Give Mobs a Save Against the DOTS

[Feralthyrtiaq]

I like the current implementation of DoTs in the game just fine.

I like using them with my ...

Palemaster
Heal Specced Cleric
Heal Specced FVS

And REALLY <3 the DoTs when cast by other Clerics, FVS, Savants and Wizards when....

I am playing my ...

Monk
Rogue
Horc UA
WSS Monk/Ftr/Pal

But what I really DONT get is why you have formed an opinion about DoTs like this.

Idgaf if <this character or that character> can solo/shortman <Epic/Elite Raids> using <Spells and Tactics>

A gd change to DoTs as they stand will hurt newer players while the Capped/MultiTR/EpicGeared crowd would notice little difference.

Give all players a break and quit the complaining about OP this and nerf that. Your ideas and opinions about this mechanic are just for YOUR benefit and those who want the game harder because they already have it all.

[SirValentine]

Umm.. the reason for that being the situation should be quite clear.

We have 11 classes. 6 physical combat classes. 2 caster classes. (and 3 hybrid classes, Cleric, FvS, bard). It is logical that melee classes should be three times as common.... because there's three times as many.

Nope, we have:
- 4 full caster classes (Wiz, Sorc, Clr, FvS)
- 3 hybrid classes (Bard, Pal, Rgr)
- 4 physical combat classes (Ftr, Barb, Monk, Rog).

Or, if you want to go with DDO's own interpretation, we have
- 4 Melee classes (Ftr, Barb, Pal, Monk)
- 4 Spell classes (Wiz, Sorc, Clr, FvS)
- 3 Specialist classes (Bard, Rog, Rgr)

Either way, there are just as many full-caster/spell classes as there are non-caster/melee classes.

(I know there's lots of divine-haters out there who want the Clr and FvS just to shut up, stay to the back and hjeal, but, sorry, Clr and FvS are just as much casting classes as Wiz and Sorc.)

But it's a silly argument anyway. There's no rule that there should be exactly as many Rogues as Wizards as Clerics as Barbarians in play on a server. There is no problem if some are more common and some are rarer.

It would be a sign of a problem if some were non-existent or some were way over-prevalent, of under- or over-power balance problems. But I haven't seen that on my sever. I see a good mix of classes. For example, since U9, I've run eVoN1 in parties with 5 melee and 1 divine, parties with 1 melee, 1 divine, and 4 arcanes, and parties with 3 melee and 3 divines. All runs were good. I prefer that to people thinking cookie-cutter parties of 4 melee, 1 divine, 1 arcane are the only way to go.

[Vallin]

While the fvs needs only a simple potentcy item and to press 1 button every 15 seconds.

Not everyone in the game plays an epic geared multi-TR eSoS wielding FvS. If people figured out how to build some optimal character and then drag 12 of them into a raid to bulldoze over a boss then good for them. That doesn't mean that we need to change a very functional and balanced form of DPS (like Divine Punishment).

When a standard healer is healing a standard party in a raid they are also worried about keeping raging barbarians alive and don't even always have the time to hit that button every 15 seconds. It is not that easy for MOST of the players in this game.

My reference point is not from someone who can't handle end-game; I play epic content almost exclusively (outside of TRing). I just really think people need to stop calling for nerfs based on a fractional percentage of the player base. It is getting really boring.

Vallin.

[pSINNa]

I see that a lot more players are playing divine characters these days.


I wonder why, funny that....


I used to see constant qq regarding the lack of divines available for pug quests and raids.


I don't seem to see those posts as much these days.


So.... lets nerf divines then shall we.....

Sigh, it's the short sightedness of cries for 'nerf' that gets to me sometimes.

Coit out~

[Khurse]

Not everyone in the game plays an epic geared multi-TR eSoS wielding FvS. If people figured out how to build some optimal character and then drag 12 of them into a raid to bulldoze over a boss then good for them. That doesn't mean that we need to change a very functional and balanced form of DPS (like Divine Punishment).

When a standard healer is healing a standard party in a raid they are also worried about keeping raging barbarians alive and don't even always have the time to hit that button every 15 seconds. It is not that easy for MOST of the players in this game.

Yes, hitting the button every 10 seconds or so does require a small amount of manual dexterity,the ability to track someones damage, as well as the ability to functionally realize that you can click one button and then another in fairly rapid succession.

However I am curious to how people can actually see these DOTs, with the obvious damage they're inflicting (again -with no save needed,no SR check, no fort to reduce damage)

Giving bosses an immunity would be stupid, giving them a save for either half damage or no damage would seem to actually offer game balance.

[geoffhanna]

However, my argument is that DoTs are only usefull on boss fights

Not at all. Commonly I drop a dot on a monster and then just ignore him and move on to the next. If I have too I might dance it. Or shield turtle. But that is it, the monster's fate is sealed, in one cast.

Compare that to FoD or PK where I have to worry about spell pen and saves and may have to Energy Drain before even casting the spell.

My take: I'm not a big nerf guy, but saves on DOTs would be a good thing.

p.s. our guild refers to that spell as Divine Penetration

[alexp80]

/not signed

really, at all.

Dots are useful ONLY against bosses, giving them a save will change nothing for top elite ppl (the ones asking for nerf) and destroy dps capability of all others reverting the game as pre U9.

If the problem is the power of the FvS Lord of the Blades, i remember anyone that to build a really powerful one is needed a HUGE amount of gear. And a well built dps will deal more damage than him anyway with same or less gear.

Dumping wis (that is not the casting stat, btw) cuts off lot of useful spells, and it's painful tradeoff to get decent-to-good melee capabilities.

[Vallin]

Yes, hitting the button every 10 seconds or so does require a small amount of manual dexterity,the ability to track someones damage, as well as the ability to functionally realize that you can click one button and then another in fairly rapid succession.

Khurse this is not a troll - but a serious question. Have you tried pugging a cleric into epic content lately? Perhaps your experiences are VERY different than mine, but my server is FULL of 200-300 hp clerics who have Terraza Sight and Epic cove stuff as their best gear - and they hit epic quests and DIE RAPIDLY. We bring less experienced people into our epic desert runs on a daily basis and I just do not see that Divine Punishment is OP as people say. Many players have trouble keeping themselves alive much less the party alive.

Granted, when my guild brings all their A-game characters we can roll over stuff pretty easily too - and we also run epic content with super-skilled players on our server so I understand that if ALL someone did is roll over epic content with the best players around it could get boring. I am just suggesting that this is an extremely SMALL percentage of the player base and DOES NOT merit a broad nerf.

Vallin.

[pSINNa]

Just a followup to my slightly pert previous post on this thread, regarding the main question "to add a save or not", without referring to the reasons for the OP to ask for it in the first place (the part i don't agree with much).


I could live with a save, but i wonder what the save would be based on.


Now i have to say i went through a stage of playing divines with dumped DC stats that were very heavy on melee up until recently.


They were great fun, but ultimately a bit limited. Bumping up to a 42str on a trip/stun specced horc fighter2/18fvs i recently TR'd gave me a lot of giggles, but had also cost me a lot of raid grinding to gear up to spec, (at least as much as my monk or ranger i was playing at the time), a lot of greensteel, and serious time and effort just planning the guy out before i even dreamed of rolling him in the first place.


When the DP was released i re-specced him to take advantage of it, and as a result lost an appreciable amount of hitpoints (lost toughness enhancements), lost healing power (had to drop empower heal to take the extra feat needed to qualify for AV2), and lost melee dps (had to drop some power attack enhancements to fit it all in as well).


The result was able to some things better, but in other quests where he had shined before he was merely 'good'.


The classic WF LOB that starts with wis-2 and char-2, has to live with a 35% arcane failure on his umd'd arcane scrolls and wands because of the addy body (for which they do without a feat as well), that has to sink ap's into healers amp as well as DR enhancements to fully realize the strength of being a WF fvs, and therefore pays for the privilege. And if they've run up 3 x sorc and 3 x wiz, then 3 previous fvs lives to get a useable DC and good spell pen with a lower casting stat i think they've earned the privilege there too.


You're starting to get the idea i hope.


I've gone back to full DC attribute building on my divines, at an appreciable sacrifice in weapon dps, in HP, and in DR to enjoy full DC casting in all spells again, not just DP, because i tend to enjoy it more.


I don't envy my dump stat divine brethren becuase when you look at it closely, in DDO, it's always a tradeoff (a large reason why i still play), you just may not see it watching them in action most of the time.


One spell that can do almost as much damage as a decently built sorcs cast (at a much large mana cost once you've stacked up 3 of them, and after you've been hit enough to proc the debuff, with the constant drain of keeping up the stack) is not really a game unbalancer. It has changed the playing field a little, but maybe not for the worse in my opinion.


I won't say anything about the 'press a button every 10 seconds or so' comments becuase this has gone on a fair bit already, suffice to say, it's not really like that running a divine in a full group raid or quest, even if you are a 'lazy healbot' :P, trust me.


Soz for the long, long read all, but i can't help but respond fully to some of these cries for nerf on this one, i really don't agree with the people that call for it.

[Razcar]

Nope, we have:
- 4 full caster classes (Wiz, Sorc, Clr, FvS)
- 3 hybrid classes (Bard, Pal, Rgr)
- 4 physical combat classes (Ftr, Barb, Monk, Rog).

Or, if you want to go with DDO's own interpretation, we have
- 4 Melee classes (Ftr, Barb, Pal, Monk)
- 4 Spell classes (Wiz, Sorc, Clr, FvS)
- 3 Specialist classes (Bard, Rog, Rgr)

Either way, there are just as many full-caster/spell classes as there are non-caster/melee classes..

Lol, what? You're saying that Paladins and Rangers aren't melee classes? That's new. But of course, Rangers are accomplished hybrids, capabable of both spellcasting offense and crowd-control - go go go Spike Growth! And Paladins... well there I have nothing. CSW against undead perhaps?

Look. Some classes overcome mob encounters through hitting stuff with a weapon (maybe a ranged one). Melees. Six of them in this game. Some of them might have a buff or two, but those are generally not for killing monsters.

Other classes defeat monsters through casting offensive spells, and seldom melee. Wait for it.... that's casters. We have two of those classes.

And then we have classes that can do both. They can crush enemies with spells, and/or with weapons. Those are the ones I call "Hybrids". Clerics, Bards and FvS's can defeat monsters with either spells or weapons. Three.

Six. Two. Three. You can mix it up a bit, of course, but that's the gist of it, and that's how the game plays. And I'm sorry if this sudden insight crushes your faith in the game knowledge of Turbine's marketing department (or whoever). Yeah, Monks are melee, but Rangers and Rogues are not. Sure. Who said something about type-casting Clerics and FvS's?

But it's a silly argument anyway. There's no rule that there should be exactly as many Rogues as Wizards as Clerics as Barbarians in play on a server. There is no problem if some are more common and some are rarer.

It would be a sign of a problem if some were non-existent or some were way over-prevalent, of under- or over-power balance problems. But I haven't seen that on my sever. I see a good mix of classes.[...]

I agree it is silly with some "rule" like that. But you made it up. I didn't argue that there should be more of any type, but that it's a fact that there are more melees than casters on at any given time, and that there are more melee classes than caster classes. And that those facts had something to do with there often being more melees than casters in raids. Previously.

[Chai]

I dont agree that saves are the answer.

I think the DOT spells effectiveness should be changed in relation to mob type. Constructs probable should take little to no light damage where undead should take purple number damage. Light should heal plant types.

There should be more conditions where light damage is sub optimal or doesnt work at all.

[kitsune_ko]

Mmm, so my FvS is the most overpowered class in game, and need to be on the recieving end of multiple nerfs (Limiting Leap of Faith, DoT saves) to bring it back into line?

Sorry; I guess I was just too busy with healing everyone else in the rest of the party, and trying to keep my uberly-overpowered 300HP, 35AC pure-healing-based FvS alive to continue healing, to notice that I was infact dominating all game content. My apologies for being so awesomely overpowered.

I do have to admit, I find the posts with "DoTs are overpowered; ...but not MY DoTs, they are just fine, its just other classes; nerf their DoTs, but dont touch mine" slighty amusing.

WF PM also have DoT spells and excellent self-healing capabilities, just like FvS. Strange how quickly that little fact is forgotten in the cry of "Nerf them! They can deal damage AND hjealz".

You know what I use Leap of Faith for? Damage avoidance when I get trash aggro in content that can kill me in 3 hits; and to leap across a room/area to get within range of somone in the party who need healing and is currently outside my range. Thats the extent of my "exploiting" of the Leap of Faith ability.

I dont kite in end-game raids, I don't solo anything using Leap of Faith and DoTs, ever. And I cannot recall ever seeing any FvS who does this uber-powered "DoT and Dash" attack that is breaking DDO.

I use Leap of Faith to keep me, and to keep the party alive when I am healing. Nerf Leap of Faith for every FvS, and I start dying more, and the party starts dying more.

You might be limiting the "less then 1%" who built an exploiter FvS with a serious nerfage, but your also damaging the 50% of FvS players that use it in a way that benefits the party thrugh better healing.

If I lose Leap of Faith; I can still turtle up behind a shield and self-heal when I get aggro; just dont come crying to me when the heals stop coming your way, becasue I have to spend more resources babysitting myself after this idiotic idea of nerf goes though.

[licho]

This is one of the choices that make me question whether the developers actually play in anything resembling currently accepted "end game" content, or whether they just continually run new toons through the Harbour.
(Or they all play casters)

Yes all devs playes casters and warforged, do you have any other question about reason behind game evolution?

Seriously, i support. Spells without save is generally bad idea. Even more if they are a potent one.
So i agree that DoTs (all of them) should receive save ( will for DP one, fort for arcane) if you make a save you will receive half dmg from whole stack, but if you fail save you will suffer whole stack in full power.

Of course it could be a need of adjusting boss saves, so on normal as long as i dont gimp your casting stat you are hitting in 75% cases, while hard/elite will demand more.

[mute_mayhem]

/signed

As much as I love my WF FvS, it's ******** that he does the same (if not more) damage with DP than my evoker FvS does/did.

Please add a save for half,
oh and don't take my wings away, that will make me very sad.

[Franke]

I can't help but wonder how much of this is "DoT envy"

There appears to be a constant barrage of nerf request posts,which, when the bat strikes, are quickly followed by doomsayers standing on soap boxes howling at the moon and threatening to leave the game.

Are DoT's powerful? Yes they are . . .but when the raid boss changes happen, and they get increased levels of fortification,more hit points and metamagics . . . well maybe then the power of DoT's will wane significantly.

[Razcar]

I can't help but wonder how much of this is "DoT envy"

There appears to be a constant barrage of nerf request posts,which, when the bat strikes, are quickly followed by doomsayers standing on soap boxes howling at the moon and threatening to leave the game.

Are DoT's powerful? Yes they are . . .but when the raid boss changes happen, and they get increased levels of fortification,more hit points and metamagics . . . well maybe then the power of DoT's will wane significantly.

Limerick-time!

There once was a Barb on DDO
Who said: this game is too easy, fo' sho'
so they added some Fort
to give the Barb some sport
Now he's crying 'bout DoTs on skid row

[Iaga]

And angel of vengeance gets huge bonuses to boost it to not only eqaul levels of the sorcerer equivalens, but even beyond them if they can manage to stack there light vulnerability debuff enough times.

Maybe it's just me, but, i don't see these mega stacks of debuffs reaching top tier very often. It also lasts for only 10 seconds - don;t the sorc debuffs last significantly longer and can be placed far more reliably?

While the fvs needs only a simple potentcy item and to press 1 button every 15 seconds.

I used to look forward to reading your posts when i first started playing Shade - but as others have pointed out, comments like that crop up so often that i can see why so many feel you are overly biased.

Or, still has no Save but base the damage on your Casting Stat?

Like Wisdom for Divine Punishment. The higher the wisdom, the stronger the damage is.

Fixes the dump stat melees problem.

I like that idea. It was the caster souls who needed the damage buff, not the melees.

[oldkraft]

if OP (Opening Poster) wct 1st occ. of sub. to afnos .....
then I might care about his post.

[phum]

(1) In many ways I agree that DP has problems- but I think it's the multiplicative, stacking condemnation rather than the base spell. Radiant Servants aren't owning the world with it, after all.

Agree completely. But I do also agree with Shade, that since it's very rarely resisted, it should be less powerful than the arcane ones.

[grodon9999]

Are DoT's powerful? Yes they are . . .but when the raid boss changes happen, and they get increased levels of fortification,more hit points and metamagics . . . well maybe then the power of DoT's will wane significantly.

you seem to have cause and effect mixed up.

And the OP's main toon is a caster.