Give Mobs a Save Against the DOTS

[simo0208]

To simplify I'm just going to look at base damage, no metamagics or other enhancements.

Polar Ray has average base of 100 per cast, assuming caster level 20.
------------------------
1d3 + 3 per level = (2 + 3) * 20 = 100 on average

Cool down is six seconds so base dps is 100/6 or 16.6 dps


Divine Punishment has and average base of 188 per cast, assuming caster level 20.
------------------------
1d6 + 1 per level = (3.5 + 20) * 8 ticks = 188

That's delivered over 16 seconds so a single cast is 188/16 or 11.75 dps.

To look at how Divine Punishment stacks I've represented the 'ticks' as numbers down the page, each column is one cast. Since the cooldown is 10 seconds subsequent casts begin at the 10 second tick.

0
2
4
6
8
10__0
12__2
14__4
16__6
____8
____10__0
____12__2
____14__4
____16__6
________8
________10
________12
________14
________16

Looking at this it's obvious that it's not possible for a single caster to stack the spell 3 times. In fact, since the spell does no damage on the zero tick and there's a gap at the 8 tick the best you can get is an effective stacking of 6 out of 8 ticks, or 1.75.

That means the best base dps a single caster can do (188 * 1.75)/16 = 20.5 dps.

I'm curious now why the spell description says may be stacked 3 times when it is obviously not possible for a single caster to do that?

Or am I missing something fundamental about the cooldown?

I don't think the stacking bit has a timer on it. I've hit things with triple DP on my cleric by myself.

[MrTops]

nice miss on that small point in the mathhammer system btw- Shade needs to stand beside the thing he's hitting, I can stand across the room) that it's -imho- a little over the top

I didn't do anything other take a look at the claim that Divine Punishment provided dumpstat casters with DPS equivalent to melees.

I don't think I made any other statements or recommendations.

And in the game I cast and heal on my FvS while attacking with melee weapons

[Emili]

you are talking about a fully epic geared out esos weilding WF FVS..... so the devs must balance the game against the upper 1% of the population??

You do not need be extremeley decked out on a FvS (sure it helps more)... but just geared to par with the rest of the group. i.e. if I geared my FvS to what my barbarian, fighter or pally or even ranger (Einin) I'd have no issue tanking Sulu or possibly Horoth if I set my mind on adjusting it out with the FvS... as it stands I melee them on the back with the FvS... so is no doubt in my mind if I geared the thing up it would more than suffice.

------------------------------------

So which is it Barbs suck at being able to solo and fend for themselves

Or barbs are overpowered and need to be smacked with the nurf hammer?

Soling Elite Sins on a barb, fighter or any real heavy melee is in itself more about the player and not the class... it's all about knowing how to play that character well. I've solo'd sins elite on every class all it comes down to is knowing the quest and knowing the character's limits. Is a fact though that what we can do alone with such melee classes we can do at least twice as well with arcane/divine bars...

... And there I was on Abby (Abaigeal 18/2 Bard/fighter) my elven warchanter in elite sins (yes, you read that right an elven bard can solo sins, Even my spell singer has done so), Anyway Draz and Hordo send tell - hey Missy may we join you? Well sure... but I had already picked up the book cleared past the first trap, not much further to the ladder... they join and course I the spawn in front slipped my mind but I DD back... we make our way back a little past the point I was prior to where they joined when I overestimated my scope when we pulled a little more than we could chew off given our current situation... *fail* ...

Two days later I took her back in on elite and got it done... Yugos my incentive. Really the difference here is in knowing how to manage yourself, a little luck in dice and when you do not have to second guess other's reactions the situation is controlable.

Hey would you like to solo edq1 alone? A good PM or AoV is much easier to manage for the task than any typical melee built thingy...

Casters are way overpowered even without dots, At lv 19, my first try on Sin elite was 10 min, could narrow it down to 7 min for repeating effort, and my normal runs are only 4 min, every trash goes down in a single AoE spell.
With 600+ hp at lv20, I always end up tanking the Conjoined Abishai in Chrono with dots.
I would say dots should be nerfed.

... because efficiency is entirely in blue bar realms, versitility, utility, range, distance and aoe... zip past and clear that which follows behind along with the new you've just agro'd. Control them and KILL them in masses.

Spells always had that power ... even before u9 or dots I've seen them rip down Harry, sulu and other bosses in mostly blue-bar groups.

People assume shroud's ole typical 1 or 2 caster pick by raid leaders to be of some significance... well in a way it was, You see portals of part one the melee were reliable in eliminating even with some gimps tossed in... today can't say much to that.

A good caster shows up well, a bad caster shows up very bad, on the flip side a good melee show proven adequate ... yes adequate is all and a bad melee really does not poise so much an issue at all as long as one other melee exist in the group, your reaction is "meh".

A bad caster is actually more of a liability than a bad melee is in that sense. That is a fact. If you have a bad melee you just think oh well - let him die, what he contributed a little but is not up to snuff... chances are though with a bad caster though, you looked at that blue bar and saw that as scope of promise, a party resource, and quite possibly a big difference in taxing the other blue bars of the group. A bad caster can be far more dangerous too... like the bowstring happy ranger.

[MrTops]

I don't think the stacking bit has a timer on it. I've hit things with triple DP on my cleric by myself.

Hmmmm.....

I'll head out to the portal in Aussircaex's Valley tonight and see if I can get 3 to stack on the portal, but I can't see how that's possible with a 10 second cool down and a 16 second duration.

I'm at work so can't do anything for another 8 hours or so.

[Chette]

/signed

It's not as much an issue with the arcane ones, as probably 99% of arcane casters are DC casters, particularly with the U9 changes to insta kill spells. It is a huge issue though with divine punishment. Divines are probably about 50:50 DC casters vs melee divines. Maybe 60:40, I dunno, you gotta factor lame healbots into that somewhere. But the point is that there are a large fraction of divines with 8 base wisdom. Yet they get the exact same damage from divine punishment as a a caster with 40+ wisdom. Throw that on top of the fantstic melee damage they can do, and it's just overpowering compared to the abilities of a DC divine caster.

[gloopygloop]

Looking at this it's obvious that it's not possible for a single caster to stack the spell 3 times.


I'm curious now why the spell description says may be stacked 3 times when it is obviously not possible for a single caster to do that?

Or am I missing something fundamental about the cooldown?

You are missing something fundamental about the cooldown. When you first cast the spell, you get a single effect for the regular damage. The spell lasts for 16 seconds and does 0 damage on "tick 0". The spell's cooldown is 10 seconds, so you want to cast again after that 10 seconds and before the 16 seconds expire. If you do that, you get a new 16 seconds of effect for your double stack.

When you get the third casting 21 or 22 seconds after the first, you will then have a triple stack of DP.

In other words, the first and second casting get to continue as long as you keep re-casting before the 16 seconds expire.

Try casting it while you are looking at your target's list of buffs/debuffs/effects. You'll see the DP icon and then you'll see "DP 2" and "DP 3" replace that original DP icon as you double and triple stack it.

[Emili]

You are missing something fundamental about the cooldown. When you first cast the spell, you get a single effect for the regular damage. The spell lasts for 16 seconds and does 0 damage on "tick 0". The spell's cooldown is 10 seconds, so you want to cast again after that 10 seconds and before the 16 seconds expire. If you do that, you get a new 16 seconds of effect for your double stack.

When you get the third casting 21 or 22 seconds after the first, you will then have a triple stack of DP.

In other words, the first and second casting get to continue as long as you keep re-casting before the 16 seconds expire.

Try casting it while you are looking at your target's list of buffs/debuffs/effects. You'll see the DP icon and then you'll see "DP 2" and "DP 3" replace that original DP icon as you double and triple stack it.

Yes that's how it works... I triple stack all the time on bosses when they're firm.

[Seamonkeysix]

/signed

It's not as much an issue with the arcane ones, as probably 99% of arcane casters are DC casters, particularly with the U9 changes to insta kill spells. It is a huge issue though with divine punishment. Divines are probably about 50:50 DC casters vs melee divines. Maybe 60:40, I dunno, you gotta factor lame healbots into that somewhere. But the point is that there are a large fraction of divines with 8 base wisdom. Yet they get the exact same damage from divine punishment as a a caster with 40+ wisdom. Throw that on top of the fantstic melee damage they can do, and it's just overpowering compared to the abilities of a DC divine caster.

Wow. Somebody with a melee focused bard that doesn't get DoTs /signing this. Weird.

[MrTops]

You are missing something fundamental about the cooldown. When you first cast the spell, you get a single effect for the regular damage. The spell lasts for 16 seconds and does 0 damage on "tick 0". The spell's cooldown is 10 seconds, so you want to cast again after that 10 seconds and before the 16 seconds expire. If you do that, you get a new 16 seconds of effect for your double stack.

When you get the third casting 21 or 22 seconds after the first, you will then have a triple stack of DP.

In other words, the first and second casting get to continue as long as you keep re-casting before the 16 seconds expire.

Try casting it while you are looking at your target's list of buffs/debuffs/effects. You'll see the DP icon and then you'll see "DP 2" and "DP 3" replace that original DP icon as you double and triple stack it.

So it works like the Awaken Elemental Weakness curse then?

That does make some difference. It effectively cuts the SP per damage cost by 1/3 if you keep the three spells stacked.

It also simplifies dps calculations since you can just work with damage per tick for three stacked casts and forget everything else.

23.5 - Average Base Damage
3.25 - Maximized, Empowered, Radiance
1.4 - Smiting
3 - stacks
2 - 5 stack condemnation
---------------------------------
641 not critical tick

Add in critical damage (2.75 critical multiplier with Prayer and Archmage set)
----------------------------------
(641 * 0.82) + (641 * 0.18 * 2.75) = 843 average per tick

Divide by 2 seconds per tick and you get 421 dps.

So, in that case you do get melee equivalent dps assuming you have 5 stacking condemnations. If you have no condemnations stacked, likely if you're kiting solo you get a more lackluster 210 dps

Thanks for pointing this out gloopygloop.

In no way did I intend to try and spread any misinformation. I'll head out to the portal in the valley tonight to confirm this for myself.

[justagame]

/signed

It's not as much an issue with the arcane ones, as probably 99% of arcane casters are DC casters, particularly with the U9 changes to insta kill spells. It is a huge issue though with divine punishment. Divines are probably about 50:50 DC casters vs melee divines. Maybe 60:40, I dunno, you gotta factor lame healbots into that somewhere. But the point is that there are a large fraction of divines with 8 base wisdom. Yet they get the exact same damage from divine punishment as a a caster with 40+ wisdom. Throw that on top of the fantstic melee damage they can do, and it's just overpowering compared to the abilities of a DC divine caster.

Given that it's mainly used on bosses, today's endgame bosses have saves so high that even your standard max-wisdom divine caster is still going to have his damage cut in half. The melees will still do just as much damage, only everybody's is going get cut in half.

Take a 'normal' wisdom-focused caster FVS:

wis = 18 + 5 levels + 1 human + 2 enh + 3 tome + 6 item + 3 exceptional = 38. That's a solid score.

With heighten, a spell focus feat, and let's say a napkin or other +1 item:
DC = 10 + 9 (heighten) + 14 (wisdom) + 1 feat + 1 item = 35.

What endgame boss is going to have a problem with that save? Not many. So, in the name of reigning in that ESOS-wielding WF melee FVS, you're gonna nerf the spell for virtually everybody.

[Seamonkeysix]

I agreed with you so much I posted twice!

[Seamonkeysix]

Given that it's mainly used on bosses, today's endgame bosses have saves so high that even your standard max-wisdom divine caster is still going to have his damage cut in half. The melees will still do just as much damage, only everybody's is going get cut in half.

Take a 'normal' wisdom-focused caster FVS:

wis = 18 + 5 levels + 1 human + 2 enh + 3 tome + 6 item + 3 exceptional = 38. That's a solid score.

With heighten, a spell focus feat, and let's say a napkin or other +1 item:
DC = 10 + 9 (heighten) + 14 (wisdom) + 1 feat + 1 item = 35.

What endgame boss is going to have a problem with that save? Not many. So, in the name of reigning in that ESOS-wielding WF melee FVS, you're gonna nerf the spell for virtually everybody.

Exactly. FvS already are splitting their wisdom and charisma scores. Basically what is being suggested is "stick it to the FvS's with divine punishment". I have a WF FvS. I like the Divine Punishment spell, but the truth is, that in Epics and even in ToD, I spend most of my time worrying about keeping everyone else alive. I get a little bit of button smashing fun in by tossing a Divine Punishment from time to time, as my archon goes "pew pew". At the end of most quests, I am near the bottom in kills.

I also have a drow Pale Master...who can instakill anything in the game that isn't red or purple named. I am nearly always at the top of kills. DoTs are not the reason.

It's been said again and again, DoTs are a way to mitigate the insane amount of HP that endgame bosses have. Asking to nerf them is just a way of causing your healers to drink more pots to keep you alive in longer end game fights.

Like I said before, what that gets you is less people that want to play healers...why? Because healing gets expensive and no fun to waste resources.

[Khurse]

Exactly. FvS already are splitting their wisdom and charisma scores. Basically what is being suggested is "stick it to the FvS's with divine punishment". I have a WF FvS. I like the Divine Punishment spell, but the truth is, that in Epics and even in ToD, I spend most of my time worrying about keeping everyone else alive. I get a little bit of button smashing fun in by tossing a Divine Punishment from time to time, as my archon goes "pew pew". At the end of most quests, I am near the bottom in kills.

I also have a drow Pale Master...who can instakill anything in the game that isn't red or purple named. I am nearly always at the top of kills. DoTs are not the reason.

It's been said again and again, DoTs are a way to mitigate the insane amount of HP that endgame bosses have. Asking to nerf them is just a way of causing your healers to drink more pots to keep you alive in longer end game fights.

Like I said before, what that gets you is less people that want to play healers...why? Because healing gets expensive and no fun to waste resources.

????

Again, I (the OP) asked for saves vs DOTS across the board, no where did I single out FVS or say that only DP should be nerfed. They should all have a save vs them for half damage.

The argument "no one will play healers" is odd,considering that there were healers around for a few years before the DOTS were even released.

[Xhine]

Have you played with dots? Guess what, they're fun! Many people enjoy the game feel while using dots, and prefer the no save. I have played the new content and the game mechanics pretty much take away the advantages of
Dots.
**They're still necessary but really only till the end of the two new raids.

Please keep dots as they are and update mobs as you seem to be doing.

If you are to add a save to any the dots divine or arcane please come out with the Polar ray version for all the elements + light, also 9th level elemental spells please.

Possible 9th level spells

Earthquake

16 sec duration, ticks off every 2 sec

would work with the acid/force line of damage, do bludgeon damage over time, you could make this a divine spell as well as an arcane. even if you got the save no dr agains bludgeon

Magma eruption

duration instant
fire line of spell enhancements
doesnt count as fire due to the bludgeon of molten rock *untyped damage



Wild lightning strike
duration instant
storm line of spell enhancements
be untyped also due to the massive amount of damage cause by the implosion of the vacuum caused by a true lightning strike (thus causing the sound of thunder)



Geyser
Duration instant
water line of enhancements
Same deal is above, based on the force and bludgeon damage involved.



A light version for divines of a 9th level spell would be awesome also

thanks for the hard work on helping return sorcs to the boss killing beasts they should be, not fail class that is way less dps than an envoker archmage.

[DevHead]

What so many people in this forum fail to realize is their own proficiency with their own toons. Many of us know the class(es) inside and out and can level to 20 with our eyes closed. In the hands of a skilled player, any toon will be OP......especially if you're comparing it to everything else.

Take the same things, put them in the hands of a noob, and nothing is OP. They don't have a veteran's knowledge and experience.

So many people in this forum need to stop complaining about game balance when they are *only* considering their own skill sets and those of other veteran players. Stop basing game design and balance on a specific population of the game; you're missing the point completely.

[Razcar]

Exactly. FvS already are splitting their wisdom and charisma scores. Basically what is being suggested is "stick it to the FvS's with divine punishment". I have a WF FvS. I like the Divine Punishment spell, but the truth is, that in Epics and even in ToD, I spend most of my time worrying about keeping everyone else alive. I get a little bit of button smashing fun in by tossing a Divine Punishment from time to time, as my archon goes "pew pew". At the end of most quests, I am near the bottom in kills.

I also have a drow Pale Master...who can instakill anything in the game that isn't red or purple named. I am nearly always at the top of kills. DoTs are not the reason.

It's been said again and again, DoTs are a way to mitigate the insane amount of HP that endgame bosses have. Asking to nerf them is just a way of causing your healers to drink more pots to keep you alive in longer end game fights.

Like I said before, what that gets you is less people that want to play healers...why? Because healing gets expensive and no fun to waste resources.

You are seeing this the wrong way. It's not that the melee's that are upset about DoT's (I have two FvS's and a lot of melees but I don't care either way) don't want the Divines to do extra damage to the bosses while they heal the party.

Instead I think some are worried that they will become entirely superfluous - just unneeded. You don't need a big ESoS-weilding half-orc barbarian when you have a big ESoS-weilding WF FvS (or a sheild-blocking caster) that does the same job, only better. While needing much less cuddling. And then you can fill out the rest of the party with casters/divines. Why not? They are self-sufficient, self-buffing and self-healing. And do loads of damage.

With the power and ease of DoT's the "old balance" of DDO (tank, healer, dps - which always was weaker in DDO than other MMO's but still there) gets disturbed and you now have less use for "needy" low-defense classes like Barbs and most Fighters. I don't think anyone is being negative towards Divines and Arcanes finishing the raid quicker and easier, but that they don't need anyone else anymore. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad - I like playing divines/casters, and never cared much for classes that need constant diaper changes - but it sure changes the game.

[aerendhil]

Change Divine Punisment from "1d6 +1 per caster level" to "1d6 + WIS modifier + 1 per 2 caster level"

[Dazalarian]

Change Divine Punisment from "1d6 +1 per caster level" to "1d6 + WIS modifier + 1 per 2 caster level"

why not just 1d6 + WIS modifier.

As someone calculated above a decent Divine build has around 38 Wis, with shipbuffs 40, with yugopots 42 and with uber gear you can push it into 44. calculated on 40 Wis you have the exact same damagenumbers as you have today.

That would "solve" the melee vs healer/evoker discussion plus it would benefit the high DC casters.

It wont change the fact that the DOT's are still overpowered.

Someone mentioned that almost all characters are OP in the hands of an expert and I can agree to that to some extent. However, when the OP-factor comes from clicking 1 spell every 10 seconds (2 if yer an arcane) I mean, how skilled do you have to be able to do that? If someone with mad twitch FPS skills can figure out a 7 spell combo which he has to time down to the second while kiting a boss and avoiding trash while he sails to the uber-solo-completion of <whatever raid>, Fine, I bow too you Sir and your supreme skills.

Cheers,
-Daz

[MrTops]

Change Divine Punisment from "1d6 +1 per caster level" to "1d6 + WIS modifier + 1 per 2 caster level"

Brilliant!

I do like that, or a variation thereof, since it rewards maxing out your casting stat and makes a gimped DoT a matter of build choice.

I'm not sure if I think Divine Punishment is overpowered but I'd think if it is changed then this is a good direction (but apply it to arcane DoTs as well).

[Seamonkeysix]

????

Again, I (the OP) asked for saves vs DOTS across the board, no where did I single out FVS or say that only DP should be nerfed. They should all have a save vs them for half damage.

The argument "no one will play healers" is odd,considering that there were healers around for a few years before the DOTS were even released.

I rarely get into debates on the forums. When I do, it usually is about nerfs. When I do decide that something is worth taking a firm stand on, I always check to see who I am debating.

In your case, you have primarily played 2 DPS toons and 1 Wizard in the recent past in your quest log. Wizards have a ton of other ways to impact party DPS, not the least of which I have mentioned several times: instakill spells like Powerword Kill, Finger of Death, ect...

Divines, and specifically FvS, typically do not have a wide variety of damaging spells in their inventories. They are busy keeping the party alive. Having a decent DPS spell option is pretty much new for DDO.

As for my position about whether or not there will be healers around and how long....You don't have to tell me. You can take a look at my join date and figure out that I have been around since this all began. And whether you remember it or not, getting a healer has always been a challenge for the group.

Only recently have I seen an influx of people willing to make healers. Some of them are good, some not so much...but the point is that part of the reason it isn't dreadful to try to find a healer for VoD, ToD, Epics, and so forth is because the developers have taken steps to not relagate them to nanny bots that can only heal and their damage is a joke.

In the case of Divine Punishment, most of the arguments have centered around "Give it a save based on the DCs of the caster". What I am saying is that in the case of favored souls, you don't see a ton of FvS running around with 40 wisdom. This suggestion coming from a min/max caster is even more laughable. My 50 intelligence wizard doesn't mind so much if you put a save on dots. My 26 charisma FvS does.

If DoTs are totally causing a balance issue in the game, I am not seeing it...and I play nearly every day. I have DoTs on my wizard and on my FvS. I think they are a very good addition to DDO, and I don't see that they play a huge role, other than decreasing the time on end-boss fights. Nerfing them is not needed. Asking for a save based on DC is really only punishing a small percentage of the "caster" player base.