would be awesome.

[Razcar]

Casters are generally smarter than melees so it only makes sense that they would have developed the better strategy. Messing with casters undermines inherent barbarian/paladin stupidity.

That is of course true. But only for Wizards

[licho]

How about making mobs cast well boosted DoTs without saves against players, too? Like every caster from level 7 would be casting just dots of different damage source on players?

Rogue:"Caster! Kill it! Kill the caster! ow ow ow ow..."
Fighter: "I'm killing it ! I'm killing it! It's dead! Oh yeah... but ow... ow ow... **** dot... ow ow ow..."
Cleric: "Ow, ow, ow, ow... I am out of sp guys, ****... ow, ow, ow, ow"

That would be awesome.

Agree, mobs should stop be gimp and learn to play.
I has a image of encounter when adventurers enter the room and then...
Zzzzap.
Maximaze EMpower Full Manipulacion Line with Superior Spark Lightingball.

Dont you think it would be cool?

[Shade]

Needs more comments..

When I first saw the dots.. I was all for them. They sounded like a great way to allow arcanes contribute on boss fights.

And indeed that became the case.

But the major issue here is:
Everyone arcane became a clone during boss battles.

Want to boss DPS pre U9: Be an extremely smart well geared player with top gear and use a complex variety of spells based on the bosses weaknesses. It was possible, but oh so difficult.

Post U9?
Push button 1 and 2 every 15 seconds. Or just set up macro and go afk. It doesn't matter how poor your stats are, 22 int, 48 int, 18 charima or 46 charisma.. It doesn't matter if you have an epic abishai set, the damage is the same for everyone. It destroys the spirit of progression and reduces a casters role in boss DPS fights to "click 2 buttons, and if your REAL PRO, use 2 clickies as well"
Stats? Dont matter.

So while I don't feel the DPS output of Niacs biting cold + Eladars stacked on most bosses is too much for the highest end of gameplay, I do feel its too much for the basic casual - just hit lvl20 fresh off the boat caster.

Adding a save will help rectify that. I kinda think casters should get another spell like improved sunder does now to help reduce the reflex save of bosses tho:
Maybe a will save type effect like solid fog, but less intrusive, and stackable.. At a high SP cost, high druation and slow cast animation so its mainly effective on bosses.

EG: Ucanny un-dodging: Will save to negate, SR applies, Lasts 6 seconds per caster level, -1 penalty to reflex saves. Stacks up to 10 times. Standard cooldown (couple seconds).
Perhaps lvl6 arcane since there arent many great lvl6 debuffs.
30SP.

Not per-caster like dots, so several good DC casters could stack this up in tandem.

So for 300 SP, along with strong enough DC/Spell pen, you can ensure that your dots lands very reliably for 2 minutes, or another 2min for 30 more sp, as that will reset duration.

Tho again as I said about Divine punishment:
No..
Just no.
Divines are not meant to have this kind of UNRESISTALBE DPS. Giving everything to one class just results in unbalance and unfun.