Fabricator's Bracers testing

[LeLoric]

Pulled a pair and did some testing with them.

Testing was done in Lord of blades raid adventure area.

Character used 18 ftr/2 rog human stalwart 3

1st test:

S/B fighting style. Weapon used Epic Sirrocco w/ swashbuckler (low dmg weapon that allowed for more consecutive swings before mob died and also caused less incoming dmg due to trip effect so less time was spent healing. Haste up full time.

25 mobs killed.

30 average swings per mob.

total fabricator procs: 32

Fabricator procs per mob: 1.28

fabricator proc percentage. ~4.3%

2 chain procs (proc occuring before first wore off): 6 total

3 chain procs: 0

As a funny little side note I actually saw 3 blindness effects from sirocco meaning a failed save of a very low dc effect is more common than three chained procs.


Test 2:

Same character using TWF with all three feats. Weapon Set. Epic sirocco/Epic chaosblade. Haste up full time. Any mobs where I had to heal myself while a proc was active had that data discounted and isn't used in this testing. Two epic vorpals were discarded also.

Mobs Killed: 25

Average Swing per mob: 20

Total Procs: 30

Procs per mob: 1.2

Percentage proc rate: ~6% (Since I am getting 1.8 attacks per swing the larger number here makes sense)

2 chain procs: 6

3 chain procs: 1

Conclusions. The buff was up roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the time it felt like in either style although it did seem a little more often in twf as it should. At this rate I have a hard time going along with the theory that it's better than the epic claw set (which I think it shouldn't be but I've heard this talk going around.)

+4 str is +2 dmg and +2 to hit but at only about 33-50% of the time fighting. The set bonus gives another +2 to hit and +2 dmg. Both have 20% incite.

So that leaves +2 exc con and heavy fort on claw bracers and 30% healing amp and 5 stacking intim on gloves.

The Fab set gives +2 to hit full time and another +2 part time which is relevant in some epic content. the 15 balance is really nothing significant just a nice perk. That means the fabricator's gloves had better be really really good if we are gonna see this replace a full claw set.

Now claw gloves epic gem of many facets and Fab bracers are an option but to have the fab set just outright replace the claw set both items for both is just pretty unrealistic claw gloves will still be in high demand.

The only other relevant argument is the bracers for an ac build. Now here it's most likely competing with the Tharaak bracersm I say this because if a character needs this for a +8 armor bracer slot then it's not an option at all). For a character at max dex bonus already this is pretty easy to always go with the +2 ac versus only part-time. Now a character without max dex bonus or not hitting full max dex (some characters are this way if using duealist leathers) its a full time +2 versus a part time +4, The part time +4 con is also really nice especially in the new raids where max hp values should be fairly high for a tanking character. All this being said the temporary nature of the buffs can be hard to rely completely on and +2 ac 50% of the time isn't enough to cover -2 ac the other 50% most likely. Mabar cloak and these bracers may be an option but then you start to nudge into the area of not being able to fit 3 pc abashai or other important gear too.

[Beethoven]

+1 for the thorough test of the proc rate.

It matches my observations/thoughts so far. Claw set still beats the bracers for most dps toons. They can be the superior choice for some AC builds (especially if they don't have their Dex bonus maxxed out).

What also seems an interesting option to me is Fabricator Bracers and epic Charged Gauntlets with greater shocking blow to offset the dps loss for not getting the set bonus. It adds an augment slot and helps fit a 3-piece Abishai set in. AC toons could complete the set with Helm and Boots, or make their cloak slot a toggle between Mabar (AC mode) and Envenomed (dps mode).

I have to admit, I am starting to grow rather fond about what they did there and looks like they managed to pull off getting some new loots in there that is useful, not necessarily better for all builds but good for some and without making other loot obsolete.

[grodon9999]

Thanks, I wonder if the proc rate was lowered because I remember it being almost a perpetual buff last week. means I don't have to worry about fitting this on my mooks who already have claw-set!

[maddmatt70]

It is going to be useful for ac pajama wearer builds. You can wear the epic sirens belt for the +8 armor bonus.

On my rogue grumblegut which is a 13 rogue 6 paladin 1 monk its going to be quite useful. Even proccing 33% to 50% of the time that will make a difference I would guess in some of these new raids unless the raids are designed with shield bearing ac builds in mind.

It is also nice on midnight greeting dex based attacks of which we will see some more of in the future.

You mentioned Claw set vs. the fabricator set, but what of option #3 Epic Charged Gauntlet and Fabricator bracer with say an epic bloodstone in trinket slot? The other question I have is does your calculations include the doublestrike buff?

[Dolphious]

The only other relevant argument is the bracers for an ac build. Now here it's most likely competing with the Tharaak bracersm I say this because if a character needs this for a +8 armor bracer slot then it's not an option at all). For a character at max dex bonus already this is pretty easy to always go with the +2 ac versus only part-time. Now a character without max dex bonus or not hitting full max dex (some characters are this way if using duealist leathers) its a full time +2 versus a part time +4, The part time +4 con is also really nice especially in the new raids where max hp values should be fairly high for a tanking character. All this being said the temporary nature of the buffs can be hard to rely completely on and +2 ac 50% of the time isn't enough to cover -2 ac the other 50% most likely. Mabar cloak and these bracers may be an option but then you start to nudge into the area of not being able to fit 3 pc abashai or other important gear too.

You can slot +8 armor as a belt (epic siren's) and +2 dodge on cloak (epic mabar), so the bracer slot isn't a must (but yeah, that is yet another slot devoted, and AC builds are hell to slot anyway). And since we're probably talking about an air stance monk or tempest so the number of attacks is going to be high. The proc rate does seem kind of low for a S&B tank.

The real question is whether +4 ac will make AC viable in epics for these builds, and the answer I think is: Probably not. right now you can sustain mid 80s with a self buffed perfectly geared monk, and most epic mobs hit you on a 2. I haven't tested it myself, but my understanding is that you need about 100-110 to start seeing a benefit from AC against most epic mobs. We're still a long way from reaching that kind of AC on a sustainable basis under normal circumstances (ie. we're not talking about fighter tanks benefiting from pally tank auras and other impractical situational nonsense).

[edit] +1 for the testing, ty

[Indoran]

+1 for the thorough test of the proc rate.

It matches my observations/thoughts so far. Claw set still beats the bracers for most dps toons. They can be the superior choice for some AC builds (especially if they don't have their Dex bonus maxxed out).

What also seems an interesting option to me is Fabricator Bracers and epic Charged Gauntlets with greater shocking blow to offset the dps loss for not getting the set bonus. It adds an augment slot and helps fit a 3-piece Abishai set in. AC toons could complete the set with Helm and Boots, or make their cloak slot a toggle between Mabar (AC mode) and Envenomed (dps mode).

I have to admit, I am starting to grow rather fond about what they did there and looks like they managed to pull off getting some new loots in there that is useful, not necessarily better for all builds but good for some and without making other loot obsolete.

agreed we will see some drop in the price of claw set, but it's still going to be a nice set to have. not like fabricator is going to kill it (at least for now)

Options are good... give you the chance to be good at your job without being a clone...

[Shade]

So whats the guess on the procrate..
(The op is mysteriously blank for me )

by my accounts they are pretty low unfortunately after some more heavy testing. I couldn't even maintain it during constantl battle with the lord of blades =/

[Diyon]

My acrobat's +60% attack speed is going to be fun taking advantage of this.


Also, comparing the two sets might help if you had both pieces of one of the sets to compare with.

[grodon9999]

Thing is . . . with a 6% proc rate . . . a TWFer gets about 3.2 attacks a second . . . would be about 1 proc every 6.25 second on average that lasts 10 seconds . . . this buff might just just be perpetual when tanking a raid boss.

[LeLoric]

As others have pointed out there are other combos. I tried to just do a quick compare for the claw set vs the fab set which even then is hard as we dont know what fab gloves do but anyways in that scenario I just can't see the gloves being good enough to overcome the difference.

For ac sets I find that if you use the sirens set for your +8 ac you tend to not leave room for 3 piece abashai (i know it's possible but not likely with other gear needed also). Thats 3 ac you lose there. My feeling here is it's probably time for the pajama wearers to start ditching the icy's. As strange as it sounds losing that 4 ac can now be made up elsewhere and you get more versatility out of your armor than just +4 ac.

[grodon9999]

So whats the guess on the procrate..
(The op is mysteriously blank for me )

by my accounts they are pretty low unfortunately after some more heavy testing. I couldn't even maintain it during constantl battle with the lord of blades =/

Bah, that shoots my theory to hell.

[grodon9999]

For ac sets I find that if you use the sirens set for your +8 ac you tend to not leave room for 3 piece abashai (i know it's possible but not likely with other gear needed also). Thats 3 ac you lose there. My feeling here is it's probably time for the pajama wearers to start ditching the icy's. As strange as it sounds losing that 4 ac can now be made up elsewhere and you get more versatility out of your armor than just +4 ac.

Please elaborate, perhaps in another thread.

And let me guess . . . red scale for 8 armor? That's SO much easier to get than bracers or a siren's belt

[maddmatt70]

As others have pointed out there are other combos. I tried to just do a quick compare for the claw set vs the fab set which even then is hard as we dont know what fab gloves do but anyways in that scenario I just can't see the gloves being good enough to overcome the difference.

For ac sets I find that if you use the sirens set for your +8 ac you tend to not leave room for 3 piece abashai (i know it's possible but not likely with other gear needed also). Thats 3 ac you lose there. My feeling here is it's probably time for the pajama wearers to start ditching the icy's. As strange as it sounds losing that 4 ac can now be made up elsewhere and you get more versatility out of your armor than just +4 ac.

Huh

Non tower raid:
Epic Helm of Frost
Epic Envenomed Cloak
Crafted +2 dodge Trinket/w lg guild slot
Icy Rainment
Epic Sirens Neck/you can also put shroud min 2 +45 hp item here if you need the hp
Epic Sirens Belt
Chattering Ring
Epic Time Sensing Goggles
Epic Silver Concord Ring or + tower ring w/+2 dexterity
Fabricator Bracer
Fabricator Gloves
Epic Boots of Corrision

Can have a shroud weapon with +4 insight ac if you use the shroud min 2 +45 hp item.

Tower Raid:
Just swap Fabricator gloves with epic charged gauntlets.

[LeLoric]

Please elaborate, perhaps in another thread.

And let me guess . . . red scale for 8 armor? That's SO much easier to get than bracers or a siren's belt

Red scale would be ideal choice sure but theres also Epic ironweave with a blue slot. I wasn't talking about ease of obtaining though more about efficincy of gear. Raiments just provide

As for elaboration. Dropping icy means not having to use sirens set. As such it then allows use of epic grims bracelet for your +3 dodge freeing up ring for something like epic silver concord for +1 more ac. If the further slot consolidation also makes the use of three piece abashai when you weren't using it before then you've made up the +4 ac and gained much more utility in in the slots available on these items as well as the use of one tod set to improve dps (ravager most likely). The big loss here is probably the +4 insight which means your off hand weapon can no longer be a crafted weapon but more likely a min II. With the new crafting also having a +4 awareness this may become less important. Also ravager probably makes up for the offhand dmg lost.

[LeLoric]

Huh

Non tower raid:
Epic Helm of Frost
Epic Envenomed Cloak
Crafted +2 dodge Trinket/w lg guild slot
Icy Rainment
Epic Sirens Neck/you can also put shroud min 2 +45 hp item here if you need the hp
Epic Sirens Belt
Chattering Ring
Epic Time Sensing Goggles
Epic Silver Concord Ring or + tower ring w/+2 dexterity
Fabricator Bracer
Fabricator Gloves
Epic Boots of Corrision

Can have a shroud weapon with +4 insight ac if you use the shroud min 2 +45 hp item.

Tower Raid:
Just swap Fabricator gloves with epic charged gauntlets.

This setup just sacrifices too much dps for my tastes here norg. If I ran my ac build like this trying to tank tod I'd never hold aggro against the people I play with.

It works for you hey great it just wouldn't for me. There are many others in the situation of not baing able to fit in 3 piece abashai (this is especially heightened in tod where boots slot is taken but is also evident elsewhere). Not counting 45 hp item in my ideal tanking set is a bad idea also as if I generally want to ac tank something it's elite tod or one of the new raids and max hp there is important.

[LeLoric]

So whats the guess on the procrate..
(The op is mysteriously blank for me )

by my accounts they are pretty low unfortunately after some more heavy testing. I couldn't even maintain it during constantl battle with the lord of blades =/

Lol I see someone is still mad that I said his ESOS is slightly overpowered and unbalancing.

[grodon9999]

Red scale would be ideal choice sure but theres also Epic ironweave with a blue slot. I wasn't talking about ease of obtaining though more about efficincy of gear. Raiments just provide

As for elaboration. Dropping icy means not having to use sirens set. As such it then allows use of epic grims bracelet for your +3 dodge freeing up ring for something like epic silver concord for +1 more ac. If the further slot consolidation also makes the use of three piece abashai when you weren't using it before then you've made up the +4 ac and gained much more utility in in the slots available on these items as well as the use of one tod set to improve dps (ravager most likely). The big loss here is probably the +4 insight which means your off hand weapon can no longer be a crafted weapon but more likely a min II. With the new crafting also having a +4 awareness this may become less important. Also ravager probably makes up for the offhand dmg lost.

The necklace is NOT an option on a Stalwart defender, the extra boosts and threat generation are critical. I know this from testing with some of Meat's clones who have Claw but don't have the stalwart set yet, Meat holds aggro over people they lose it to.

Regarding abishai the best 3-piece option on a tank is still cloak - bracer - helm. Boots are out of the question because of Horototh and you'll want Claw Gloves for healing amp. The combo though does take Mabar out of the equation so it's really only a net gain of 1 AC.

Regarding weapons, we will soon have DR-breaking lightning IIs thanks to artificers. Having insight AC on an off-hand is only about a 10 DPS loss.

Gensai did say he wants to change the epic Gem of Many facets to work with either component to give the set bonuns. Soon Siren's Belt will give +4 insight AC along along with 8 Armor with the gem. That Belt means you can go with Chattering Ring and either have HBGLoBs or dual Holy/Shock/Shock lightning weapons on a TWFing pajama tank.

[LeLoric]

The necklace is NOT an option on a Stalwart defender, the extra boosts and threat generation are critical. I know this from testing with some of Meat's clones who have Claw but don't have the stalwart set yet, Meat holds aggro over people they lose it to.

Regarding abishai the best 3-piece option on a tank is still cloak - bracer - helm. Boots are out of the question because of Horototh and you'll want Claw Gloves for healing amp. The combo though does take Mabar out of the equation so it's really only a net gain of 1 AC.

Regarding weapons, we will soon have DR-breaking lightning IIs thanks to artificers. Having insight AC on an off-hand is only about a 10 DPS loss.

Gensai did say he wants to change the epic Gem of Many facets to work with either component to give the set bonuns. Soon Siren's Belt will give +4 insight AC along along with 8 Armor with the gem. That Belt means you can go with Chattering Ring and either have HBGLoBs or dual Holy/Shock/Shock lightning weapons on a TWFing pajama tank.

I don't see many stalwarts wearing icy though junk and that was the point. I'd rather go Gloves-helm-cloak for three piece tanking on a stalwart. The bracers are really just a wasted slot. Non tod I'd swap boots in for gloves. Course I already run fairly high healing amp on my tank already enough to where heal scrolls top me off so the 30% is overkill.

As for Lit II's niether of the new raids are gonna be good for lit II's. They don't break dr and stuff is highly resistant to lightning. I believe they have 50% absorb from testing. Min II is the only shroud weapon that will break dr of LOB. The titans in Master artificer req addy for dr also.

The big thing thoug is if you are having issues fitting in gear then Icy's may be something to look at for a pajama wearing tank.

[maddmatt70]

This setup just sacrifices too much dps for my tastes here norg. If I ran my ac build like this trying to tank tod I'd never hold aggro against the people I play with.

It works for you hey great it just wouldn't for me. There are many others in the situation of not baing able to fit in 3 piece abashai (this is especially heightened in tod where boots slot is taken but is also evident elsewhere). Not counting 45 hp item in my ideal tanking set is a bad idea also as if I generally want to ac tank something it's elite tod or one of the new raids and max hp there is important.

hmm I do not know what your ac tank's build is exactly. I think my current setup has less hate/dps then the proposed setup and I do not have any trouble keeping aggro, but I do have pally defender 1 and pally righteousness which are huge admittedly. I agree I will probably keep the +45 hp item and use a shroud +4 insight weapon like I do currently. The only other issue for me is having someone make an unbound trinket which can not be done until next mod comes out(note: finding an unbound trinket is not trivial either).

I think Leloric that the ac thresholds required are going up for all raids and the new raids will require an ac tank to have high ac thresholds. I do not have any evidence for this, but just my gut feeling. For instance I am guessing that elite tower threshold is going to require something 5-10 pts higher then it does now and the new raids on epic/elite will be similiar.

[LeLoric]

hmm I do not know what your ac tank's build is exactly. I think my current setup has less hate/dps then the proposed setup and I do not have any trouble keeping aggro, but I do have pally defender 1 and pally righteousness which are huge admittedly. I agree I will probably keep the +45 hp item and use a shroud +4 insight weapon like I do currently. The only other issue for me is having someone make an unbound trinket which can not be done until next mod comes out(note: finding an unbound trinket is not trivial either).

I think Leloric that the ac thresholds required are going up for all raids and the new raids will require an ac tank to have high ac thresholds. I do not have any evidence for this, but just my gut feeling. For instance I am guessing that elite tower threshold is going to require something 5-10 pts higher then it does now and the new raids on epic/elite will be similiar.

I cant say for elite tower but I can say for the new raids that it is pretty high. It's not the best example but I do know that elite reaver had little to no increase in his to hit. His dmg though is higher.

That said there's are some increases in ac through artificers being added. Both level one spells too so even splashes could carry it.

I would say that concerning the new raids the tanking ability has shifted more from the pajama wearers to the high hp shield toting stalwarts with shield mastery feats. Not that the pajama wearers can't do it but the defender's will be the better choice often.